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Post by sweep26 on Mar 1, 2014 14:31:11 GMT -6
When you look around the country, it seems like high school football is dominated by the Private/Church/Non-Public High Schools in nearly every State...why is this?
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Post by fantom on Mar 1, 2014 14:33:54 GMT -6
When you look around the country, it seems like high school football is dominated by the Private/Church/Non-Public High Schools in nearly every State...why is this? Not Virginia. |
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Post by spos21ram on Mar 1, 2014 15:01:43 GMT -6
Becsuse they can get players from the whole state and even out of state compared to a single district.
Some state's have their private schools totally seperate from public.
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Post by spartan on Mar 1, 2014 15:14:02 GMT -6
Recruiting!
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Post by blb on Mar 1, 2014 15:21:05 GMT -6
When you look around the country, it seems like high school football is dominated by the Private/Church/Non-Public High Schools in nearly every State...why is this?
How do you define "dominated"?
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Post by realdawg on Mar 1, 2014 15:23:47 GMT -6
Not really in NC. Charlotte Catholic is a power but I wouldnt say they dominate. They did just lose their coach of 40 years to retirement. Several other good private programs around Charlotte. Why? They dont have attendance boundaries, and their parents are shelling out big time bucks so they are gonna do what they are suppossed to do, and finally, they are well coached and disciplined.
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Post by coach2013 on Mar 1, 2014 15:26:25 GMT -6
Not every private school is attractive to the best athletes. That said, there is usually one private school powerhouse that will be attractive to the best athletes. There is little doubt that private schools are attractive to parents for a variety of reasons (aside from the tuition) The best athletes can get assistance and get a great private school education and also play for a power house program with other great players. Its not so much "recruiting" as it is players that have the choice, playing for a proven winner. The rich get richer. Bad private school teams may have attractive academics while struggling to get better athletes that the "can do" and "has done" private school continues to get. Essentially, they get the leftovers.
A list, state by state of the most dominant private school would be a nice list to see.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2014 15:36:12 GMT -6
When you look around the country, it seems like high school football is dominated by the Private/Church/Non-Public High Schools in nearly every State...why is this? They recruit. The elite programs recruit nationwide. They also tend to benefit from wealthy alums who donate large sums of money to their program, so they have nice facilities and training programs, which also help with recruiting. Tennessee sort of separates the privates out after some of them were dominating in the 90s. We now have a handful of them that make up Division II, which has its own playoffs and champions. Many, if not most, still get to play in Division I in districts and playoffs alongside public schools and they get a multiplier to try to level things out, with a cap on the multiplier that it can't put them more than 2 classes above their actual enrollment figures. Some of them are still very, very successful on an annual basis, though, because they still get to recruit studs from the nearby area and even other states--something many of the elite public school programs also do, albeit illegally. In fairness, there are also a lot of private school teams who are really awful or mediocre because they don't have a lot of money and recruiting behind them--these are schools that put academics or religious education first. Some of those less successful private schools have more obstacles to overcome than most public schools. Year in and year out, two of our state's most dominant programs are Maryville and Alcoa, both of which are public programs (located fairly close to each other) that benefit from "open enrollment" and an embarrassment of riches when it comes to money and academic/athletic resources. It's almost like they get the best of both worlds. |
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Post by coachbdud on Mar 1, 2014 16:15:34 GMT -6
Recruiting
Money
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2014 16:17:12 GMT -6
To be fair, plenty of the successful private schools put education and religion first as well. I have a friend who coaches at a very successful Catholic school in IL and when he interviewed for his teaching position, he was told to not even mention football in the interview process, even when asked about what extra-curriculars he's be interested in.
Recruiting is a word that gets thrown out too much, in my opinion. To quote a former athletic director of mine, "The real advantage they have is not the students they have, it's the students they DON'T have." Private schools don't have to accept that bottom percentage of students that quite frankly don't contribute anything to the school academically or athletically. This is obviously a huge part of school's culture and can breed success in all areas of a school.
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Post by coachcb on Mar 1, 2014 16:24:53 GMT -6
Some recruit.
Some throw around money.
The ties that bind all of them? Higher behavioral and academic standards and the ability to remove kids that are a PITA. Kids don't have "rights" in private schools; they can be kicked out for poor grades or bad behavior. As such, you're left with an environment that's more conducive to discipline and work ethic.
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Post by olinecoach61 on Mar 1, 2014 17:15:57 GMT -6
Call it recruiting, call it player choice but we are losing one of the best prospects we've had in a long time. Played some spot duty as a frosh, would def have started next year, was told last week that he is transferring so he can pursue his d 1 aspirations. It's frustrating but what can you do.
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Post by fantom on Mar 1, 2014 17:37:19 GMT -6
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Post by spos21ram on Mar 1, 2014 18:45:37 GMT -6
When you guys say "recruit" do you actually mean someone on staff actually goes out and recruits kids specifically for a sport?
Reason I ask is because I thought private schools could legally recruit, but i found out last year they cannot. Can't here in rhode island anyway. They still break rules and are rarely punished for it, but its illegal. What private schools are required to do here is invite kids to an open house then they can recruit them. But for example going to a peewee field and recruiting is suppose to be against the rules.
You guys should double check your states rules. Our AD filed a couple complaints to the state about baseball recruiting. Our kids were being recruited at batting cages and clinics which is illegal.
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Post by coachbdud on Mar 1, 2014 19:12:10 GMT -6
When you guys say "recruit" do you actually mean someone on staff actually goes out and recruits kids specifically for a sport? Reason I ask is because I thought private schools could legally recruit, but i found out last year they cannot. Can't here in rhode island anyway. They still break rules and are rarely punished for it, but its illegal. What private schools are required to do here is invite kids to an open house then they can recruit them. But for example going to a peewee field and recruiting is suppose to be against the rules. You guys should double check your states rules. Our AD filed a couple complaints to the state about baseball recruiting. Our kids were being recruited at batting cages and clinics which is illegal. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using proboards the ones here actively recruit... not necessarily someone who is an actual coach... but they have so many parents/boosters/fans/allies of the program that they do the recruiting for them I live in the same city as De La Salle... I hate their school and never want to see them win... obviously great coaching and program, but they poach from every city/team within an hour drive of here they have people checking out all the 7/th/8th grade youth games... scouting and trying to talk to kids. They have people visit freshman games and try to pick out the best athletes and talk them in to coming over. At my previous school, they actually had someone ballsy enough to come on to our campus during the day, attempt to get a visitor pass from the office, so he could talk to our two best freshman players about bettering their future by going to DLS... they wont target anyone after 9th grade... they want to bring them in when they begin as freshman, or occasionally after their 9th grade year elsewhere... it is disgusting... our HC at the time was a campus security and he instantly confronted him, and kicked him off of our campus... another shady thing the private schools (especially DLS) do is to hold "youth camps" to help better the young players these camps are essentially a chance for them to bring in a bunch of kids... have them do drills and see which ones complain, then have someone contact those select individuals (the biggest or most athletic kids) and talk them in to going to DLS/offer them financial aid to get in There is a huge correlation if you look at the number of kids who go to this camp they host, and the kids who very quickly decide to apply there right after so shady CA desperately needs to have a separate divisions for public schools and private/charter schools I group charter schools in with the privates because they can bring in kids from outside of their area and operate as their own entity, just like a private school... they are essentially, a free private school |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2014 19:42:51 GMT -6
To be fair, plenty of the successful private schools put education and religion first as well. I have a friend who coaches at a very successful Catholic school in IL and when he interviewed for his teaching position, he was told to not even mention football in the interview process, even when asked about what extra-curriculars he's be interested in. Recruiting is a word that gets thrown out too much, in my opinion. To quote a former athletic director of mine, "The real advantage they have is not the students they have, it's the students they DON'T have." Private schools don't have to accept that bottom percentage of students that quite frankly don't contribute anything to the school academically or athletically. This is obviously a huge part of school's culture and can breed success in all areas of a school. That's true. I phrased it badly when I said that some suck at football because they put education and religion first. I should have said "they don't prioritize football." Also, some of the privates around here don't have tons of money behind them. Some really struggle just to pay their teachers, are set up in crumbling old public schools, play on rented fields, etc. Plenty can't even afford football teams. You are very right about the lack of bottom feeder students not pulling the culture down. Private schools don't need to focus much of their resources on treading water with kids (and parents) who would rather not be there. I do have friends who've coached and worked at private schools who tell me that some of those spoiled rich kids can be real PITA to deal with, though. Our trainer's worked for several and tells stories of doctor parents writing kids prescriptions for painkillers and steroids like it's nothing, of kids getting away with all sorts of things that would get your typical 16 year old arrested and placed in foster care, etc. A friend of mine was HC at one for a couple of years and he says the parents owned him there and got him to compromise a lot of his core values as a coach. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2014 19:52:41 GMT -6
When you guys say "recruit" do you actually mean someone on staff actually goes out and recruits kids specifically for a sport? Reason I ask is because I thought private schools could legally recruit, but i found out last year they cannot. Can't here in rhode island anyway. They still break rules and are rarely punished for it, but its illegal. What private schools are required to do here is invite kids to an open house then they can recruit them. But for example going to a peewee field and recruiting is suppose to be against the rules. You guys should double check your states rules. Our AD filed a couple complaints to the state about baseball recruiting. Our kids were being recruited at batting cages and clinics which is illegal. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using proboards They can do that here, I'm pretty sure. The catch, as I understand it, is that the ones who play in districts alongside public schools can't offer them "financial aid." Regardless of whether it's legal or not, it happens all the time. I know of several public school programs that do this, as well. Showing up on Peewee fields, having "unaffiliated" boosters go to MS games and chatting up parents of talented athletes, giving kids "free" passes to their "camps" (aka "recruiting drives), etc. Then there's the blatant old thing where the HC calls a kid up and says "Hey kid, come play for me at XX school and you'll win championships, get media hype, and get to play in the SEC." In our neck of the woods, it's usually the wealthier suburban public schools with tradition and money that pilfer the top athletes from the more rural county systems that surround them, more than the privates. You wouldn't believe how much the regional powerhouse public programs do this. Private schools do that more in the big cities. It makes me sick. I'm a little ticked about public schools also recruiting after finding out yesterday that a nearby public school's been calling up our more talented freshmen and 8th graders to badmouth our program and talk them into going there. Looks like we've lost our top 8th grade player to it already. One of the schools we played this year went down to Alabama (about 5 hours away) last year and brought back a half dozen very athletic kids to play football and basketball for them. Also, a lot of the top athletes at private schools are kids who've actually been kicked out of public schools for discipline problems. Those schools wouldn't touch a student like that if he wasn't bringing something "special" to the table, and it surely isn't his great test scores. |
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Post by sweep26 on Mar 1, 2014 20:00:14 GMT -6
Regarding the recruiting aspect of this discussion...can private high schools legally send official representatives to Public Middle Schools to recruit students?
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Post by John Knight on Mar 1, 2014 20:07:05 GMT -6
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Post by mholst40 on Mar 1, 2014 21:46:13 GMT -6
I did some research...
In California, 92% of the high schools are public.
Since California started hosting it's State Bowl Games in 2006, private schools, which make up 8% of the schools in the state have won the title 64% of the time. Private schools also tend to dominate the smallest and largest divisions in the state.
The schism is even worse in basketball where a couple of years ago 15-of-the-20 teams at the state championship were private.
Everyone has hit on some great points above as to why private schools dominate. We play in a league with a top-tier private school program which regularly draws some of the best athletes in our attendance areas.
My thought has always been that private schools should play in a private school only league, in private school playoffs and in a private school championship. I think the numbers support that, my bias aside.
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Post by carookie on Mar 1, 2014 23:48:41 GMT -6
I am at a private school in California right now (nowhere near being a dominant program). We play mostly public schools come playoff time- we are about 300 kids they are about 1,000- and end up getting beat. As has already been stated most private schools faith first, academics next, then athletics down the road.
Obviously there are those private schools that dominate; they have money (which means better facilities and more coaches) and then they recruit (which is helped out by the $$). The recruiting aspect is the big thing, and what usually chaps the most hides; but there are plenty of dominant public schools that Ive come across that somehow find a bunch of transfers coming in couch*recruit*cough.
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Post by gators1422 on Mar 2, 2014 6:40:29 GMT -6
Plain and simple is recruiting. Here in Florida it happens all the time. If you wonder how being at a private school vs a public school here in Florida is let's look at the most successful coach in Florida high school history Corky Rodgers. In 13 seasons at a public school in Jacksonville Coach Rodgers won 5 playoff games and made the playoffs 10 times. Only 5 playoff wins!!!! Now he moves to Bolles, private school also in Jacksonville. In 24 years there he has won 10 STATE titles and made the finals 14 times. Now that seems like a drastic difference to me, same coach just different school. I'm in no way knocking Coach Rodgers ability but just showing that even great coaches look so much better with better players.
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Post by John Knight on Mar 2, 2014 7:27:40 GMT -6
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Post by tango on Mar 2, 2014 7:49:32 GMT -6
You must pass the FCAT in a Fl. public school but not in a private school. If a scholarship kid has not passed the FCAT they move to a private school. Exchange students in other sports is just crazy.
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Post by realdawg on Mar 2, 2014 8:08:00 GMT -6
Also here in NC, private schools are allowed to "reclassify" students. Which basically means move them back to a lower grade which gives them a 5th year of playing high school sports. However, if a private competes in the NCHSAA, they must comply with NCHSAA guidelines which do not allow "reclassification"
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 2, 2014 8:26:10 GMT -6
Regarding the recruiting aspect of this discussion...can private high schools legally send official representatives to Public Middle Schools to recruit students? Surely you must realize that there are 50 states that play HS football in the US, and as such, the rules regarding policy and procedures differ from state to state. This is a VERY key element when discussing things on this board here, despite John Knight 's propensity and lightning quick reflexes to post links with a local flavor when nationwide discussion is being had.. |
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Post by coachg13 on Mar 2, 2014 8:32:46 GMT -6
It's not just recruiting the best athletes IMO. Almost as important is most kids at private schools are inherently more coachable than others. Just from the way they were raised, and then environment they've been in at the same school for x number of years.
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Post by coachcb on Mar 2, 2014 8:33:30 GMT -6
There's one private school in this state that is absolutely dominant. When you look at their teams, you don't see a stacked unit full of D1 athletes; quite the opposite. They're Average Joes that play hard, play fast and are well-coached.
I know there are a lot if private schools that recruit and pull shady crap. But, there many that just have the tools to breed the right culture.
I taught at a private school for awhile and I miss the behavioral and academic policies. It's a whole different world when you don't have to go through all of the bullchit bureaucracy to boot a kid who drags everyone around him down.
Here's a tale of two dipchits:
At the private school a kid showed up in my class stinking like pot. I confronted him about it, kicked him out of class and he was packing his stuff within the hour.
Public school; a felon (literally) pops in high every other day. His eyes are bright red, his pupils blown and he spends the day in a stupor. He disrupts class because he's giggling half the time and acting like an idiot but the worst he gets is some ISS for being lippy. The administration has their hands tied because we haven't actually caught him with drugs so we can't boot him.
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 2, 2014 8:57:17 GMT -6
It isn't "recruiting", it isn't "money or facilities" it is CULTURE. It is EASIER to create a championship CULTURE in a private school due to the very nature that it is private. It does not have to service all comers. It does not have to answer to the public whims. Under the proper leadership (coach and admin) it is easier to create this culture so that OTHER aspects of the nature of private schools (no enrollment zones, in general higher educated/motivated parents) can be utilized to create success.
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Post by John Knight on Mar 2, 2014 9:07:38 GMT -6
Regarding the recruiting aspect of this discussion...can private high schools legally send official representatives to Public Middle Schools to recruit students? Surely you must realize that there are 50 states that play HS football in the US, and as such, the rules regarding policy and procedures differ from state to state. This is a VERY key element when discussing things on this board here, despite John Knight 's propensity and lightning quick reflexes to post links with a local flavor when nationwide discussion is being had.. Did you even look at this? www.rrstar.com/x465798996/Public-private-war-in-high-school-sports-is-national-issue |
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