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Post by gators1422 on Mar 2, 2014 9:12:51 GMT -6
I agree 5085, but better athletes sure help a lot too!!!
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 2, 2014 9:17:00 GMT -6
Surely you must realize that there are 50 states that play HS football in the US, and as such, the rules regarding policy and procedures differ from state to state. This is a VERY key element when discussing things on this board here, despite John Knight 's propensity and lightning quick reflexes to post links with a local flavor when nationwide discussion is being had.. Did you even look at this? www.rrstar.com/x465798996/Public-private-war-in-high-school-sports-is-national-issueJohn...relax. I was needling you a bit LOL. You have to admit that most of your links are from either the ohio association information or local papers etc etc. The key point to my reply was that the poster I was addressing didn't seem to realize that things differ across the country.
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 2, 2014 9:23:02 GMT -6
I agree 5085, but better athletes sure help a lot too!!! But private schools don't automatically get better athletes. I believe Louisiana has more private schools (per capita) than any state in the country. One is absolutely a power (John Curtis), one WAS a power before a change in culture and rules ( Evangel Christian). Some are solid teams... and some are perennial doormats. Culture, Culture, Culture. That is the driving force. I guess it is a matter of perspective, but would you say your roof is up because you have rafters, or a foundation?
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Post by gators1422 on Mar 2, 2014 9:33:20 GMT -6
Like I said previously that has a lot to do with it. But like I said in my first post, coach Rodgers from Bolles can only win 5 playoff games in 13 years then go to a private school and win 10 state titles??? Most of those successful private schools do a great job in working, coaching and everything involved. But the problem is that if we are all the same but you some how get better kids you win! Almost always the private schools that want too will have the better kids!
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 2, 2014 9:38:26 GMT -6
Like I said previously that has a lot to do with it. But like I said in my first post, coach Rodgers from Bolles can only win 5 playoff games in 13 years then go to a private school and win 10 state titles??? Most of those successful private schools do a great job in working, coaching and everything involved. But the problem is that if we are all the same but you some how get better kids you win! Almost always the private schools that want too will have the better kids! Why? You get to go to the public schools for free. And don't say "scholarships" because I 99.99% can guarantee that in any association in which public and private schools are competing, the private schools do not dole out financial aid to athletes left and right. Do SOME manage to sneak some money to some... yes. But it is a far cry from what people seem to think. Coach Rodgers is now at a school where he can more easily dominate the CULTURE, and create one that is more conducive to winning. I bet silkyice might have a hard time instituting his schoolwide weightlifting policy at a public school. Look at the results it has yielded his entire sports program (I think it is in the S&C board if not this general board)
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Post by gators1422 on Mar 2, 2014 9:48:44 GMT -6
I can assure you in Florida that the kids they want do not pay a dime down here. I know personally a kids mom who was a D-1 football player at Trinity Christian in Jacksonville. She told me they did not pay a dime. They fixed it so she would "volunteer" for some of the tution costs. She said that was laughable. I'm certainly not saying that all private schools do that but I know for certain that it is done.
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Post by gators1422 on Mar 2, 2014 9:52:14 GMT -6
It is an easy fix in my opinion. If a kid accepts any scholarship money then that school plays in a all private league. If all the kids participating are paying the FULL tuition then they should play in the class they are designated for. I think that would change things a lot.
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Post by fantom on Mar 2, 2014 10:23:37 GMT -6
As coachd said, it's hard to make universal rules because the clout that private schools have varies from state to state.
Here in Virginia publics and privates compete in completely separate associations. Recruiting in football isn't much of an issue and I think that a loot of that is because most private schools here aren't particularly interested in trying to become athletic powers. It's not their mission so they aren't giving scholarships or recruiting sub-par students. Private schools are not seen as a ticket to football scholarships. There have been great players from private schools- Russell Wilson and the Long brothers, for example- but the vast majority of recruits from VA come from public schools.
Cross the Potomac into Maryland and it's a completely different world. One of our coaches attended a youth all-star game and he said that when it ended the private school recruiters hit the field like the Oklahoma Land Rush. The coach of a prominent private school gave us a tour of their new field house and complained that they spent so much money on it that they lost scholarship money.
So, a lot of it depends on where you are.
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 2, 2014 11:30:34 GMT -6
I can assure you in Florida that the kids they want do not pay a dime down here. I know personally a kids mom who was a D-1 football player at Trinity Christian in Jacksonville. She told me they did not pay a dime. They fixed it so she would "volunteer" for some of the tution costs. She said that was laughable. I'm certainly not saying that all private schools do that but I know for certain that it is done. So, because you personally know a kids mom who said she didn't pay tuition to attend Trinity Christian, then all the football players that attend Florida private schools go to school tuition free? Regarding "she told me" I have had over 20 people tell me their kids were on "full ride baseball scholarships to _______ university" which we know as football coaches don't exist. People like to brag about what they are given. Just keep that in mind during this thread as well.
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Post by carookie on Mar 2, 2014 13:19:31 GMT -6
I would be interested to see what pct. of private schools dominate (say are in the top 1% in their state) as opposed to those that are below avg.
From what I've seen the majority of private schools are small, and focused more on academics and faith.
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Post by mholst40 on Mar 2, 2014 13:44:13 GMT -6
I would be interested to see what pct. of private schools dominate (say are in the top 1% in their state) as opposed to those that are below avg. From what I've seen the majority of private schools are small, and focused more on academics and faith. Yes, but at least in CA, the numbers I provided before show that 8% of private schools in the state win 64% of the time. Those that do take football seriously, can do well for various reasons. Most of these schools who have a very solid football history don't have to recruit. Kids want to go there. I have no issues with kids choosing where to go or those coaches recruiting, but I think they should play in seperate leagues because they get to play by different rules.
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Post by wingtol on Mar 2, 2014 15:19:22 GMT -6
In states that have separate private/pubic divisions do the same public schools seem to dominate every year or is it more diverse without private schools?
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Post by sweep26 on Mar 2, 2014 15:21:52 GMT -6
It isn't "recruiting", it isn't "money or facilities" it is CULTURE. It is EASIER to create a championship CULTURE in a private school due to the very nature that it is private. It does not have to service all comers. It does not have to answer to the public whims. Under the proper leadership (coach and admin) it is easier to create this culture so that OTHER aspects of the nature of private schools (no enrollment zones, in general higher educated/motivated parents) can be utilized to create success. This rationale really makes sense. Thanks Coach!!
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Post by gators1422 on Mar 2, 2014 15:31:44 GMT -6
I can assure you in Florida that the kids they want do not pay a dime down here. I know personally a kids mom who was a D-1 football player at Trinity Christian in Jacksonville. She told me they did not pay a dime. They fixed it so she would "volunteer" for some of the tution costs. She said that was laughable. I'm certainly not saying that all private schools do that but I know for certain that it is done. I'm certainly not saying that all private schools do that but I know for certain that it is done. I'm pretty sure I answered your question as to whether or not all private schools do it.
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Post by gators1422 on Mar 2, 2014 15:44:47 GMT -6
You are exactly right wingtol, good programs are that way whether they are public or private. I think the problem arises when the smaller public school teams who feel like they are working with what they got and having a banner year and what awaits them in the semi-finals, a private school team with 5 D-1 players. Something just doesn't seem right for a school with 3-500 kids to have 2-8 D1 kids all the time. We lost in the playoffs to a school many years ago, a school of 300 kids. They had 7 D1 kids on that team, 3 of the secondary went to the SEC, 5 of the 7 were major D1 kids. Now you put a great program and coaching with that talent and you have a recipe for success. I am not saying that the private schools don't work hard or aren't well coached but they definitely have an advantage.
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Post by fballcoachg on Mar 2, 2014 15:47:13 GMT -6
In states that have separate private/pubic divisions do the same public schools seem to dominate every year or is it more diverse without private schools? I would say they same teams tend to "dominate" period, regardless of public/private. You will obviously get a team that fields an amazing year or two but at the end of the season you usually see a lot of the same teams playing deep. I believe it goes back to what coachd5085 said about culture...and tradition. When you have a culture that values hard work and realizes the benefit of athletics you are going to consistently be better. Those are the situations where the average kids really flourish and develop in to above average players by the end of their careers through hard work.
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Post by tango on Mar 2, 2014 15:51:09 GMT -6
Most are small schools in our area. If you can get 3 new kids a year it makes a huge impact at a small school. It also allows you to win consistently and get extra weeks of practice for the next year. It builds the culture that has been talked about above. We have local school that seems to get a D1 kid every year. Enrollment is around 200 and they get a 1st round draft pick in MLB and he signs a D1 football scholarship. He was also the best track athlete and played basketball. They become good in a hurry.
If a true D1 kid and the private school is K-12, he or she can play varsity early.
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 2, 2014 16:00:46 GMT -6
In states that have separate private/pubic divisions do the same public schools seem to dominate every year or is it more diverse without private schools? Ding Ding Ding--- we have a winner. This is what you see when you have a public/private divisions put in place. It is the same public names--perhaps advancing a bit further now that there are more spots. But after a few years, in Louisiana, I predict you will probably see the same 8 teams battling it out each year in most classes.
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Post by fantom on Mar 2, 2014 16:18:11 GMT -6
Most are small schools in our area. If you can get 3 new kids a year it makes a huge impact at a small school. It also allows you to win consistently and get extra weeks of practice for the next year. It builds the culture that has been talked about above. We have local school that seems to get a D1 kid every year. Enrollment is around 200 and they get a 1st round draft pick in MLB and he signs a D1 football scholarship. He was also the best track athlete and played basketball. They become good in a hurry. If a true D1 kid and the private school is K-12, he or she can play varsity early. Nobody is disputing that recruiting is good for private schools. The question is, how is it fair to public schools? We can't ecruit that future D.1 kid. We have to hope he lives here or moves here.
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 2, 2014 16:49:41 GMT -6
Most are small schools in our area. If you can get 3 new kids a year it makes a huge impact at a small school. It also allows you to win consistently and get extra weeks of practice for the next year. It builds the culture that has been talked about above. We have local school that seems to get a D1 kid every year. Enrollment is around 200 and they get a 1st round draft pick in MLB and he signs a D1 football scholarship. He was also the best track athlete and played basketball. They become good in a hurry. If a true D1 kid and the private school is K-12, he or she can play varsity early. Nobody is disputing that recruiting is good for private schools. The question is, how is it fair to public schools? We can't ecruit that future D.1 kid. We have to hope he lives here or moves here. Keep in mind that public schools recruit as well-- In an ironic twist, one of the few public schools with a winning tradition AGAINST John Curtis has never beaten them without players who started their HS careers at a different public school in the same city.
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Post by blb on Mar 2, 2014 17:04:39 GMT -6
In our state we have "Schools of Choice" (although it's not mandatory, and not all districts do it at all grade levels).
So public schools almost HAVE to recruit, even our own, or lose the $7000 per student grant that pays the bills, especially since population and thus school enrollments have dropped like a Kardashian's knickers last decade.
It led to some shady transfers and so our state association has enacted some new rules-regs to try and ameliorate the situation.
But it's not limited to athletes.
One district I worked at took every kid that had been expelled, suspended, or dropped out from every surrounding community that would come.
Imagine what THAT did for school climate-learning environment.
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Post by John Knight on Mar 2, 2014 17:05:28 GMT -6
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Post by hback41 on Mar 2, 2014 17:13:23 GMT -6
A friend of mine coaches for a powerhouse private school in our state. When I asked him about the recruiting, he first said that the scholarships are part of the school's charter. The school would be going after kids if they didn't have sports. He added that they have few discipline problems because kids want to be there and know they could be removed from the team and potentially the school. Plus the academic support is excellent. Thus, they are able to get quality athletes who have great attitudes. The kids get a great education and go to the semis or finals each year.
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Post by fantom on Mar 2, 2014 17:24:24 GMT -6
Nobody is disputing that recruiting is good for private schools. The question is, how is it fair to public schools? We can't ecruit that future D.1 kid. We have to hope he lives here or moves here. Keep in mind that public schools recruit as well-- In an ironic twist, one of the few public schools with a winning tradition AGAINST John Curtis has never beaten them without players who started their HS careers at a different public school in the same city. That's true but it's illegal and there can be sanctions if you're caught. I'm also aware that there's a difference between choosing on their own to attend a school and being recruited.
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 2, 2014 18:07:12 GMT -6
Keep in mind that public schools recruit as well-- In an ironic twist, one of the few public schools with a winning tradition AGAINST John Curtis has never beaten them without players who started their HS careers at a different public school in the same city. That's true but it's illegal and there can be sanctions if you're caught. I'm also aware that there's a difference between choosing on their own to attend a school and being recruited. In Louisiana (I can't speak for other areas) both public and private schools are under the same rules regarding "recruiting" . It is illegal for any school to athletically recruit. Athletic recruiting is defined as the use of undue influence and/or special inducement by anyone connected directly or indirectly with an LHSAA school in an attempt to encourage, induce, pressure, urge or entice a prospective student of any age to transfer to or retain a student at a school for the purpose of participating in interscholastic athletics. Now, is that lacking real teeth? Sure. Can schools sidestep that ---yeah, pretty easily. But again, both public and private do it. Bradie James (10 year NFL career with Dallas and Houston/ LSU All American) is a proud graduate of power house public school West Monroe High School . His HS senior year bio in the LSU media guide reads : Class 5A All-State selection ... Class 5A Defensive MVP ... District 2-5A defensive MVP ... Parade Magazine All-American ... Member of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution's Super Southern 100, The Advocate's Super Dozen, the Times Picayune's Top 20 Blue Chip List, Tiger Rag's Dirty Dozen, Louisiana Football Magazine's All-Louisiana Team. However, there is NO mention of his Frosh, Soph, and Jr. seasons...all of which he played at Wossman High School in another parish (county)..
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Post by fantom on Mar 2, 2014 18:22:11 GMT -6
That's true but it's illegal and there can be sanctions if you're caught. I'm also aware that there's a difference between choosing on their own to attend a school and being recruited. In Louisiana (I can't speak for other areas) both public and private schools are under the same rules regarding "recruiting" . It is illegal for any school to athletically recruit. Athletic recruiting is defined as the use of undue influence and/or special inducement by anyone connected directly or indirectly with an LHSAA school in an attempt to encourage, induce, pressure, urge or entice a prospective student of any age to transfer to or retain a student at a school for the purpose of participating in interscholastic athletics. Now, is that lacking real teeth? Sure. Can schools sidestep that ---yeah, pretty easily. But again, both public and private do it. Bradie James (10 year NFL career with Dallas and Houston/ LSU All American) is a proud graduate of power house public school West Monroe High School . His HS senior year bio in the LSU media guide reads : Class 5A All-State selection ... Class 5A Defensive MVP ... District 2-5A defensive MVP ... Parade Magazine All-American ... Member of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution's Super Southern 100, The Advocate's Super Dozen, the Times Picayune's Top 20 Blue Chip List, Tiger Rag's Dirty Dozen, Louisiana Football Magazine's All-Louisiana Team. However, there is NO mention of his Frosh, Soph, and Jr. seasons...all of which he played at Wossman High School in another parish (county).. There was a high-profile kid in Virginia a few years ago who attended three schools in his four years: 9th and 10th grade at a small school, 11th at a nearby big school, 12th at a different big school. The funny thing was that the coach at School #2 screamed bloody murder that School #3 had recruited him.
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Post by coachcb on Mar 3, 2014 8:04:52 GMT -6
Essentially, you can't even prove a private school is recruiting because its legal for the players to transfer there.
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 3, 2014 8:55:44 GMT -6
Essentially, you can't even prove a private school is recruiting because its legal for the players to transfer there. Again guys--- remember things are different in different places. In Louisiana, by the LHSAA (sports governing body) rules, it is illegal for ANY player to transfer "for athletic purposes", and conversely, the LHSAA rules could care less if a student goes to school 500 miles away--as long as it is not for ATHLETIC purposes. Private schools don't have a monopoly on having players who happen to be excellent athletes transfer to their schools, as shown in the Bradie James example.
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Post by John Knight on Mar 3, 2014 9:52:48 GMT -6
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Post by Coach Huey on Mar 3, 2014 11:30:15 GMT -6
stuff like this bothers me. seems like the majority of your posts are just links to external articles - relevant or otherwise. in all honesty, that doesn't add to the conversation because people probably aren't going to click the link to read the article - especially if they are viewing on a mobile device. now, if you posted a summary or the key points THEN added the link for further reading, that might be something worth having. thread now locked.
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