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Post by fantom on Jun 3, 2014 13:31:53 GMT -6
Anyway, isn't this a moot point for most of us? It's not like we can draft them. We can only take the ones who come out. Assuming that you're not going to compromise your requirements, wouldn't most of us want more players? There have been many, many posts here asking how to build up the numbers but I've only seen a few asking what to do when you have too many kids.
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Post by s73 on Jun 3, 2014 14:26:45 GMT -6
I guess we'll have to disagree. I definitely think you can tell if a kid will be a player without them ever playing by their work ethic and attitude. Had a kid who was 5 '11 and 130 about 10 years ago built like Olive Oil. It was my 1st year as a HFC at a different school. I was already thinking hope this kid can run, maybe he can play corner. First few agility drills were ugly. I'm thinking bench player all the way. First day of contact and this kid EXPLODED into his teammates. Started at INSIDE LB for me and led the team to the best season in 13 years. Kid could not even bench 130. NOBODY SAW that coming. Last season had a kid who was 5'10 185 and squatted almost twice his body weight and was an outstanding kid w/ tremendous work ethic. Also ran track and was in one of our faster relays. First day of contact? PETRIFIED!!! Ended riding the bench on a bad football team. You can guess, but you never really know until the pads are on. JMO.
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Post by coach2013 on Jun 3, 2014 14:40:49 GMT -6
The number that seems to make the most difference most years is NUMBER OF SENIORS....
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Post by coachphillip on Jun 3, 2014 15:01:23 GMT -6
The number that seems to make the most difference most years is NUMBER OF SENIORS.... But, wouldn't a higher number of underclassmen be more likely to retain a higher number of Seniors? That's what I think the main argument of bigger numbers is.
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Post by spartandefense on Jun 3, 2014 15:02:30 GMT -6
One question I have for the teams with 50-100 players is how do you practice? I get it in college you have exclusive Offensive and Denfesive players and need a scout for both simulateously - plus specialists.
I absolutely hate guys just standing around, and it becomes a distraction. If I am 80-100 I probably not even getting scout team reps, so I would be tempted to talk goof off whatever.
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Post by rsmith627 on Jun 3, 2014 16:09:48 GMT -6
One question I have for the teams with 50-100 players is how do you practice? I get it in college you have exclusive Offensive and Denfesive players and need a scout for both simulateously - plus specialists. I absolutely hate guys just standing around, and it becomes a distraction. If I am 80-100 I probably not even getting scout team reps, so I would be tempted to talk goof off whatever. We two platooned when we had around 75 players. 1st team o with scout d on one end, 1st team d with scout o on the other end and the rest of the slappies rotating into the scout teams every 3 plays or so. There was some standing around but not a ton.
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Post by coach2013 on Jun 3, 2014 16:34:13 GMT -6
The number that seems to make the most difference most years is NUMBER OF SENIORS.... But, wouldn't a higher number of underclassmen be more likely to retain a higher number of Seniors? That's what I think the main argument of bigger numbers is.
not always. Schools enrollments can change year to year - small schools, in small school classes, in small school states have a huge advantage in some cases with 10 seniors going against a team that maybe has 2 or 3.
Similarly some places have so many seniors where you cant play varsity until youre a senior unless youre some kind of freak.
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Post by coachwoodall on Jun 3, 2014 20:18:45 GMT -6
I've had too many of the "Looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane" conversations to think I can judge a pup by his spots. Again I think the numbers dilemma is going to be based on how you can handle/care about the hot dog eaters.
I think we all agree that the number/amount of the best players make a difference in the wins and losses. Be can YOU make the hot dog eaters be part of the team and contribute or are they something you have to deal with. If you don't want to deal with them, then have cuts. If you want to try and include them and give the extrinsic benefits of being part of your team, then find the time to handle them.
The hot dog eaters rarely make a difference in the wins/losses of your team outside of the overall chemistry/fellowship of XXXXXXX High School football team. Some of the greatest hot dog eaters that I have coached are some of my favorite kids that I have been around in my 20+ years. I still text them/call them/email them, but they never did anything more positive on the football field than simply being a team mate.
When the team wins, yes kids want to be around a winner. That is why you see the sales of the NFL/NBA/MLB/NHL Team X jerseys go up after the championship game. Heck I remember a kid named Hank in my grade that had a different NFL letter man's jacket every February after the Super Bowl. If you judge the state of your program on the numbers of kids that want to be around the cool kids who win football games, then you are still missing the boat.
What are you doing with the kids in your program regardless of whether or not they can run an acceptable 40 time? If you fall on either of the fence, I have not problem with your professionalism. Just go set your program to be successful either way.
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Post by tango on Jun 3, 2014 21:11:04 GMT -6
The number of coaches on staff would help answer the question IMO. If you have 100 kids and 5 coaches that's not good.
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Post by utchuckd on Jun 4, 2014 6:06:26 GMT -6
Hot Dog Eaters?
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Post by coach2013 on Jun 4, 2014 6:11:19 GMT -6
Hot dogs, pop corn, chips. I seriously had two kids walk off from the team one year, got themselves some snacks, hung out on the track with their girlfriends, all the while in complete uniform/padded up - not one coach noticed until finally the guy in the booth says "do you think they should be on the sidelines with the team?"
Too funny and what a great turnaround story we had given the culture.
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Post by mariner42 on Jun 4, 2014 9:12:20 GMT -6
The number of coaches on staff would help answer the question IMO. If you have 100 kids and 5 coaches that's not good. In all honesty, there isn't really any number of coaches that works at that point. Even if you have a DE coach and a DT coach to split up your 17 DL, you're still suffering from wasted resources, as I see it anyway.
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Post by mattharris75 on Jun 4, 2014 10:19:46 GMT -6
but they never did anything more positive on the football field than simply being a team mate. Underrated contribution, and great life lesson, IMO.
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Post by fantom on Jun 4, 2014 10:36:23 GMT -6
The number of coaches on staff would help answer the question IMO. If you have 100 kids and 5 coaches that's not good. In all honesty, there isn't really any number of coaches that works at that point. Even if you have a DE coach and a DT coach to split up your 17 DL, you're still suffering from wasted resources, as I see it anyway. It's an unfortunate fact that once the season starts not everybody can get coached equally. You identify the immediate contributors, throw in young guys with potential, and they get the work. The other guys service them on the scout team.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2014 10:40:27 GMT -6
I have never cared about numbers, big or small, or judged another program on their numbers. To me the percentage of kids on your team that are committed to the team is a lot more important number.
By committed I mean doing the summer stuff, getting to every practice on time, and trying to do your best, etc. Once you get even one player that does not meet the basic requirements you start to have problems.
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Post by blb on Jun 4, 2014 11:10:42 GMT -6
Numbers are a concern from standpoints of being able to have effective practices and quality depth (at least "A Pair and a Spare").
At my current duty station (Enrollment: 423) I would be happy if we could get 2 RBs, 2 OTs, 2 Guards, 2 WRs, a TE, a C, a QB, and 2 DEs, 2 DTs, 2 OLBers, a MLBer, 2 CBs, 2 Safetys (same kids) in each class.
Unfortunately we're not even getting that right now.
The more four-year players you have on the Varsity any given year, the more competitive-tougher out you will be.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2014 13:23:05 GMT -6
One question I have for the teams with 50-100 players is how do you practice? I get it in college you have exclusive Offensive and Denfesive players and need a scout for both simulateously - plus specialists. I absolutely hate guys just standing around, and it becomes a distraction. If I am 80-100 I probably not even getting scout team reps, so I would be tempted to talk goof off whatever. If you have those kinds of numbers, I'm assuming you probably have a lot of coaches and a decent-sized practice area. If that's the case, besides 2 platooning, you can do all kinds of things with that: have multiple groups go simultaneously during group and indy drills to maximize reps, keep 2-3 huddles going simultaneously in team, rotate entire scout teams every other play so you can explain assignments in more depth while the other team's lining up and running, etc. It's not that big of a stretch to get reps for the 2nd and 3rd teamers and their backups if you have the coaches and space. Now if you have 4-5 coaches for a roster that size, as was mentioned earlier in this thread, that's where things get tricky.
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Post by freezeoption on Jun 4, 2014 15:42:43 GMT -6
Having to compete is the key. If kids have to compete for a position then they work harder.
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Post by CS on Jun 4, 2014 17:11:46 GMT -6
Probably one of the most celebrated coaches in my state won a state championship with 14 players. I would bet he didn't care about numbers
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Post by coach2013 on Jun 4, 2014 17:41:42 GMT -6
every liberal AD and Principal cares about numbers. "inclusion- be welcoming" regardless of team, unselfishness, work ethic, commitment, sacrifice for the good of the team, and other real values that you promote.
Have heard it myself " Ill evaluate based on participation"
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Post by coachwoodall on Jun 4, 2014 20:06:03 GMT -6
every liberal AD and Principal cares about numbers. "inclusion- be welcoming" regardless of team, unselfishness, work ethic, commitment, sacrifice for the good of the team, and other real values that you promote. Have heard it myself " Ill evaluate based on participation" I''m not going to argue the merits of that statement. I do agree that I have an intense desire to coach kids who want to truly invest in what we're doing. Those kids are fun because they feed my ego/core/passion. Those kids are the ones that can basically coach themselves, we just take them to a higher plane. The hot dog eaters can be just as fun to coach, but they're different. AND they can add value to the team in small increments. The hot dog eaters aren't a part of the team to make us better, they're part of the team so we can make them better. We all have turds that we have to flush. But from what I gather from the OP and from my experience is that when start to get 'numbers' we are starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel. How can we keep those kids engages and benefit from those kids around them that really invest in the team. When Marcus Lattimore came through the program, I did very little to make him a great player, I made contact and stayed the hades out of the way. I've had several kids like him. I have grown as a coach by those kids that wanted to be part of the 'Marcus Lattimore experience' simply because they showed up and wanted to put on some pads. Those kids can feed off of the Marcus Lattimores and grow as a man.
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jmg999
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Post by jmg999 on Jun 6, 2014 2:24:31 GMT -6
I think that the overall question is highly dependent upon what level we're talking about. My first two years, I was at a JC, and it was important for us to have high numbers in spring, b/c, by the time mid-summer rolled around, a significant portion of these guys had just disappeared. This happened w/ some of the same players both years that I was there.
The coaches I coached w/ were also of the mind that once the pads were put on, it was a whole new ballgame. My first spring, I saw kids that I thought would excel come the fall, but once they put on pads, it really inhibited some of their innate, athletic ability to the point that they were reduced to the same level as the rest of the guys vying for their position.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2014 10:34:34 GMT -6
I was thinking more along the lines of high school ball.
Duece
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Post by unc31 on Jun 8, 2014 12:51:44 GMT -6
In my experience high numbers are great if they can all contribute in some way. Whether it is special teams, giving us a great look on scout team or being a back up who can give us a few quality reps on game night, then they are worth keeping and we want them out there.
On the other hand if a kid is incapable or unwilling to be a good scout team player at the very least, then there is no reason to keep him and let him either stand around all day or take indy and group reps from someone who may actually play some day. We don't need those kids. We carried over 65 on the JV this past season and there were about 10 who were always "injured" and could not participate even in practice. But come Thursday they were the first ones in line for pre-game meal. We talked to the trainer about it but as he said, if they come to him with physical complaints he has to act accordingly or put us all in a liability compromise.
The exception would be the kid who is totally gung ho and hustling every single day despite a lack of ability. If a kid can bring something positive to the team we will keep him.
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coachgeorge51
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Cliches and mottos is mindless verbal nonsense.
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Post by coachgeorge51 on Jun 10, 2014 17:13:15 GMT -6
I took over the losingest program in our state 2 years ago and has 65 kids on varsity in a school of 2,200 and have gone 1-17. Drugs, Alcohol, losers in school, quitters on the field, and lack of commitment. I cut and drove out the losers (coaches included) and now left with 40 in my 3rd year.
I like these kids and they represent my program well. Win or lose, we can now be proud of our time together. I would rather lose with winners, then win with losers any day.
I have been beat up brutally for my stance but willing to take the hits if we can turn this around. You only live once so why waste your time with kids and coaches that don't care.
If they fire me, at least I know I tried to do it the right way. You can't win with losers, period.
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Post by coachcb on Aug 6, 2014 13:26:39 GMT -6
In a perfect world, I'd like about 25-30 kids that can get the job done on Friday night.After that, the more the merrier: it's easier to find and mold the next round of varsity players if your numbers are higher.
That's not to say we're not looking to weed kids out over the years. Lazy kids don't see the field at any level. Regardless of talent, you'd better work or plan on playing waterboy. Not only will you not play, but I, personally will not beg you to come back when you quit. I won't even mention it; turn in your gear, have fun.
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Post by joelee on Aug 7, 2014 13:23:16 GMT -6
Nowdays I am at a loss as to why kids play or don't play. Last year on picture day we had 106 kids. We won 14 games and the state title. This year on picture day we had 86 kids?
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Post by blb on Aug 7, 2014 15:37:30 GMT -6
Nowdays I am at a loss as to why kids play or don't play. Last year on picture day we had 106 kids. We won 14 games and the state title. This year on picture day we had 86 kids?
As has been posted-discussed, there are a myriad of reasons why kids don't choose to participate.
When I was younger I used to take it personally, and think there must be something wrong with kids that didn't.
Fact is, Football's not for everybody. Doesn't make them "bad kids."
If it was easy, everybody would be playing.
Heck, I don't like Opera - doesn't mean it doesn't have value for some
Now I look at it like when I was recruiting in college - you present your program, what it has to offer them, what they have to do to be a part of it.
If they choose not to, you just move on to those who DO want to be there and will do what is required-necessary.
Don't spend time worrying about who's not playing any more than you will about who your opponents have.
Can't do anything about either.
Coach the ones who ARE there and want to be part of your program.
"Want to" can make up for a lot of deficiencies.
And if you lose with the kids who are there doing what you ask, doing best they can - you can live with it.
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Post by CoachCP on Aug 8, 2014 5:02:27 GMT -6
When I played high school ball, our program always had 100 or so kids out at the Freshmen level. We had an A, B and C team. The Sophomores had an A and a B team. Then the varsity/JV was the same kids. Whoever didn't play Friday played Saturday.
That same program is down about half the numbers at the Freshmen level b/c the city's become older. Since those numbers dropped (I believe the Sophomores dipped slightly and the Varsity is about the same), the program has won more games, been to two state titles and 4 semi-state games, compared to being a .500 level varsity program when I was there.
I will say a lot of that success though is due to other variables though, outside of those numbers at the freshmen level. That being said, I'll take bigger numbers most of the time, especially if you have a quality staff that can coach them up. If you don't, I might want the smaller group, but not quite sure. The hard part is preventing them from falling through the gaps if you have huge numbers - especially at a lower level - (which is what often happened with the Freshmen C team so to speak, so then they didn't want to play Sophomore year instead of being developed).
And before you say you can tell those kids by "just looking at them", 1 kid that played a Freshmen C team game (me) became 1st team all conference and started their junior year (and I did not look like an athlete at all my freshmen or sophomore year), another was a starter their junior year/senior year, and another became a starter their senior year, just on the offensive line alone. Note that none of us grew more than an inch taller or so, so while we got stronger, we didn't necessarily get "bigger". Two starting Freshmen "A" linemen, the A team QB, and one of the A team receivers all didn't make it 4 years through the program. That's anecdotal evidence, but I've never been able to say with 100% accuracy in my years of coaching that a kid will be great just by looking at them or seeing their effort and such w/out pads on. Same is true with my playing days.
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