Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2014 4:43:32 GMT -6
Been having an ongoing debate w/some other coaches on this topic. I've always been one that has liked a lot of numbers in the program. I think it's a good indicator of program health. Anyhow, I've got some coaching colleagues that see it differently and like low numbers. They claim, that when you get the numbers down, you've got the kids that really want to be there. You have the kids that want to work hard and win. In the past 2 seasons I've worked w/some of the lowest varsity numbers I've ever worked with and we are going into the season with our program (after adding incoming freshmen) will have less than 50 participants. Just a few years ago, this same program was boasting over 80 total between varsity and JV. Not much has changed in these years, the records have been pretty much the same, as has the expectations, yet the numbers have dropped rapidly. Do you think it's good to have good numbers, and that it is an indicator of overall program health, or are you on the other side, and think get rid of the riff-raff and have the ones there that want to be there?
Duece
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Post by rystaylo on Jun 3, 2014 5:22:47 GMT -6
We started the spring with 60. After two weeks of hitting we were down to 42.
The key is to make sure and do your fundraising before they quit.
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Post by Chris Clement on Jun 3, 2014 5:23:36 GMT -6
All things being equal, more numbers are better, but if you have to compromise certain things to keep numbers up then that can be a bad thing.
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creid
Sophomore Member
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Post by creid on Jun 3, 2014 5:56:14 GMT -6
Strong numbers are an indicator that kids want to be a part of the program. Nobody comes out for football with the intent to quit and most understand the commitment. We've took over a program that had numbers in the 40s and had won 3 games in the 5 years prior to the change. We are now between 70 and 75 year to year. It is rare that a kid quits once preseason starts…maybe 4 or 5 in the past 5 years. We have about 350 boys in the school and we have high expectations of our athletes.
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Post by coach2013 on Jun 3, 2014 6:07:29 GMT -6
Numbers really don't mean much - you only play with 11. IF you have 22 studs that's better than 80 duds.
If you have a quality program you most likely have the studs and a number of duds to studs stories. It takes time for that to happen.
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Post by coachwoodall on Jun 3, 2014 6:26:20 GMT -6
I think how the numbers are distributed makes the biggest difference of all. When you have that team 70-100+ it is still the top 20-25. Very seldom do you even get to that many.
I worked with a guy many years ago and his thought process was to have 45 kids grades 10-12, 15ish in each grade. With 45 everyone was at least a 'back up' no matter what grade or position. Also, with roughly 15 in each grade, you always had some depth, some returning starters/contributors. So the Freshman team had to develop 15 kids a year.
When we have had those big numbers (100+), you always have those hot dog eaters. I really depends on how you want to handle the hot dog eaters. The biggest problems/headaches we encountered was when the hot dog eaters out numbered the scout teamers that were willing to contribute.
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Post by coachphillip on Jun 3, 2014 8:39:18 GMT -6
I think any time you have numbers it is a good indicator of program health. Obviously the numbers will differ in relation to school size, football culture, socioeconomic factors, etc. But, when you win games and change the culture, numbers will typically grow. That being said, the number I care about most is retention, especially among freshmen/sophomores. It's my job to keep young guys around and help foster a love for the game. It's the varsity HC's job to exercise "addition by subtraction".
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Post by blb on Jun 3, 2014 8:56:08 GMT -6
Duece, I have always felt like you do. If you have a good program that is enjoyable and successful, kids will want to be a part of it, and if coaches have good relationships with them, they'll stay out.
On the other hand, I have a friend who's been successful as a head coach who believes numbers are overrated.
Guess that doesn't help much.
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creid
Sophomore Member
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Post by creid on Jun 3, 2014 9:18:13 GMT -6
Keeping young kids out and developing them is key. We feel as though you need 30-35 guys who can practice at the varsity level to have a successful program. Only had one kid start both ways last year….certainly gives hope to kids that they have a chance to play as seniors and they are more willing to work to get better.
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 3, 2014 9:20:46 GMT -6
I don't think numbers mean crap. I certainly don't think you need them to be successful. 70 bodies with only 30 players is no different than 45 bodies with 30 players.
Also don't think that success necessarily will lead to higher numbers. We've been very successful lately, but our numbers haven't increased very much at all. Why? I don't know. But, we don't lose kids once they're out and the kids we do get out show up to everything. I'd rather go to war with 37 kids (which is what we'll have this year) that show up to 85% of our stuff than 70 where you only have 35 around consistently.
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Post by georgefred86 on Jun 3, 2014 9:31:12 GMT -6
When we first arrived the programs numbers were at 82 (9-12) ... our projected numbers 7 years later is 140+. We are a school of 830 students. With the increased numbers our success continues to increase ... have to go with the more young men out for football the healthier the program.
In reading When the Game Stands Tall ... Coach Ladouceur might disagree, the Spartans traditionally only had 43-45 players on varsity. Having said that, his 43 are very different than the 43 a public school produces ... so in order to get the Spartan 43 we need at least 70 out for varsity football.
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biggus3
Sophomore Member
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Post by biggus3 on Jun 3, 2014 10:13:34 GMT -6
I like to have big numbers. As a strength coach, I like to think that I can make a hot dog eater into a serviceable kid over 4 years if he commits to the program. If we can get a couple good players out of those rum dumbs it is worth the headache. Plus it is nice to have a few extra fundraisers around.
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 3, 2014 10:20:43 GMT -6
so in order to get the Spartan 43 we need at least 70 out for varsity football. Why? Can't you tell whether a kid is going to be able to play in your program before they put pads on? |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 3, 2014 10:42:28 GMT -6
Anytime we talk numbers I think it is of the utmost importance to clarify our terms, be very specific as to what we are counting/describing, and recognize that places do things differently all across the country.
When we are talking numbers, are we talking total program (every single kid who plays football in your school) are we talking just "Varsity"? And if we say "Varsity", then it is important to realize that schools do things many different ways.
-- Some have a "Varsity" comprised of Soph, Jr, and Seniors, and then a separate Freshmen team.
-- Some Have a Varsity and a JV who is just the kids who don't play on Fridays.
-- Some have a Varsity, a JV (kids who don't play on Fridays) AND a separate Freshmen team.
-- Some schools have a Varsity, a JV team, a SOPHmore team, and a Freshmen team.
When someone says "We have 35 kids"...understanding that it can mean very different things because of these different models is very important.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2014 10:56:37 GMT -6
This is true, coachd, I didn't clarify. We have a varsity and a JV. Varsity is compromised of "the best" players in the entire program from freshmen to senior. JV is the freshmen, sophomores, and juniors that either a)aren't good enough, or b)are being developed to be a future member of the varsity. Not, how I do it, that's just how things are here. This upcoming season our varsity will consist of sophomores, juniors and seniors while the JV will have about 90% freshmen and a few sophomores that need a little more time to develop sprinkled in.
I've never been at a place that freshman ball, just varsity and JV. When I was HC, we tried not to have juniors on JV if we could help it. I just don't think there's a place for them at that level. Even if they are first year kids, I put them w/the varsity. If you weren't smart enough to come out as a freshmen, then it's "sink or swim" time IMO. Most sink, but I've had a few that swam and were pretty dam good. Anyhow, the JV was all developmental kids, sophomores and freshmen. The way I look at 9th and 10th graders is this, if he can come in and play consistently, I'll put him on varsity. I WILL NOT move a kid up just to sit the bench. I don't think it's fair to them, and I don't think they get much out of that. Now, at the end of our JV season we'd move the guys we felt were ready to make the leap up to varsity to let them get a few more weeks of practice and get better. Anyhow, that's how I've done it. Last place I was HC, we had 63, 66, 74, 83, 78 were the total program numbers in a HS that contained roughly 1,000 kids.
Anyhow, I'm still torn, and I actually think numbers may not be a great indicator at all of program health due to the varying of opinion on here (hence why I asked the question to you fine gentlemen!).
Duece
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Post by georgefred86 on Jun 3, 2014 11:10:22 GMT -6
so in order to get the Spartan 43 we need at least 70 out for varsity football. Why? Can't you tell whether a kid is going to be able to play in your program before they put pads on? Nope ... because we have had plenty of juniors who do not play a snap on varsity and by the time they are seniors they become major contributors. In our league, junior varsity includes sophomores and juniors ... so many times they are just not ready for varsity football, but one more of development and game experience gets them ready for their senior year. That's like hearing a youth football coach telling us who is gonna be a player and who is not ... really?  Our role as coaches is to develop our athletes and sometimes the process takes longer for those than others. Also, they are still growing! We had a sophomore who was 5'6 and 135 pounds ... by the time he was a senior (this last fall) he was 6'2, 185 pounds and played on both sides of the ball for us last year. Now that isn't always the norm, but my point is ... you just never know. |
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 3, 2014 11:23:03 GMT -6
Why? Can't you tell whether a kid is going to be able to play in your program before they put pads on? Nope ... because we have had plenty of juniors who do not play a snap on varsity and by the time they are seniors they become major contributors. In our league, junior varsity includes sophomores and juniors ... so many times they are just not ready for varsity football, but one more of development and game experience gets them ready for their senior year. That's like hearing a youth football coach telling us who is gonna be a player and who is not ... really? Our role as coaches is to develop our athletes and sometimes the process takes longer for those than others. Also, they are still growing! We had a sophomore who was 5'6 and 135 pounds ... by the time he was a senior (this last fall) he was 6'2, 185 pounds and played on both sides of the ball for us last year. Now that isn't always the norm, but my point is ... you just never know. I think you can tell whether a kid will be a player before they even put pads on. Size, speed, skill, etc mean very little to me. Will a kid work? If the answer is yes, they can become a player. If not, have a nice day and enjoy basketball. It's probably different for me though in that in a school of 185 kids I see the kids in class and in other areas and can see them not just as a football player, but as a person. I don't know, but I try to get the right kids out, not the right athletes. |
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Post by coachbdud on Jun 3, 2014 11:27:39 GMT -6
Numbers with kids who do what they are supposed to and want to be there is the best - good programs have this
low numbers isn't great but at least you've got the dedicated few
having numbers just for the sake of numbers sucks... I've coached teams who kept kids on just for numbers, they are useless, just want to wear a jersey on friday nights or to get girls
our JV coach thinks numbers are great, wants to let every kid in the world come play JV football, any time... too loose and we butt heads on the issue at times because now we have kids coming up in a year who think they can show up whenever they want
I feel you need to start off as strict as possible, trim the numbers down and build from there
id rather have 25 quality kids
then 25 quality kids +15 losers
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 3, 2014 11:55:49 GMT -6
When we first arrived the programs numbers were at 82 (9-12) ... our projected numbers 7 years later is 140+. We are a school of 830 students. With the increased numbers our success continues to increase ... have to go with the more young men out for football the healthier the program. In reading When the Game Stands Tall ... Coach Ladouceur might disagree, the Spartans traditionally only had 43-45 players on varsity. Having said that, his 43 are very different than the 43 a public school produces ... so in order to get the Spartan 43 we need at least 70 out for varsity football. Again, how does Coach Ladouceur's 43 fall into the categories I listed below? |
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Post by fantom on Jun 3, 2014 11:57:32 GMT -6
Nope ... because we have had plenty of juniors who do not play a snap on varsity and by the time they are seniors they become major contributors. In our league, junior varsity includes sophomores and juniors ... so many times they are just not ready for varsity football, but one more of development and game experience gets them ready for their senior year. That's like hearing a youth football coach telling us who is gonna be a player and who is not ... really? Our role as coaches is to develop our athletes and sometimes the process takes longer for those than others. Also, they are still growing! We had a sophomore who was 5'6 and 135 pounds ... by the time he was a senior (this last fall) he was 6'2, 185 pounds and played on both sides of the ball for us last year. Now that isn't always the norm, but my point is ... you just never know. I think you can tell whether a kid will be a player before they even put pads on. Size, speed, skill, etc mean very little to me. Will a kid work? If the answer is yes, they can become a player. If not, have a nice day and enjoy basketball. It's probably different for me though in that in a school of 185 kids I see the kids in class and in other areas and can see them not just as a football player, but as a person. I don't know, but I try to get the right kids out, not the right athletes. No, you can't. |
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 3, 2014 12:00:17 GMT -6
Anytime we talk numbers I think it is of the utmost importance to clarify our terms, be very specific as to what we are counting/describing, and recognize that places do things differently all across the country. When we are talking numbers, are we talking total program (every single kid who plays football in your school) are we talking just "Varsity"? And if we say "Varsity", then it is important to realize that schools do things many different ways. -- Some have a "Varsity" comprised of Soph, Jr, and Seniors, and then a separate Freshmen team. -- Some Have a Varsity and a JV who is just the kids who don't play on Fridays. -- Some have a Varsity, a JV (kids who don't play on Fridays) AND a separate Freshmen team. -- Some schools have a Varsity, a JV team, a SOPHmore team, and a Freshmen team. When someone says "We have 35 kids"...understanding that it can mean very different things because of these different models is very important. "We" consists of kids 9-12. We play a varsity and JV schedule. Last year we were able to schedule a couple freshmen games too. This year we won't be able to. Had 45 kids 9-12 last year of a coop of 325 total enrollment. This year we'll have around 37 with a similar enrollment. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2014 12:00:53 GMT -6
There's a certain threshold you need to break--I'd say around 30 who are ready to play at any time. In general, I'd prefer as many as possible for the competition, community involvement, and fundraising/gate.
As lame as it is to have 60 kids with 20 of those doing nothing but taking up space, it sucks far worse when you have 25 in your entire program and the handful of talented kids know that their spots are secure so they don't work at all. The not so talented kids also know they'll start because of necessity so they don't work. Then the kids who are used to that culture drag down the promising young ones as they come in. Pretty soon your program is in a downward spiral of apathy and losing.
So yeah, I feel pretty strongly that overall numbers are a good indicator of overall program health.
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 3, 2014 12:01:23 GMT -6
I guess we'll have to disagree. I definitely think you can tell if a kid will be a player without them ever playing by their work ethic and attitude. |
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Post by fantom on Jun 3, 2014 12:18:42 GMT -6
I guess we'll have to disagree. I definitely think you can tell if a kid will be a player without them ever playing by their work ethic and attitude. You can tell if there's a CHANCE that he'll be a player. Unfortunately, there are kids who may work their a$$ off and do everything that you ask of them but just cannot play football. Sometimes they don't have any talent. Sometimes they just don't like physical contact. Just about every year we'll have at least one kid who comes out for the first time, has good attendance in the weight room and works hard there, looks promising in 7-on-7, but quits after the first day of contact. Just didn't like it (and we do NOT consider that a character flaw). You can't tell who will be a player until he plays. |
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Post by georgefred86 on Jun 3, 2014 12:18:47 GMT -6
I guess we'll have to disagree. I definitely think you can tell if a kid will be a player without them ever playing by their work ethic and attitude. And those players attitudes and their work ethic never changes over time? Players don't mature? So if they don't fit it by the time they are freshmen or sophomores ... then "go play basketball"? |
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Post by blb on Jun 3, 2014 12:31:07 GMT -6
There are some kids whose "work ethic and attitude" are much different on a Football field than in a classroom, too.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 3, 2014 12:40:19 GMT -6
Lets try to steer back to the topic regarding numbers, as opposed to the prognosticative abilities of Larrymoe or others.
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Post by mariner42 on Jun 3, 2014 12:43:10 GMT -6
Nope ... because we have had plenty of juniors who do not play a snap on varsity and by the time they are seniors they become major contributors. In our league, junior varsity includes sophomores and juniors ... so many times they are just not ready for varsity football, but one more of development and game experience gets them ready for their senior year. That's like hearing a youth football coach telling us who is gonna be a player and who is not ... really? Our role as coaches is to develop our athletes and sometimes the process takes longer for those than others. Also, they are still growing! We had a sophomore who was 5'6 and 135 pounds ... by the time he was a senior (this last fall) he was 6'2, 185 pounds and played on both sides of the ball for us last year. Now that isn't always the norm, but my point is ... you just never know. I think you can tell whether a kid will be a player before they even put pads on. Size, speed, skill, etc mean very little to me. Will a kid work? If the answer is yes, they can become a player. If not, have a nice day and enjoy basketball. It's probably different for me though in that in a school of 185 kids I see the kids in class and in other areas and can see them not just as a football player, but as a person. I don't know, but I try to get the right kids out, not the right athletes. One of my best players doesn't hold a candle to the kids he beat out for the CB job if you're going by the eyeball test or weight room numbers. Kid could flat out get it done, however, lead our team in INTs and made some amazing hustle plays that really changed some games for us. Our fault for not recognizing sooner what we had with him, but he really didn't show much until Friday night. As to numbers, our program is a weird case. We had 220-230 kids in the program last year with a varsity, JV, and frosh squad. The varsity had just over 100 at the start of the season. There's absolutely no cuts, but at the same time there's no recruiting the hallways. I'm of the opinion that if the varsity only carried 60 (who here has THAT problem...) they would have a stronger team. They've got their studs, their players, their backups, their bag holders, and then they've got another 40 kids on top of those already mentioned. I think that they suffer from dilution of practice reps in indy time and coaching attention in general. On top of that, I think it's bad form for the HC to have to say "Hey, nice job #89!" during week 8 because he doesn't know the kid's name. I think the magic number for quality and quantity is somewhere between 45-60 for a varsity squad. For your lower levels, take all comers who meet the program rules/standards and get them into what you're doing. |
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Post by fantom on Jun 3, 2014 12:43:54 GMT -6
Been having an ongoing debate w/some other coaches on this topic. I've always been one that has liked a lot of numbers in the program. I think it's a good indicator of program health. Anyhow, I've got some coaching colleagues that see it differently and like low numbers. They claim, that when you get the numbers down, you've got the kids that really want to be there. You have the kids that want to work hard and win. In the past 2 seasons I've worked w/some of the lowest varsity numbers I've ever worked with and we are going into the season with our program (after adding incoming freshmen) will have less than 50 participants. Just a few years ago, this same program was boasting over 80 total between varsity and JV. Not much has changed in these years, the records have been pretty much the same, as has the expectations, yet the numbers have dropped rapidly. Do you think it's good to have good numbers, and that it is an indicator of overall program health, or are you on the other side, and think get rid of the riff-raff and have the ones there that want to be there? Duece I'd love to have great numbers but I've never been a part of a program where we were totally satisfied with the numbers. |
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souza12
Sophomore Member
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Post by souza12 on Jun 3, 2014 13:11:28 GMT -6
Quality over Quantity
However, I like numbers being high in the beginning, may be able to get some of those fence-sitters to buy in and they become quality guys.
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