Cheating--Sports ethics survey

"inside the framework" isn't cheating. correct me if i'm wrong, but every official i've ever talked to says that holding is defined as "outside the framework". defensive players are allowed to use their hands, so i teach my guys to do the same, within the rules as they have been explained to me.

as lion said, i don't teach my players to be dirty, but cutting is legal in texas, so we teach it. same with holding. as the rules are interpreted, "inside the framework" is not illegal therefore not cheating.

i have been accused of being a little rough around the edges so maybe i don't know of which i speak, but thats my story and i'm sticking to it.

It isn't cheating - it is the defense's excuse for not getting to the quarterback - if we stopped doing it what would those guys have to complain about?

We teach "Punch, and get those hands up under the shoulder pads..." As far as cheating, I just don't see why a coach would do it - how can you hold the team to any standard when they see you will "cheat" in other areas? Another one of our catch phrases is "Within the rules of football" which usually applies to hitting and tackling. We are going to knock the crap out of them, within the rules of football!

^{we don't grab cloth
we try to grab the shoulder pads themselves underneath the cloth}

Exactly.

As Tog said our aim is to control the breastplate (on O and D) which is cleary within the rules and not "cheating"

I don't believe we have ever been called for grabbing cloth within the frame of a defender. So if that is in fact cheating, then no ref I have ever met at any level knows about it. Including Youth, HS, College, etc.

Thank you saint rad..I was looking for that definition.

When was that rule modified? I would be interested in seeing the poll answered on the basis that it is illegal to do so.

This makes the poll pretty much void. I will have to think of another example lol

If you teach them to grab cloth you are teaching them to hold, and break the rules. That why I and everyone else teaches then to grap the breastplate-its inside the framework, and therefore not holding and not illegal or unethical

What do you guys think about defensive players cutting lead blockers

Here is the answer from the other section

"REPLY: Holding is defined in NF 9-2-1c (offensive) and NF 9-2-3c (defensive). The two rules are almost identical except that the rule against defensive holding does allow the defender to 'hold' the runner. Wouldn't it be a strange game if they prohibited that!!

The rule says that a player shall not "Use his hands, arms or legs to hook, lock, clamp, grasp, encircle or hold in an effort to restrain an opponent."

The key word in the rule is "restrain," that is hold in such a way that it prevents the player from moving where he wants to go. There is an allowance for the defense to momentarily grasp and pull aside a blocker so that the defender can get to the ball carrier--but only for that reason.

I wrote an article on holding that explains not only the rule, but how it's enforced for all levels of football. If you send me an e-mail (masucci at att dot com), I'd be glad to forward it on to you."

I found it interesting. So if a defender chucks an offensive lineman without the ball carrier explicitly nearby, that is technically holding.

I also think it is funny that we decide when the rules are important.

If you have ever went 1mph over the speed limit, you have broken the law. If you have ever crossed a street no at the corner, you have broken the law. If you ever changed lanes in an intersection, you have broken the law. If you have ever crossed the street went it said "Don't Walk" you have broken the law. If you have ever taken the "Do Not Remove by Penalty of Law" tag of your bed, you have broken the law. In some states if you have ever not worn your seatbelt, you have broken the law. If you have done anything of these in the presence of child, you have taught them it is ok to do this.

The enforcement of the rule is what matters. If they want to enforce the holding rule and make people like Hugh Wyatt happy, then they better enforce it better. They enforce it properly in the spirit of the game.

Knighter...that is the exact point I was making once I got the official wording of the rule. I just didn't have time to post the excerpt from the other section. Cloth, Breastplate, inside framework, outside framework.....are all irrelevant. Grasping and trying to keep him from going where he wants to go is holding.

The "justification" processes we use as coaches "refs don't enforce it..etc." are the problem, and I think THAT is what leads to the results in the ethics study.

I teach my DBs that if the WR has a step on them and the deep ball is coming and he can't get into position, you bet grab him and take the 15 yard penalty rather than the TD. That's not the normal technique I teach, but I'll take it over a TD. So if that's cheating, yep, I cheat.

At youth level in the eighties we were taught to throw dirt in eyes, grab jerseys, and our cheerleaders even had brawls with the other teams cheerleaders during games. Ironically, I will be the head coach of the same team, nearly 30 years later. I will not be teaching nor suggesting anything but playing fairly.

Players learn a lot about life through football and tend to emulate their teachers, regardless of the reasons whether winning or trying to gain an edge, teaching them to cheat, cheats them in the long run. When you find them seeking the easy way in life and cheating to get there, don't be suprised. It's what you taught them.

Winning is important to a team but it is how you got there that is important. If it has come down to cheating to win, i'd rather lose.

I voted no for a few reasons, #1.- I've taught hands and shoulder blocking techniques and really didn't think it was necessary to grab anything, if you used good fundamentals, were in good condition and athletic enough for the position (just a preference though). #2.- Every officiating crew or individual members of the same, didn't seem to interpret this rule as Tim has stated so well! (so why set yourself up for arguments or 10 yd drive killing penaltys?) again, just my own opinion lol! #3.- Technically speaking, we liked them to punch,push while keeping your feet under you and moving, sometimes having to reestablish inside position during handfighting, then as the defender trys to make his escape move to the ball ,(sometimes leaving himself a little off balance), you can get that final explosive shove, putting him on the turf. Grasping, actually seemed to make this more difficult?