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Post by geislerb on Jan 16, 2007 12:57:45 GMT -6
I am the HC at a public school that (unfortunately) sits right next to a private school that is very successful...state champs 3 out of the last 4 yrs. I don't know if I can watch another state title game with them having 6 (the best 6) of my kids. They are in our conference, and beat us every year, which does not help us retain kids.
The problem comes in that our youth program has become the private schools recruiting playground. Many of our youth coaches send their kids to the private school. I want to seperate our youth program as much as possible with the private school. How??
Can I tell kids who are planning to go to the private school to join another youth league?
Can I fire the youth coaches that plan to send their kids to the private school?
If I do either of the previous do I destroy my rapport with the community?
Am I alone with this problem?
Oh by the way the HC of the private school was my coach in high school (No it was a different PUBLIC school)
Please help
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Post by knighter on Jan 16, 2007 13:02:37 GMT -6
OUCH. I have no answers for you on this one.
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Post by superpower on Jan 16, 2007 13:07:34 GMT -6
Until state associations decide to deal with this issue, I can't see how to combat it. In Texas the private schools have their own leagues and play for their own title, if I am not mistaken. I also believe that some states make private schools play at the next higher enrollment level in an attempt to level the playing field.
I am in a small Kansas town with a public high school of about 270 students, but we also have a private school in town that has about 60 students in grades 9-12. They have some very good athletes who would really help us, but the community still supports both schools.
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Post by tog on Jan 16, 2007 13:17:03 GMT -6
texas has gone and screwed this up by letting some private schools in
it used to be done totally right
public vs public
privates play with themselves
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Post by tog on Jan 16, 2007 13:18:35 GMT -6
what to do about it?
i guess
beat them
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Post by superpower on Jan 16, 2007 13:23:00 GMT -6
Tog, when and why did Texas allow some private schools in?
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Post by geislerb on Jan 16, 2007 13:34:55 GMT -6
TOG you're right. You have to beat them in order to get your kids back. The catch is how do you beat them with out your best 6 kids. It's like losing 2 kids. 1. You lose them 2. You have to play against them
I'm not trying to complain, I just was wondering if there is a way to nipp it in the bud at the youth level.
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Post by pegleg on Jan 16, 2007 13:42:21 GMT -6
not to answer for tog, but lobbying by the 2 largest privates in tx. they spent some big money with the state legislature and got into the mix. there are only 2, 1 in dallas and one in houston, and they haven't made any noise yet. we will see, but there hasn't been a ton of problems with it in my experience. like tog said, if you have to play 'em, beat 'em - that will solve a lot of problems.
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Post by coachcalande on Jan 16, 2007 13:42:56 GMT -6
Beat them. that is the best answer. You might even look into starting a separate youth team too. I know there was a small town near us that decided it had to have its own youth program because it was sharing athletes with a rival school. it can be done.
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Post by coachbw on Jan 16, 2007 13:44:59 GMT -6
I was in your conference last year, and I know the school you are talking about. The really frusterating thing with them is that they didn't just steal from you guys, they steal from 4 or 5 schools in the conference. Last year their starting QB and FS (I think both were all state) would have been playing for the school I was at if they didn't go there.
I think maybe one of the things that I would try would be to get my hands on the youth program and to get your varsity kids involved with the youth program. Then, maybe the kids will grow up saying "I want to be a Knight when I am older!" Not sure if that is possible with the way that the district is set up. Otherwise, i don't know how you really compete against it (and no one really has in the past 10 years).
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Post by tog on Jan 16, 2007 13:45:07 GMT -6
there are some small ones being let in too i think peg
for basketball
the slippery slope is there, the door has been kicked in
i don't like it one bit
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Post by spartancoach on Jan 16, 2007 14:00:05 GMT -6
To follow up on what bw said, we face that issue to a smaller degree. We lose a few good players from the youth league to a private school in our conference because they traditionally beat us and most of the other teams in the conference. Playoff time, they play other privates, but during the regular season play all of the local publics. The only answer is "beat them." However, that does not just mean on game day. Is there something you have to offer that the private does not, such as better opportunity for more or earlier playing time. Can you become more active with the youth team to have the players and parents wanting to play for YOU over Coach X, rather than one school over the other? How about youth clinics in the summer at your school with your players assisting, and youth coaching clinics whereby you assist the youth coaches and at the same time let them know that you know your stuff. Just some random ideas.
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Post by coachsky on Jan 16, 2007 15:40:10 GMT -6
Coach,
I would check the bylaws of your youth league and consider adjusting them if needed. You can change the by-laws to say that the purpose of the team is to create a developmental league for the high school, then you can control admission.
The best youth FB league in the Seattle area is built around high school districts. The league does not allow private schools to field a team because their recruiting boundaries are not restricted.
Our select basketball team requires kids to declare allegiance to a high school by grade 6. If you don't sign a document declaring your intention to attend the high school, your kid can't even tryout.
There is precedence to do what you want to do. Conversely you and your assistant coaches should be providing a hell of a lot of support for this youth league. You should run a summer camp (at a profit), offer training classes for the youth coaches, provide a condensed playbook, a dictionary of terms, passing tree, etc. If you are going to demand allegiance you should demonstrate the same.
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Post by coachmacplains on Jan 16, 2007 16:40:32 GMT -6
Not intending to stir a hornet's nest, but I think another perspective is proper here. I coach at a private school - there was a post on this some months past. Our school is not in the same time zone as what is being referred to here. A typical kid in our school comes off the ranch having had no, or very little, previous background in organized sports, especially football. So, they come in here as 9th graders and we are starting at or near ground zero. Having said that, I have a problem with any school referring to a set of kids that happen to live in a geographical area as "our kids". It seems to me one of the great things in this country is choice, including the way we educate our kids. Now, I don't have a problem with dividing up competitive divisions, if that is how the system is set up. For example, when the super prep school in Virginia, with 100+ kids, takes in future D1 players from around the country, then everyone knows that it's not fair to compare them to the competition normal local competition, especially in light of recruiting, financing, etc., and the teams they compete against should reflect that. I know there are great regional and state differences here, but in SD, we don't have those schools. So, we compete right along with everyone else, and in our specific case, we face many uphill issues relative to our competition. So, while I think I have a guess what type of situation you are referring to, maybe not to the extreme of an Oak Hill Academy, it's not that way everywhere. In our entire state there are, to my knowledge, only six private schools that have football programs - three 11-man and three 9-man Would make for some interesting scheduling if we didn't compete with the publics.
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wccoach
Sophomore Member
Posts: 159
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Post by wccoach on Jan 16, 2007 16:54:57 GMT -6
Do you have any control of what the youth program is using as far as offensive and defensive schemes? If your offense and defense scheme is different than the private school then you can force the youth program to run your schemes and make the private school have to implement thier schemes from scratch with these kids. The private school may take players that are available to you in the public school system, but I would be dipped if I was going to train them with my youth program. I don't know if this is applicable, but maybe a way to start fighting back.
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Post by jraybern on Jan 16, 2007 18:30:59 GMT -6
While I do sympathize with coach macplains, I live in a state where there have been private schools in the very recent past who have dominated the entire competition. I played against a private school in the state tournament in basketball. This team won state in both BB and FB. While that may not be uncommon at smaller schools, they had obvious advantages. What is unfair about these situations is that these schools can control enrollment (the school I am referring to is in an area of larger population yet competed at the second smallest class size). They can bring in whatever kids they want by recruiting. Although, this does happen in some smaller schools near larger cities, whether anyone wants to fess up or not. Their budgets can be vastly different than everyone else's. Again, that is not uncommon, but at smaller schools can be a HUGE advantage. I hate to be one who gripes about a situation yet offers no solution, but I can't come up with a fair and EQUITABLE solution. Every case is different. I see private schools here win state championships and others get blown away in every game they play. I do hope a good solution is found and I hope that it continues (in most cases) to remain a pretty level playing field and every team does have a chance to at least compete.
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Post by airman on Jan 16, 2007 19:06:06 GMT -6
I love you public school coaches. you think every kid is your kid and you should have a monopoly on every kid.
fact is most private school kids have when to private school from kindergarden on up throught the 12ths grade.
THEY WERE NEVER YOURS TO START WITH. the private school I taught at 100% were lutheran, 95.6% were from the lutheran elementary and middle school system. you could transfer in unless you had went to private school and oh yes, you needed a 3.0 to compete in sports.
now we all know by watching college football the most successful teams year in and you have the lowest graduation rates and teams like northwestern in evanstan il barely can compete but they graduate 88% of there players. this holds true in all levels. the dumber the jock, the better the athlete.
if you would spend a day with a private school coach you would imediately run back to your public school. are there wealthy private schools, yes. the majority however are privates who struggle financially just like publics do.
the main difference between privates and publics is this, the money is spent on the students for education purposes first.
that is not the case at the public schools were the large portion of the money is spent on paying the large number of administrators first, then teacher pay second and then finally it makes its way ot the class room.
I will tell you how private schools win. It is called numbers. the privates I have been at are smaller but they have limited sports so more boys go out. I was at a priavte of 280 students, (183by the way were girls) want we had 73 boys out for football 9-12 and the rest were in cross country, less then 10 did nothing.
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Post by SAcoach on Jan 16, 2007 19:13:57 GMT -6
Don't worry TOG ....we are trying are best to make these schools experience a negative one ...and then they decide to go back to just being private... Houston private school let in our district this year went 3-4 in district and 4-6 overall... I would add that they are an excellent team and have an outstanding defense
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Post by coachjaz on Jan 16, 2007 22:34:31 GMT -6
The school I attended was a Catholic school of around 320. So you can assume there were around 160 boys in the school. My senior year we had 75 players in the program.
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Post by wildcat on Jan 16, 2007 22:46:35 GMT -6
Almost ALL the kids I know of who attended a Catholic high school also attended Catholic grade school and Catholic grammar school.
Of those six kids, how many attended public schools until 8th grade?
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Post by coachpoe on Jan 17, 2007 1:05:26 GMT -6
coach at and attended all boys catholic school, 270 boys
85% are catholic 90% went to private middle schools
We don't recruit, and I think it is shameful for any private or public school to do, but just because a kid lives in your district, it doesn't make him your kid. He can go to a private school and you don't have to feel like someone stole from you. Also let the private and public schools compete together (unless it is obvious recruit schools like an Oak Hill) and see who the true champions are.
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Post by carson101 on Jan 17, 2007 1:26:28 GMT -6
Separating your youth program from the same one the Private youth program is in could help if there is a different league to get into.
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Post by knighter on Jan 17, 2007 9:53:54 GMT -6
Give me a break. You can't tell me private schools (most of them) do not recruit. They HAVE to to keep the doors open. That I understand. But if it is okay for them to recruit, let the publics do it also, after all with declining enrollment in the smaller schools it may the only way we can keep our doors open as well. I know many private school coaches, and not one of them does not recruit somewhat. Now a kid who has been in private schools since elementary are fine, but do not steal kids from high schools that are fed by the public middle school/junior highs they attended before. And say all you want how most of the money in the private school is spent on education, but allow those boosters to supplement your salary. How else would a private school land a quality coach who could work for much mor emoney in a public district? Nice try fellas. I was born at night, but not last night.
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Post by geislerb on Jan 17, 2007 10:10:44 GMT -6
Let me clarify who I called "My kids". You are right that some kids are enrolled in private schools all the way up. If this is the case, I do not consider them "my kid". However we have parents that send their daughters to my school, and their son(s) to the private school. They don't even try to pretend that it's for academics. Many of you are right we are a huge school and should compete, however we only have a 20% participation rate in athletics. We have 38% of our kids on free and reduced lunch. We have over 100 kids that are in special ed. The private school has 2. Yep 2.
I love my school. I don't want to be anywhere else. I'm NOT trying to complain. I actually want suggestions. Here's what we do now... - youth camp grades 3-9 - provide youth coaches with playbooks - provide youth coaches with clinics on teaching techniques & scheme - seperated the "youth league" into the High school Youth Association
Here is my main concern. If I ask kids to leave our youth teams, or ask coaches to not coach because their other sons attend the private schools, is that going to come back to haunt me?
Doe anyone else do this, or am I just asking for trouble.
CoachBW had a good idea of working the varsity kids with the youth kids. Do any of you do this? How do you work it in? Where do you find time? By the way BW where are you at?
As I tell my coaches "Voice solutions(please), not complaints."
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Post by newballcoach on Jan 17, 2007 10:17:20 GMT -6
There's a school in the Toronto, Ontario called Upper Canada College. Private school through and through, they are not allowed to compete in public school leagues. They can play in weekend tournaments (and routinely crush the opposition) but they don't play against us normal folk. Thank god for that.
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Post by bulldogoption on Jan 17, 2007 10:36:32 GMT -6
I will tell you how private schools win. It is called numbers. the privates I have been at are smaller but they have limited sports so more boys go out. I was at a priavte of 280 students, (183by the way were girls) want we had 73 boys out for football 9-12 and the rest were in cross country, less then 10 did nothing. IMO, that is exactly the secret to private schools and what frustrates public schools. A 300 enrollment private school and 300 kid public school are NOT the same, IMO. A public school of 300 kids may have good participation from 50% of their kids. Public schools have a wider range of attitudes/abilities/backgrounds/parents than privates, again, IMO. My perception of private schools is that the majority of the students in private school are similar to the upper half of public school kids who participate in many activites. This is why many people want to use a multiplier when considering the enrollment of private schools. If a 300 enrollment public could lose the bottom dwellers that don't participate and get dropped in enrollment to compete against smaller schools they would likely have success. As for the original question by coach geislerb, I empathize with you. YOu are stuck in a catch 22. How to beat them without your best kids so the best kids will want to go public. Maybe you want to consider moving.......If you want to manipulate the youth program I am sure you realize it is a long road ahead.......
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Post by airman on Jan 17, 2007 15:51:02 GMT -6
Give me a break. You can't tell me private schools (most of them) do not recruit. They HAVE to to keep the doors open. That I understand. But if it is okay for them to recruit, let the publics do it also, after all with declining enrollment in the smaller schools it may the only way we can keep our doors open as well. I know many private school coaches, and not one of them does not recruit somewhat. Now a kid who has been in private schools since elementary are fine, but do not steal kids from high schools that are fed by the public middle school/junior highs they attended before. And say all you want how most of the money in the private school is spent on education, but allow those boosters to supplement your salary. How else would a private school land a quality coach who could work for much mor emoney in a public district? Nice try fellas. I was born at night, but not last night. fine then exempt me from paying property taxes adn sales taxes which go to fund public schools. I fund public schools just as much as any one else does. I pay my property taxes which in wisconsin his how we fund our public schools. it is my fault the public schools need $8,500 per student and we can get it done for $6000. as for boosters adding to my pay nice one. first off it is illegal, secondly, the majority of private school teachers are second income earners. most are woman who have husbands who have good jobs. if you are a male private school teacher you usually are a administrator or your wife has a good job or in my case my family has money and I really do not have to worry about things. you do not go to the private school I worked at unless you went to elementary and middle school. if you call open houses recruiting then i guess that is the case.
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Post by knighter on Jan 17, 2007 16:15:10 GMT -6
Yep, hold an open house. Deny admission to the average student, but the average student who CAN play a sport (and play it well) we part the gates and welcome him or her with open arms. Seen it happen, and seen it happen a ton. (now airman I speak only of what i know in Iowa, can't speak on behalf of the Wisconsin private/public battle). I know for a fact of a private school in Iowa (which will remain nameless) where the booster supplement to the salary makes what the former coach made very comparable to what I make. No he was not an administrator, and no his wife was not wealthy either.
I am not personally battling with you, but private schools have to recruit. I understand that to keep the doors open it must be done. BUT seems to me most private school coaches won't "admit" what the rest of us already know. Hell I was recruited to a Catholic HS in Iowa for 3 sports. And I am not Catholic. That did not seem to bother this Catholic HS even a little.
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locharion
Sophomore Member
Trips Right Ace Right 999 H Balloon
Posts: 203
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Post by locharion on Jan 17, 2007 16:59:11 GMT -6
I am the HC at a public school that (unfortunately) sits right next to a private school that is very successful...state champs 3 out of the last 4 yrs. I don't know if I can watch another state title game with them having 6 (the best 6) of my kids. They are in our conference, and beat us every year, which does not help us retain kids. The problem comes in that our youth program has become the private schools recruiting playground. Many of our youth coaches send their kids to the private school. I want to seperate our youth program as much as possible with the private school. How?? Can I tell kids who are planning to go to the private school to join another youth league? Can I fire the youth coaches that plan to send their kids to the private school? If I do either of the previous do I destroy my rapport with the community? Am I alone with this problem? Oh by the way the HC of the private school was my coach in high school (No it was a different PUBLIC school) Please help I am not an expert but here are some words I would offer. 1. It is a parent's right to decide what education their child is to receive. Personally, I think it is wrong to tell someone that they can't be part of your staff if they send their kid to another school. That is mixing up staff loyalty with family loyalty and you know who will win. 2. In most states, it is illegal to recruit. If you feel something is going on, have you tried contacting the AD or principal of the rival building? Most private schools don't want scandals and they will try to work something out. If you feel tampering is going on and you have evidence that your youth coaches are trying to talk other kids into going to the private school, now you have grounds for dismissal and a complaint with your state governing body. 3. Your kids are the ones you coach. If you spend time dwelling on what "could have been" you will drive yourself nuts. For other posters, I think you need a reality check when it comes to recruiting. While I don't deny that there are instances of prep schools recruiting certain star athletes, it is more the exception and not the rule. Private school teachers, for the most part, earn about 70-80% of what public school teachers earn. This concept that these schools have money to throw around for their programs is a myth because they can hardly afford to pay their own staff competitive wages. Most private school teachers have to teach nearly forty years before they can think about retiring because there is no union, 401K, or retirement pension offered to these teachers. That is why many private school teachers either leave because they can't afford to earn that little or they become administrators. The current trend is for retired or near retirement age teachers from public schools coming into private schools because they can fiscally afford to do so. Private schools usually do not have major booster clubs to support their teams but to help keep things running. Many private schools are two bad enrollment years from possibly closing their doors for good. I live in a city that has a large catholic population and the archdiocese is constantly struggling with keeping their grade schools and high schools open due to declining enrollment. I went to a private school and did my student teaching in a private school. I can't think of one instance in my years associated with that school or the other schools in my conference where I heard of a kid being wooed away from a public school for sports. Bottomline, most private schools can't economically afford to offer "scholarships" or "vouchers" to athletes because they would eventually do themselves in. Some select prepschools with very influential alumni might but that is again the exception, not the rule. FYI, I am Protestant and I teach in public schools so I like to think I am objective in this subject. Just my $0.02.
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Post by airman on Jan 17, 2007 17:04:06 GMT -6
and what you are saying happens at publics all the time.
if you know anything about wisconsin football you know there is a very large, suburban(right by lake mich, south of milwuakee a few miles) public school. it seems to get the best football players in the area and the best milwaukee public school kids seem to just decide to transfer there. last year the head coach was relived of his position as it was found out how recruiting was taking place.
now was the coach in contact the players or was it just because they were so good at football(several d 1 players annually) the kids decided to move on over. I personally think it was cause they were so darn good. now if this had been a private school the world would have come to a end.
infact the new transfer rule in wisconsin was done because of public schools not private schools abusing the rule.
In Wi. there used to be two seprate athletic associations wiaa(public) WISAA(private). prior to the merger in 2000, WISAA championships were looked down up as second class by the Public school coaches. Now when some private schools have won a few state titles, the public school coaches are all up in arms. they accuse them of cheating to get the titles.
I just look at it this way, back in the 1940s to the 1950s white public high schools in the south did not want to play the black schools for championships. might give blacks the idea they could be some thing in life if they beat a all white school. same thing here, publics want their own championship and do not want to have to play the best competition to get it. come on , you public guys invented outcome based educations where 2+2 can equal 5 as long as the student feels good about his or her answer.
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