orion320
Sophomore Member
"Don't tell me about the labor just show me the baby!"
Posts: 211
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Post by orion320 on Aug 17, 2014 17:07:41 GMT -6
I think the way the game is coached has changed in the past 15-20 years. When I was in HS ('98-'02) we had true Double Sessions (8-11 am then 5-8 pm) and now many states have outlawed "Double Sessions" and adopted "Acclimatization" practices which are limited to 2 hours a day for several days. Of course players will say coaches are "soft" but a lot of it is out of their control.
The same goes for "Hitting" days and drills. Coaches today choose to limit the amount of hitting and to the ground tackling due to the risk of concussions and changes in law going full pads.
Football has now become a year round commitment with weights being stressed more than when I played and more practices/camp in June and July, along with more of an emphasis on 7 on 7's. There may be a perception of coaches 'getting soft' but I think that perception is misconstrued as coaches do more in June and July now than they did in the past. When August rolls around kids are stronger, in better shape, and are familiar with the x's and o's. The need for extreme conditioning (at least where I am at) are over, most kids are already in shape due to what we do in the summer.
Also, as coaches gain more experience I think they learn that conditioning is more of a waste of practice time than anything. I believe that conditioning should be done during individual segment time, team time, and weightroom time.. We very rarely take time out of practice to condition. That gets done during the school day in PE/Weightroom and Summer weights.
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Post by Wingtman on Aug 17, 2014 19:31:47 GMT -6
With all due respect to the old guard, are we not more educated now then say 15 years ago? The need for 3 hour two a days, with one water break in 101 degree weather does more damage then good? Summers are not about sitting around the pool, chasing the ladies around, but about 7 0n 7 and work outs. I think the game has evolved from where it was 15 years ago, and thus coaches have evolved as well.
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Post by fantom on Aug 17, 2014 19:42:29 GMT -6
With all due respect to the old guard, are we not more educated now then say 15 years ago? The need for 3 hour two a days, with one water break in 101 degree weather does more damage then good? Summers are not about sitting around the pool, chasing the ladies around, but about 7 0n 7 and work outs. I think the game has evolved from where it was 15 years ago, and thus coaches have evolved as well. With all due respect the "old guard" haven't been the ones who are calling anybody soft.
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Post by mountainman on Aug 17, 2014 22:16:37 GMT -6
I think the way the game is coached has changed in the past 15-20 years. When I was in HS ('98-'02) we had true Double Sessions (8-11 am then 5-8 pm) and now many states have outlawed "Double Sessions" and adopted "Acclimatization" practices which are limited to 2 hours a day for several days. Of course players will say coaches are "soft" but a lot of it is out of their control. The same goes for "Hitting" days and drills. Coaches today choose to limit the amount of hitting and to the ground tackling due to the risk of concussions and changes in law going full pads. Football has now become a year round commitment with weights being stressed more than when I played and more practices/camp in June and July, along with more of an emphasis on 7 on 7's. There may be a perception of coaches 'getting soft' but I think that perception is misconstrued as coaches do more in June and July now than they did in the past. When August rolls around kids are stronger, in better shape, and are familiar with the x's and o's. The need for extreme conditioning (at least where I am at) are over, most kids are already in shape due to what we do in the summer. Also, as coaches gain more experience I think they learn that conditioning is more of a waste of practice time than anything. I believe that conditioning should be done during individual segment time, team time, and weightroom time.. We very rarely take time out of practice to condition. That gets done during the school day in PE/Weightroom and Summer weights. I think this is very true. We have these kids in the weight room 5 days a week throughout the school year from 7th to 12th grade. We also do spring ball, weights 3 days per week in the summer, 7 on 7 3-4 nights per week with a tournament almost every weekend, California camp, pre-season camp, etc. These kids stay in shape, and know the x's and o's much better than they used to. Because of this, the need to do crazy conditioning like we all did as players has become less. Also the need to cram the entire playbook in during 2 a days has diminished. We haven't changed much in 7 years. My son is in 7th grade and can give me our entire playbook and what everyone does and he plays guard. The year round aspect and the fact that many coaches in good programs have vertically aligned their systems, allow the kids to know the systems much better. Another issue is the divergence of offensive systems that we see. The need to develop a players ability to play in space is at a premium rather than the ability to bang their head into the meat grinder was when we played. Back when I played if someone would have lined up in trips, we would have had to call a timeout. Now these kids adjust to a multiple of sets, different personnel groups, screen game, power run, option, zone/red, etc. I really appreciate the thoughts on this post. It has caused me to really think how our program has evolved and why we do what we do. Also, how can we continue to evolve to make it better.
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Post by joker31 on Aug 17, 2014 23:19:44 GMT -6
Thanks for all the responses, I guess the "soft" part for me is less to do with physical demanding than demanding excellence from the players. We work out harder now than I ever did as a player, and do more football stuff than ever before, and I only stopped playing HS football 6 years ago.
That said, I think demanding excellence from the kids and having consequences when it doesn't happen has slipped. I will bring this up with him, because we have similar talent to our most successful team in program history.
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Post by blb on Aug 18, 2014 5:06:35 GMT -6
That said, I think demanding excellence from the kids and having consequences when it doesn't happen has slipped. I will bring this up with him, because we have similar talent to our most successful team in program history.
Purely speculation but could be due to getting overruled-not supported from above on administering "consequences" after parental complaints.
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Post by s73 on Aug 18, 2014 6:03:32 GMT -6
Just so you guys understand, I am a former player turned coach who is very loyal to the HC. He is a good friend of mine and we have a lot of trust in each other. However, a friend/former teammate of mine has joined the staff from the youth program and we began to talk of how the HC has become "soft" over time (even the DC has since then, who was also our coach) especially compared to when he was coaching us. He never had kids back then, but now has two and I believe this is the root of it. I'm not sure this happens naturally, because I'm sure there's coaches out there who started to have kids but still stayed stern and tough. My question is, how do you bring this up to the HC? Especially if you think by him being a little tougher/demanding on the kids would help the team reach their potential? First off. The game has gotten soft. Kids have gotten soft. Second of all. Never question the HC. Sent from my VS980 4G using proboards I don't agree w/ this. Yes, they may take themselves out sooner than we used to, but that's b/c they are being told consistently that if their head hurts it's a concussion and they will wind up a vegetable or kill themselves due to dementia as they age. But the truth of the matter is many of us are old enough to know that when the school year ended we wouldn't hardly see a FB for 3 months. Now kids are competing all summer. Sorry to ruin the "Al Bundy moment of greatness" but kids are bigger, stronger and in some cases tougher, some cases softer. But a sweeping generalization is just that. Plenty of tough kids out there. I know b/c I have to coach against a ton of them. JMO.
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Post by joker31 on Aug 18, 2014 7:48:33 GMT -6
That said, I think demanding excellence from the kids and having consequences when it doesn't happen has slipped. I will bring this up with him, because we have similar talent to our most successful team in program history.
Purely speculation but could be due to getting overruled-not supported from above on administering "consequences" after parental complaints.
I don't think so, we have very good parent, admin and community support overall. There will always be the occasional parental complaint, but nothing in regards to that.
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Post by dubber on Aug 18, 2014 13:19:13 GMT -6
So did you talk with him?
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Post by 33coach on Aug 18, 2014 13:26:58 GMT -6
First off. The game has gotten soft. Kids have gotten soft. Second of all. Never question the HC. Sent from my VS980 4G using proboards I don't agree w/ this. Yes, they may take themselves out sooner than we used to, but that's b/c they are being told consistently that if their head hurts it's a concussion and they will wind up a vegetable or kill themselves due to dementia as they age. But the truth of the matter is many of us are old enough to know that when the school year ended we wouldn't hardly see a FB for 3 months. Now kids are competing all summer. Sorry to ruin the "Al Bundy moment of greatness" but kids are bigger, stronger and in some cases tougher, some cases softer. But a sweeping generalization is just that. Plenty of tough kids out there. I know b/c I have to coach against a ton of them. JMO. i have tough kids as well, but im talking about the pure statistics of it. there has been a movement in football to create a "kinder, gentler game" which is a GOOD thing. i dont see a need to go back to the days of 1 million laps and 3-a-days with no water in the summer...do you? kids are taught to walk away from conflict, and showing aggression is a bad thing in schools. so how do you expect a coach to get in a kids face and yell, scream, cuss without causing a school board hearing? you cant. that is my point, the kids HAVE changed, the game HAS changed. and we need to work within that. me personally, i think its all for the best. we should be teaching, not screaming. and my other point stands no matter what you believe. ITS HIS PROGRAM, you can ask, but you should let the guy run his program how he wants. hes the header. follow or leave.
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Post by indian1 on Aug 18, 2014 19:14:18 GMT -6
Assistant coaches always have the biggest balls. I tell my guys that all the time. "When I was sitting in your seat, I had the biggest balls in the room too". Everybody thinks it was tougher when they played and assistants always know just what the HC should do. Wait until you get to wear the pants boys.
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Post by coachphillip on Aug 19, 2014 8:42:35 GMT -6
I don't think that's where the OP is coming from. If he feels there's been a drop in the accepted standard of the program or that his HC isn't holding players accountable then it is HIS JOB to tell the HC that. I don't think that he's being insubordinate by telling a guy he's built a relationship with that maybe he's getting soft and it might be hurting the program.
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Post by fantom on Aug 19, 2014 8:51:32 GMT -6
Thanks for all the responses, I guess the "soft" part for me is less to do with physical demanding than demanding excellence from the players. We work out harder now than I ever did as a player, and do more football stuff than ever before, and I only stopped playing HS football 6 years ago. That said, I think demanding excellence from the kids and having consequences when it doesn't happen has slipped. I will bring this up with him, because we have similar talent to our most successful team in program history. Can you give specific examples? Your description of the situation has been too vague for us to really evaluate the situation.
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Post by CoachCP on Aug 19, 2014 8:56:01 GMT -6
As practices become shorter, running has become less important. Re-repping non-important plays becomes less important.
Kid doesn't want to practice? Sit on the bench. I'll give the kid who wants to play reps. There's obviously exceptions for special kids in certain circumstances, but I don't have too much time for anything besides 5-10 up downs. I also don't have time for kids who don't want to practice.
A sprint (more like a jog...) around the role takes too much time.
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Post by joker31 on Aug 20, 2014 1:53:02 GMT -6
Thanks for all the responses, I guess the "soft" part for me is less to do with physical demanding than demanding excellence from the players. We work out harder now than I ever did as a player, and do more football stuff than ever before, and I only stopped playing HS football 6 years ago. That said, I think demanding excellence from the kids and having consequences when it doesn't happen has slipped. I will bring this up with him, because we have similar talent to our most successful team in program history. Can you give specific examples? Your description of the situation has been too vague for us to really evaluate the situation. A perfect example was today. We've always had the rule where kids are not allowed to walk on the field, pretty standard for most programs. He's reiterated to the coaching staff how important this is. Many of the coaches here are teachers so I'll equate this to a classroom. When you get a new class in the school year, you always want to be stern with your class expectations. Kids will see if they can cross that line within the first two weeks, and if a kid finds he can get away with certain things, you're screwed as a teacher for the rest of the year. You learn to be extremely strict to start, then ease up a the school year goes. Perfect example was players walking on the field. Instead of making it crystal clear that there is no walking, whether by yelling it or calling them in, he says "Boy, I'm seeing a lot of walking" without any real threat. Well the kids kept on walking from drill to drill for the rest of the day.
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Post by spos21ram on Aug 20, 2014 3:48:58 GMT -6
Can you give specific examples? Your description of the situation has been too vague for us to really evaluate the situation. A perfect example was today. We've always had the rule where kids are not allowed to walk on the field, pretty standard for most programs. He's reiterated to the coaching staff how important this is. Many of the coaches here are teachers so I'll equate this to a classroom. When you get a new class in the school year, you always want to be stern with your class expectations. Kids will see if they can cross that line within the first two weeks, and if a kid finds he can get away with certain things, you're screwed as a teacher for the rest of the year. You learn to be extremely strict to start, then ease up a the school year goes. Perfect example was players walking on the field. Instead of making it crystal clear that there is no walking, whether by yelling it or calling them in, he says "Boy, I'm seeing a lot of walking" without any real threat. Well the kids kept on walking from drill to drill for the rest of the day. Your staff knows the HC hates walking on the field yet YOU or another staff member didn't say anything to the players that were walking? If I knew our HC hated something, then I would say something, no need to wait for the HC to do it, he has other stuff to worry about.
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Post by Coach Huey on Aug 20, 2014 4:07:31 GMT -6
Perfect example was players walking on the field. Instead of making it crystal clear that there is no walking, whether by yelling it or calling them in, he says "Boy, I'm seeing a lot of walking" without any real threat. Well the kids kept on walking from drill to drill for the rest of the day. Maybe he was talking to his "soft" assistant coaches.... I mean, they aren't upholding his policy either and, since he's "soft", he didn't want to call them out in front of the kids. * sent from my mobile phone
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Post by IronmanFootball on Aug 20, 2014 8:35:00 GMT -6
Interesting - last year when kids walked on the field our HC would put everyone in the corners and we would run and do burpees. This year, early on I saw the kids walking on the field, HC didn't say anything. I walked by him and said "sure are a lot of kids walking on the field this year" and he immediately put them in to corners. Yesterday, they were walking on the field and I hear the HC yell out "TO THE CORNERS, WALKING ON THE FIELD" I think sometimes HC's get overwhelmed by other parts of their job that they get caught not paying attention to smaller details, for lack of a better term. But it seems to me that's why they have assistant coaches - to remind them or to help enforce/remember them. I know when I was "wearing the pants" I leaned heavily on 2 assistants to be my dudes and keep the program structure and pace intact when I was dealing with parents, ADs, and whatever else that school could think of to talk to me about during practice. Exactly. The head coach has to set an expectation with his assistants of what he wants the program to look like. The assistants should enforce the rules, and the HC can remind the assistants about slacking. It can't always be the head coach on everyone. I was the "bad guy" year 1, neutral year 2, and I'm back to leaning towards being the bad guy again BUT it's my fault! I stepped up my game about reminding my assistants what my vision is and they're back at it making sure everyone runs to drills, off the field for water. Also helps if players can step up and communicate this. Our kids work our routine with the new guys and make sure they fall in line. Had an 8th grader tell a junior "I know you can jog up faster than that" It wasn't an NFL brawl at practice, it wasn't cuss words, it was cold hard truth with some positive kick to it.
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Post by joker31 on Aug 20, 2014 9:16:34 GMT -6
A perfect example was today. We've always had the rule where kids are not allowed to walk on the field, pretty standard for most programs. He's reiterated to the coaching staff how important this is. Many of the coaches here are teachers so I'll equate this to a classroom. When you get a new class in the school year, you always want to be stern with your class expectations. Kids will see if they can cross that line within the first two weeks, and if a kid finds he can get away with certain things, you're screwed as a teacher for the rest of the year. You learn to be extremely strict to start, then ease up a the school year goes. Perfect example was players walking on the field. Instead of making it crystal clear that there is no walking, whether by yelling it or calling them in, he says "Boy, I'm seeing a lot of walking" without any real threat. Well the kids kept on walking from drill to drill for the rest of the day. Your staff knows the HC hates walking on the field yet YOU or another staff member didn't say anything to the players that were walking? If I knew our HC hated something, then I would say something, no need to wait for the HC to do it, he has other stuff to worry about. Believe me, I'm yelling to the players to start running from drill to drill and upholding my part of it as well. While I'm being aggressive with it, the HC is being passive about it. If it was me, I'd blow a whistle and call them all back in and give them a final warning that they are not to walk on the field again.
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Post by joker31 on Aug 20, 2014 9:20:40 GMT -6
I guess I didn't make it clear, it's not like we weren't enforcing that rule. We all were, but it's just we had an aggressive approach vs. the HC having a passive one.
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Post by joker31 on Aug 20, 2014 9:21:51 GMT -6
Interesting - last year when kids walked on the field our HC would put everyone in the corners and we would run and do burpees. This year, early on I saw the kids walking on the field, HC didn't say anything. I walked by him and said "sure are a lot of kids walking on the field this year" and he immediately put them in to corners. Yesterday, they were walking on the field and I hear the HC yell out "TO THE CORNERS, WALKING ON THE FIELD" I think sometimes HC's get overwhelmed by other parts of their job that they get caught not paying attention to smaller details, for lack of a better term. But it seems to me that's why they have assistant coaches - to remind them or to help enforce/remember them. I know when I was "wearing the pants" I leaned heavily on 2 assistants to be my dudes and keep the program structure and pace intact when I was dealing with parents, ADs, and whatever else that school could think of to talk to me about during practice. This could be it. I will talk to him about it before practice and suggest he take an aggressive approach if he sees walking on the field.
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Post by fantom on Aug 20, 2014 9:35:57 GMT -6
I guess I didn't make it clear, it's not like we weren't enforcing that rule. We all were, but it's just we had an aggressive approach vs. the HC having a passive one. That's how it works. The boss makes the rules, we enforce the rules.
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jelotts
Sophomore Member
Posts: 120
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Post by jelotts on Aug 20, 2014 15:03:39 GMT -6
Kids today have more choices. Gone are the days of the abuse and insults. You can work them hard, you had better win though, or they will say its not worth it. You hit the nail on the head here Coach!
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Post by joker31 on Aug 20, 2014 15:25:08 GMT -6
This could be it. I will talk to him about it before practice and suggest he take an aggressive approach if he sees walking on the field. He may very well tell you "why don't you take care of that?" Which solves the problem too. That's certainly happened before, and I have no problems doing it. But there are times where certain messages need to be said from the HC (not saying this instance in particular). There are times he'll want me to do/say something and I've told him that "I think that message needs to come from you" The players know who the big boss is, and as you know, those messages stick a little longer when it's the HC.
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Post by blb on Aug 20, 2014 17:40:33 GMT -6
He may very well tell you "why don't you take care of that?" Which solves the problem too. That's certainly happened before, and I have no problems doing it. But there are times where certain messages need to be said from the HC (not saying this instance in particular). There are times he'll want me to do/say something and I've told him that "I think that message needs to come from you" The players know who the big boss is, and as you know, those messages stick a little longer when it's the HC.
The "big boss" tells kids what expectations are at initial team meeting.
They should have been practiced before kids get to Varsity.
Assistants need to enforce them without having to be told, then.
Especially if as you say you played for him and are not a "rookie" coach.
He told you "I see a lot of walking..."
That was your delegation to do something about it.
Head coaches get tired of being the "Bad Cop" all the time, and they shouldn't have to be.
You have kids walking to your drills? That's your fault.
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Post by joker31 on Aug 21, 2014 1:29:48 GMT -6
That's certainly happened before, and I have no problems doing it. But there are times where certain messages need to be said from the HC (not saying this instance in particular). There are times he'll want me to do/say something and I've told him that "I think that message needs to come from you" The players know who the big boss is, and as you know, those messages stick a little longer when it's the HC.
The "big boss" tells kids what expectations are at initial team meeting.
They should have been practiced before kids get to Varsity.
Assistants need to enforce them without having to be told, then.
Especially if as you say you played for him and are not a "rookie" coach.
He told you "I see a lot of walking..."
That was your delegation to do something about it.
Head coaches get tired of being the "Bad Cop" all the time, and they shouldn't have to be.
You have kids walking to your drills? That's your fault.
Incorrect, I'll rephrase it. The "big boss" tells kids what expectations are at initial team meeting. They should have been practiced before kids get to Varsity. Assistants need to enforce them without having to be told, then. Especially if as you say you played for him and are not a "rookie" coach. Correction 1 - THE HEAD COACH told PLAYERS "I see a lot of walking..." Correction 2 - I do the best i can to make sure no one in my position group walks Head coaches get tired of being the "Bad Cop" all the time, and they shouldn't have to be. Correction 3 - Hardly anyone walks in my drills, if they do, there's consequences... Overall, lots of players walking outside of my position group. If it was me, there would be lots of running for the entire team.
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Post by joker31 on Aug 21, 2014 1:38:12 GMT -6
Another example today, not upset with the HC but just stating the events.
2 players showed up late to the start of practice (1 player was a repeat offender from the day before), 2 players showed up without practice pants and had just shorts... Simply because they forgot them at home.
Myself and the DC (not Head Coach) had a conversation. The DC says "I'd love to discipline these guys, but I hate to do it because it must be done outside of practice time... I want to go home and be with my wife and kid"
Myself and an assistant OL coach said essentially, "Let's do it in practice". There's a special teams period to start every practice, lets discipline them then. We have a prowler with weights down by the field, we decide we'll use that as the "discipline sled". The DC agreed.
We went to the HC and said we need to be more strict on these things. I used my analogy of how teachers have extremely strict class rules/expectations at the start of the year so it doesn't become a zoo later on. He agreed.
I brought the prowler out and said all 4 would be pushing the sled during specials period. He said "no because he gave the two players with shorts a final warning, and you want to go and run them?". I said "Okay, but Player A has been late two days in a row, he's running the sled". He agreed.
I ran player A on the prowler sled for 200 yards. He won't be late again I'm assuming.
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Post by coachwilcox on Aug 21, 2014 2:22:39 GMT -6
Don't be so infatuated with "discipline" that you lose sight of your attention to detail with your position players and your role as an assistant coach.
When you become the HC you can run the militaristic program that you think works best. Until then, fake it til you make it!
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Post by jlenwood on Aug 21, 2014 6:10:22 GMT -6
He may very well tell you "why don't you take care of that?" Which solves the problem too. That's certainly happened before, and I have no problems doing it. But there are times where certain messages need to be said from the HC (not saying this instance in particular). There are times he'll want me to do/say something and I've told him that "I think that message needs to come from you" The players know who the big boss is, and as you know, those messages stick a little longer when it's the HC. "I think that message needs to come from you"...... If I were the HC and my assistant was so presumptuous to think he knows what messages need to come from me, and I don't, we have a bigger problem than kids walking on the field. Seriously, all I have heard from you is how you would run the show. I get that, every assistant coach has differing views on some things than the HC, but it is not your program.
I don't know how long you have coached, what your age is or any other particulars, but coming from a long time assistant coach let me give you my thoughts on your situation.
Make your position players know day one what to expect from you, such as they are to sprint to your position group every day. If not, they will go back to do it again until they know that walking on the field isn't ok with you. During team periods, your position players are to always be hustling or ready to come in instantly, if not you don't play and so on and so on. A rising tide lifts all boats. If other coaches see you holding your players accountable, maybe they step it up. If the HC sees you doing this maybe he steps up his game.
I have a rule with my players, during team if I call in a new group and one of them doesn't get on the field, all the players in my group will have a discipline and the offender will have to watch his team mates be punished. After about one time, the players sweating there a$$ off will not tolerate that from the loafer ever again. And I have also noticed I never get any repeat offenders with this type of position group punishment. My players will not walk on the field, they will treat other players with respect, they will know what to do, they will be the first in any drill line (especially my senior position players) and so on. You make it start in your groups and it will spread to the others, I guarantee that.
You also never said if the HC has a position group or a coordinator position with the team. If he does maybe he is consumed with that when you see kids loafing. If not, maybe he is waiting for some of his "new" coaches to step up and start being coaches, not discipline nazis.
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Post by silkyice on Aug 21, 2014 7:36:48 GMT -6
I think one of the biggest mistakes of any HC or school or society for that matter is having rules that cannot be enforced consistently. If the HC has so many rules that even he can't keep track of infractions then perhaps he should re-evaluate his philosophy on the rule structure. I know in my experience, when I first started teaching I had a list of like 14 rules. 4-5 of which I could/would enforce consistently. The kids found the ones that were not enforced consistently and when I tried to enforce them on one they were quick to point out how I didn't enforce it on Jimmy yesterday and how that wasn't fair. You know what - they were right. So now my rules...I don't even have rules actually for my classroom. My rules are "Act like you're in High School", "be on time" and "be respectful of me and others (don't talk when we are talking), and act like you have some common sense". That's my whole rule policy right there. Last year I wrote the same kid up twice in the same day and those were the first 2 referrals I've written in probably 5 years. (and he was just being an idiot during an exam and when I told him to chill out he cussed me out (referral #1 for using the F word) and then threatened to have his dad come up here and kick my MF'in @$$ (referral #2 for MF'in). I will also say football wise - it's pretty tough to enforce rules on the kids that the coaches don't follow. IE language and being on time. Agreed. How did it turn out for the dad? My money is on you.
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