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Post by silkyice on Feb 26, 2008 9:41:04 GMT -6
We usually do plyos, agilities, and sprints on Fridays. We did the plyos and agilities, but since it was raining hard we stayed inside. So we did something a little different. We repped out on bench with 135.
I had a player Friday refuse to do the lift. The player has been a hard worker.
I told him that he had to do what we asked if he wanted to be on the team, and I told him that on Tuesday he would have to make it up and do a 250 yard bear crawl for not doing it when I asked. I then sent him to the office for not doing what he was suppossed to do. He got two days ISS (Friday and Monday).
Today (Tuesday) he came in and made up his workout from Monday, did the 135 rep out, did the bear crawl, and participated in the rest of what we did as a team today (more plyos, agililities, and sprints).
So he is back on the team.
My question is should I have given him this additional opportunity or kicked him off permanantly on Friday? I always feel that I can forgive a kid at least once for being stupid and try and provide them an "out." How would you guys have handled the situation?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2008 9:52:42 GMT -6
We don't want to boot anybody, so we give them opportunity to quit.
If they miss the workout, they have a mile. It doubles for every week they don't make it up. If they don't have it made up by the time we start football, they don't get equipment. Can't play without equipment. Had a kid about 10 years ago work it up to 16 miles. Coach finally told him that 16 miles was the max. The kid ran about 2-3 miles a couple days a week the last few weeks of summer.
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Post by buchananm on Feb 26, 2008 9:59:05 GMT -6
Players are kids and kids, sometimes, will be defile. I think you handled it fine. Forgiveness is a characteristic that needs to be taught to our players. Use it as a teachable moment to the rest. There will be consequences, however, to our poor choices. A key here is "he has been a hard worker"...as long as his defiance is not a repetitive thing.
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Post by ajreaper on Feb 26, 2008 10:09:46 GMT -6
I want to know why he had a problem doing that? Was there something that made his refusal legit in his mind?
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Post by brophy on Feb 26, 2008 10:18:49 GMT -6
weird.
You handled it the way you handled it - but was there really a need to go to DEFCON 3 over this and lay the gauntlet down? I'm not defending the kid, but the minute the kid refuses to do anything, send his sorry-butt home. The message should be that he can't be trusted by his team mates (which is what off-season lifting is really about, yes?). THAT is the the worst punishment the kid could have, because when you boil it all down, that is the real reason the kid is playing football (not to please some adult figure).
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FB4life
Sophomore Member
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Post by FB4life on Feb 26, 2008 10:19:00 GMT -6
Even though I totally agree with your decission. If I did that at my school, my AD would ring my neck.
For us, the off-season is just that--off-season.
We have no PE football, and all our workouts are done after school. If you don't show-up; it's your loss... (I still manage to get 20 plus players in the weight room 4 days a week).
Believe me... I wish I was able to make it mandatory and punish those who don't attend.
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Post by silkyice on Feb 26, 2008 10:47:42 GMT -6
you can send players to the office??? and they can get ISS for not doing something football oriented? or did this happen in gym class? It was during 1st block weight training. |
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Post by silkyice on Feb 26, 2008 10:54:23 GMT -6
I want to know why he had a problem doing that? Was there something that made his refusal legit in his mind? He said he just he didn't feel like doing it. I don't know if the change in routine messed him up or what. It isn't even very difficult to do. The principal had a good talk with him yesterday. She asked if he was willing to throw away his senior year of football over this. I think that might have got him going for today. By the way, it is nice to have a principal that is in your corner! She was going to let me remove him from 1st block if he wouldn't do what he needed to do. |
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Post by silkyice on Feb 26, 2008 10:58:00 GMT -6
weird. You handled it the way you handled it - but was there really a need to go to DEFCON 3 over this and lay the gauntlet down? I'm not defending the kid, but the minute the kid refuses to do anything, send his sorry-butt home. The message should be that he can't be trusted by his team mates (which is what off-season lifting is really about, yes?). THAT is the the worst punishment the kid could have, because when you boil it all down, that is the real reason the kid is playing football (not to please some adult figure). It was weird. It was during class, so I couldn't send him home, that is why I sent him to the office. By the way, I handled it very calmly. I never raised my voice. I just let him know that to be on the team, he had to do it. And if he didn't do it today, then he would have more to do the next time he was in class. |
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Post by silkyice on Feb 26, 2008 12:11:33 GMT -6
It was just an initial offense. I just let him know that if he didn't do what he was suppossed to do Friday than he was going to do it anyway on Tuesday and extra. That was his "out." If he didn't do it on Tuesday than he was off the team. I wanted to give him time to think about it over the weekend.
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Post by dubber on Feb 26, 2008 12:27:52 GMT -6
I want to know why he had a problem doing that? Was there something that made his refusal legit in his mind? He said he just he didn't feel like doing it. I don't know if the change in routine messed him up or what. It isn't even very difficult to do. The principal had a good talk with him yesterday. She asked if he was willing to throw away his senior year of football over this. I think that might have got him going for today. By the way, it is nice to have a principal that is in your corner! She was going to let me remove him from 1st block if he wouldn't do what he needed to do. I would work for that admin any time!!!! Man, that kind of support is something you literally cannot put a price on. |
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Post by airman on Feb 26, 2008 12:40:02 GMT -6
personally i would have given you the middle finger. what does not wanting to rep out at 135 mean you get a ISS.
what is the purpose of repping out at 135 any way? sounds like a waste of time to me. muscular endurance is really counter productive to football anyway.
did you ask him why he did not want to rep out at 135?
I believe kids will do anything for you if you explain the how and why.
I think football coaches have watched to many war movies. you know the ones where the officer orders the enlisted to charge the hill no matter what. These officers are often the ones who get killed by there own enlisted. the days are over of the do as I say because I say.
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Post by wildcat on Feb 26, 2008 12:46:31 GMT -6
I would try really hard to find out why the kid refused to do it, especially if the kid has been a hard worker for you.
Also, I'm really not sure that this is something that falls into the category of whether or not to kick a kid off the team...IMO, this is pretty minor compared to a lot of other negative things kids can do.
How would I have handled it? I wouldn't have "punished" the kid at all...I would have told him, "well, I'm sorry that you feel that you don't have to do what your teammates are doing" and would have filed it away. Then, when it comes time to choose captains or if a starting position is between this kid and another kid, I would open that file up.
Had something very similar happen a few weeks ago...I wrote a "linemen program" for our offensive linemen...wanted them to do something special in the weight room that was different than everyone else. Had one of my junior linemen tell me that he wasn't going to do it because it took too long compared to his old program. I just told him, "Well, Mike...you gotta do what you gotta do" and walked away from him and left it at that. Now, that kid thinks that he got over on me...well, that's where he is wrong because his sorry butt won't see much PT this year once we get to the season. I have suspected that he is a lazy kid for a long time and now I have evidence that he is.
I think that sometimes, as coaches, we try to solve every problem with a hammer. Often, there are far better options...
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Post by silkyice on Feb 26, 2008 14:39:56 GMT -6
personally i would have given you the middle finger. what does not wanting to rep out at 135 mean you get a ISS. what is the purpose of repping out at 135 any way? sounds like a waste of time to me. muscular endurance is really counter productive to football anyway. did you ask him why he did not want to rep out at 135? I believe kids will do anything for you if you explain the how and why. I think football coaches have watched to many war movies. you know the ones where the officer orders the enlisted to charge the hill no matter what. These officers are often the ones who get killed by there own enlisted. the days are over of the do as I say because I say. So you would have given me the middle finger over asking you to do one set of repping out at 135? You would have thrown away your senior year away over that? Who said I didn't explain it what we were doing or how it would help them? He said he just didn't feel like doing it. Surely you don't think that is a good reason. In another thread you seem to say that character training does count. What would happen if his boss in the future asked him to do something and he refused? Couldn't he be fired. I am not doing some character training or life lesson by making him do what we ask? I don't feel that every single thing that a coach asks a kid to do has to be explained. Most - sure. Concepts - sure. But I don't have time to explain every single thing. It was bench press. Tomorrow, if I ask him to do a set of 3 on bench, do I have to explain that? I explained that we were doing a competetion, and I wanted to see how many each player could do. I also said you could get a rough max figure from how many you did. (Which by the way - turned out to be pretty accurate). I don't think you are against competetion or maxing out. Every other player enjoyed it and thought it was cool. By the way, I agree with you on repping out on 135 not being the best thing to do. This was the first time we have done it. We got rained out, so I was letting them have a competetion to see who could get the most - do something a little different. I believe one way to get better is to compete - in anything! I think this player was trying to get away with something. I believe he was testing the coaches. Please don't compare one set of repping out a 135 to charging up a hill to your death. |
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Post by silkyice on Feb 26, 2008 14:49:11 GMT -6
I would try really hard to find out why the kid refused to do it, especially if the kid has been a hard worker for you. Also, I'm really not sure that this is something that falls into the category of whether or not to kick a kid off the team...IMO, this is pretty minor compared to a lot of other negative things kids can do. How would I have handled it? I wouldn't have "punished" the kid at all...I would have told him, "well, I'm sorry that you feel that you don't have to do what your teammates are doing" and would have filed it away. Then, when it comes time to choose captains or if a starting position is between this kid and another kid, I would open that file up. Had something very similar happen a few weeks ago...I wrote a "linemen program" for our offensive linemen...wanted them to do something special in the weight room that was different than everyone else. Had one of my junior linemen tell me that he wasn't going to do it because it took too long compared to his old program. I just told him, "Well, Mike...you gotta do what you gotta do" and walked away from him and left it at that. Now, that kid thinks that he got over on me...well, that's where he is wrong because his sorry butt won't see much PT this year once we get to the season. I have suspected that he is a lazy kid for a long time and now I have evidence that he is. I think that sometimes, as coaches, we try to solve every problem with a hammer. Often, there are far better options... Wildcat, I actually think that you are being more unfair to the player by doing that than by kicking him off the team. Let me explain: He is now going to do all this other stuff and work for nine months, but has no chance of playing. Isn't that deceptive? Let him know where he stands. Think about it from a kids point of view, you said, "you gotta do what you gotta do." He might interpret that as meaning that it is ok do do something else. Now if you tell him that not doing what you asked might result in less playing time, then I have no problem with that. |
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Post by wildcat on Feb 26, 2008 15:00:33 GMT -6
I would try really hard to find out why the kid refused to do it, especially if the kid has been a hard worker for you. Also, I'm really not sure that this is something that falls into the category of whether or not to kick a kid off the team...IMO, this is pretty minor compared to a lot of other negative things kids can do. How would I have handled it? I wouldn't have "punished" the kid at all...I would have told him, "well, I'm sorry that you feel that you don't have to do what your teammates are doing" and would have filed it away. Then, when it comes time to choose captains or if a starting position is between this kid and another kid, I would open that file up. Had something very similar happen a few weeks ago...I wrote a "linemen program" for our offensive linemen...wanted them to do something special in the weight room that was different than everyone else. Had one of my junior linemen tell me that he wasn't going to do it because it took too long compared to his old program. I just told him, "Well, Mike...you gotta do what you gotta do" and walked away from him and left it at that. Now, that kid thinks that he got over on me...well, that's where he is wrong because his sorry butt won't see much PT this year once we get to the season. I have suspected that he is a lazy kid for a long time and now I have evidence that he is. I think that sometimes, as coaches, we try to solve every problem with a hammer. Often, there are far better options... Wildcat, I actually think that you are being more unfair to the player by doing that than by kicking him off the team. Let me explain: He is now going to do all this other stuff and work for nine months, but has no chance of playing. Isn't that deceptive? Let him know where he stands. Think about it from a kids point of view, you said, "you gotta do what you gotta do." He might interpret that as meaning that it is ok do do something else. Now if you tell him that not doing what you asked might result in less playing time, then I have no problem with that. Nahhhh...if the kid is the best at his position, he will play. Kid knows where he stands...if he out-performs the other kids at his position, he gets the gig. What I am saying is that this little incident (there have been others with this particular kid) will simply be used in the instance of a "tiebreaker"...for example, this kid and another kid are neck and neck for a starting spot, the kid who didn't want to work out with the other linemen won't get it. Thing is, this kid really isn't all that good to begin with. And this kid will NEVER be a captain or be in any kind of leadership position. But he will be allowed to compete for a job. If he is the best, he plays. If he isn't, he doesn't. Here's what it comes down to...it takes all kinds of kids to make up a football team. If every kid was a hard charger and did things 100% the way the coaches wanted things done, this would be a pretty easy job! You have to pick to battles...you have to recognize when you need to take a stand and when you need to let things go. IMO, this was not the time to "make a stand". |
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Post by brophy on Feb 26, 2008 15:06:52 GMT -6
silkyrice, I respect what you did and no one can really question what you've done as we've never walked in your shoes. However, what is the real intent of starting the thread if all that is taking place is just justifying every question raised? If you don't want to hear contrary opinions, were you expecting this to just be a back-slap session (" see, THESE guys agree with me!") I don't know if it is necessary, in the intent of the thread, to be as defensive of your position as some coaches have questioned some of the rationale here. Correct my ignorant take here. I think what is at question is ...... 1) kid is normally a hard worker 2) routine changed one day 3) kid didn't take to routine change 4) do this or else 5) or else.... 6) kid pays 'consequence' let me rephrase the question - was there no other way to diffuse the situation or was this just a question of loyalty / challenging your authority? Some of us respond differently in these situations. Is there a 'right' or 'wrong' approach? for the record, though my eloquence lacking, I agree with wildcat. Honestly, there is a difference between "character-training" and "obedience-training", just my personal take, but most of the teachers I know, don't seem to recognize this. WHAAAT!? You were threatened by his refusal to compete?  The kid didn't want to COMPETE - he doesn't have to, that would tell me everything I'd want to know (the whole point of the 'exercise', isn't it?) I think football coaches have watched to many war movies. you know the ones where the officer orders the enlisted to charge the hill no matter what. These officers are often the ones who get killed by there own enlisted. the days are over of the do as I say because I say. +10, that was freaking great, man! |
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Post by wildcat on Feb 26, 2008 15:41:28 GMT -6
I also think that there is something to be said for a measured and proportional response in situations like this...Again, I (and it seems like many others) think that what this kid did was pretty minor...how are you going to "punish" other transgressions? What are you going to do when a kid shows up late to something or loses a piece of equipment or misses a practice? IMO, those are all FAR more serious than a good kid deciding not to do one, single exercise in the weight room. The thing is, if you used the hammer on this kid for such a minor "offense", you will have NO CHOICE but to use the hammer for every other little chickensh*t thing that comes up.
Have you talked to this kid yet? Have you asked him WHY he didn't want to do it? Have you explained to him that you were disappointed in his choice...that you tink of him as a good, hardworking kid and you found what he did to be out-of-character? The thing is, by doing that, you are putting the onus back on HIM...you are forcing him to take responsibility for his behavior and to confront what he did...how he put you, as a football coach and a teacher, in a really awkward position.
Isn't there an old saying...something about catching more flies with honey than with vinegar?
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Post by brophy on Feb 26, 2008 15:47:05 GMT -6
Forgive me if i'm out of line, but I wonder if you teachers ever think about these kids in your room as someone else's kids?
I'm jes sayin'.....
If YOUR KID is in social studies at his/her school and the teacher breaks from the 18th century European Renaissance history assignment and asks everyone to offer their opinion of the election. Your kid doesn't want to offer an opinion about something they don't feel qualified - so the teacher gives him detention.
When you hear your kid got detention for some piddly sh** like this, are you saying, "damnstraight! I guess that teacher told you!". Or do you think the teacher made a moutain out of a mole hill?
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Post by gschwender on Feb 26, 2008 16:26:27 GMT -6
There is a lot of bs that kids deal with at home etc. I would sit down with the kid and see what his thinking was for being that way. I would also explain to him (if he is a senior) that that type of attitude is seen by the others in his class and could be dtrimental to the overall morale. I definately would not kick him off the team--only as a last resort, but explain that the next time it happened he would have double the punishment and encourage him to come to you if he is dealing with any problems before it came to a head. If you show the kids respect they will show you respect.
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Post by phantom on Feb 26, 2008 16:44:55 GMT -6
I have a real problem with a player flat out refusing to do what his coach told him to do and the explanation that he didn't feel like it. Is he going to refuse to carry out an assignment in a game because he doesn't feel like it?
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Post by gschwender on Feb 26, 2008 17:01:03 GMT -6
I agree, but i would not kick him off the team unless it was a reoccurring problem.
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Post by silkyice on Feb 26, 2008 17:25:23 GMT -6
Forgive me if i'm out of line, but I wonder if you teachers ever think about these kids in your room as someone else's kids? I'm jes sayin'..... If YOUR KID is in social studies at his/her school and the teacher breaks from the 18th century European Renaissance history assignment and asks everyone to offer their opinion of the election. Your kid doesn't want to offer an opinion about something they don't feel qualified - so the teacher gives him detention. When you hear your kid got detention for some piddly sh** like this, are you saying, "damnstraight! I guess that teacher told you!". Or do you think the teacher made a moutain out of a mole hill? You are twisting the situation. It is a strength and conditioning class for football. Doing bench press is completely within the guidelines. He is qualified to do a bench press. Next there is a team aspect. If he doesn't do a bench press, then is ok for somone else to not run 20's? Or someone else not squat? Or someone else to not block someone or cover someone? Let's put it on your own kid since you brought it up. If your son comes home and says that the coach will kick him off the team if he doesn't do one stinking set of bench press tomorrow, then how will you react? How will you react when you ask your son why, and he says "I didn't feel like it." |
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Post by phantom on Feb 26, 2008 17:28:11 GMT -6
I agree, but i would not kick him off the team unless it was a reoccurring problem. Oh, I agree. We would have a pointed conversation and probably a few up-downs. |
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Post by silkyice on Feb 26, 2008 17:30:35 GMT -6
I also think that there is something to be said for a measured and proportional response in situations like this...Again, I (and it seems like many others) think that what this kid did was pretty minor...how are you going to "punish" other transgressions? What are you going to do when a kid shows up late to something or loses a piece of equipment or misses a practice? IMO, those are all FAR more serious than a good kid deciding not to do one, single exercise in the weight room. The thing is, if you used the hammer on this kid for such a minor "offense", you will have NO CHOICE but to use the hammer for every other little chickensh*t thing that comes up. Have you talked to this kid yet? Have you asked him WHY he didn't want to do it? Have you explained to him that you were disappointed in his choice...that you tink of him as a good, hardworking kid and you found what he did to be out-of-character? The thing is, by doing that, you are putting the onus back on HIM...you are forcing him to take responsibility for his behavior and to confront what he did...how he put you, as a football coach and a teacher, in a really awkward position. Isn't there an old saying...something about catching more flies with honey than with vinegar? I did talk with him. He didn't feel like doing it. I told him that I want him on the team, that we need him, that he is a hard worker, and that I like him. I did put the onus back on him. He had until Tuesday instead of doing it on Friday. Losing a piece of equipment or being late do not compare in my book to refusing to do what a coach asks. They will have to run, but it is not defiance (unless it is recurring). Not doing what is asked is flat-out defiance. Missing practice unexcused will get you not playing that week. Do it again and see ya later. |
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Post by brophy on Feb 26, 2008 17:42:00 GMT -6
Forgive me if i'm out of line, but I wonder if you teachers ever think about these kids in your room as someone else's kids? I'm jes sayin'..... If YOUR KID is in social studies at his/her school and the teacher breaks from the 18th century European Renaissance history assignment and asks everyone to offer their opinion of the election. Your kid doesn't want to offer an opinion about something they don't feel qualified - so the teacher gives him detention. When you hear your kid got detention for some piddly sh** like this, are you saying, "damnstraight! I guess that teacher told you!". Or do you think the teacher made a moutain out of a mole hill? You are twisting the situation. It is a strength and conditioning class for football. Doing bench press is completely within the guidelines. He is qualified to do a bench press. Next there is a team aspect. If he doesn't do a bench press, then is ok for somone else to not run 20's? Or someone else not squat? Or someone else to not block someone or cover someone? Let's put it on your own kid since you brought it up. If your son comes home and says that the coach will kick him off the team if he doesn't do one stinking set of bench press tomorrow, then how will you react? How will you react when you ask your son why, and he says "I didn't feel like it." wait a minute......I think I've seen this somewhere before.......oh, yeah.... let me get this straight - YOU started a thread entitled, "reasonable OR NOT?" Then you shout down and dismiss any explanation for "OR NOT".....so this really wasn't an open discussion, just a personal self-congratulations for doing 'what is right and decent in America'? I don't get that - what was the point of posting this, then? |
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Post by phantom on Feb 26, 2008 17:44:42 GMT -6
I also think that there is something to be said for a measured and proportional response in situations like this...Again, I (and it seems like many others) think that what this kid did was pretty minor...how are you going to "punish" other transgressions? What are you going to do when a kid shows up late to something or loses a piece of equipment or misses a practice? IMO, those are all FAR more serious than a good kid deciding not to do one, single exercise in the weight room. The thing is, if you used the hammer on this kid for such a minor "offense", you will have NO CHOICE but to use the hammer for every other little chickensh*t thing that comes up. Have you talked to this kid yet? Have you asked him WHY he didn't want to do it? Have you explained to him that you were disappointed in his choice...that you tink of him as a good, hardworking kid and you found what he did to be out-of-character? The thing is, by doing that, you are putting the onus back on HIM...you are forcing him to take responsibility for his behavior and to confront what he did...how he put you, as a football coach and a teacher, in a really awkward position. Isn't there an old saying...something about catching more flies with honey than with vinegar? I did talk with him. He didn't feel like doing it. I told him that I want him on the team, that we need him, that he is a hard worker, and that I like him. I did put the onus back on him. He had until Tuesday instead of doing it on Friday. Losing a piece of equipment or being late do not compare in my book to refusing to do what a coach asks. They will have to run, but it is not defiance (unless it is recurring). Not doing what is asked is flat-out defiance. Missing practice unexcused will get you not playing that week. Do it again and see ya later. I agree. |
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Post by matt5054 on Feb 26, 2008 18:16:04 GMT -6
I have been a little surprised by some of these responses. I'm sure it would be fine if this same player refused to run or call an offensive or defensive play you call in the middle of a ballgame because he didn't see the importance of that play, "didn't feel like calling it." Doesn't matter what the coach asked him to do, he asked him to lift weights in weight class, how do you defend that (middle finger, you got to be kidding me)? Some of you are defending the kids actions by legitamizing them.
Bottom line is that football is a voluntary activity, and weightlifting, at least at my school, is an extension of the team goals. This young man was probably having a rough day or had some reason to react the way he did, but that isn't the point, he made a decision, he pays the consequences. I beleive in the "money in the bank" philosophy. If he had been a good kid, he deserves another chance as long as he pays the price, if he is a repeat offender or doesn't pay the price, he has no money in the bank and he'd be gone. All of this being HIS decision.
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Post by k on Feb 26, 2008 18:22:16 GMT -6
He got two days ISS (Friday and Monday). I wouldn't teach in your school or coach in your program. A student got ISS for not doing a lift? Are you serious? I feel bad for the students in the school and on the team. =( |
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Post by silkyice on Feb 26, 2008 18:22:30 GMT -6
Wildcat, I actually think that you are being more unfair to the player by doing that than by kicking him off the team. Let me explain: He is now going to do all this other stuff and work for nine months, but has no chance of playing. Isn't that deceptive? Let him know where he stands. Think about it from a kids point of view, you said, "you gotta do what you gotta do." He might interpret that as meaning that it is ok do do something else. Now if you tell him that not doing what you asked might result in less playing time, then I have no problem with that. Nahhhh...if the kid is the best at his position, he will play. Kid knows where he stands...if he out-performs the other kids at his position, he gets the gig. What I am saying is that this little incident (there have been others with this particular kid) will simply be used in the instance of a "tiebreaker"...for example, this kid and another kid are neck and neck for a starting spot, the kid who didn't want to work out with the other linemen won't get it. Thing is, this kid really isn't all that good to begin with. And this kid will NEVER be a captain or be in any kind of leadership position. But he will be allowed to compete for a job. If he is the best, he plays. If he isn't, he doesn't. Here's what it comes down to...it takes all kinds of kids to make up a football team. If every kid was a hard charger and did things 100% the way the coaches wanted things done, this would be a pretty easy job! You have to pick to battles...you have to recognize when you need to take a stand and when you need to let things go. IMO, this was not the time to "make a stand". I understand, and will agree. |
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