|
Post by k on Feb 26, 2008 18:31:30 GMT -6
You would have thrown away your senior year away over that? I'd personally be looking to change schools and destroy the coach who gave me an ISS for not doing a lift...
|
|
|
Post by phantom on Feb 26, 2008 18:44:46 GMT -6
K, you instructed a player to do something and he refused. How would you handle it.
Scenario 2- you called a play at a crucial part of a game and he refused to run it. How would you handle that? What's the difference?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2008 18:52:08 GMT -6
First, I want to say it's getting to the point where brophy needs all of his posts published in a book!!
I think the stretch that this kid would refuse to do something in a game is going too far. It seems to me the player/coach relationship here was good. I think it could have been handled less dramatically. Send the kid to the hall and call for a one-on-one meeting after school or something. If I had a student refuse to do a writing assignment in English class, I would send him outside the room and meet with him later and see what was going on. I don't think you necessarily did the wrong thing, silkyice, it just seems like you skipped a couple steps before the "showdown".
True case scenario--I called on a football player to read a certain part of a play in class and he refused. He's a good kid, I never had a problem with him before, so I didn't overreact. I sent him out into the hall and we talked about it after class. I found out what was bothering him and we settled it.
|
|
|
Post by wildcat on Feb 26, 2008 18:53:41 GMT -6
Let's not get personal here...no need for that.
I like these threads because these things are real...these kinds of things happen from time to time...
When I was a player, I would have lit myself on fire and run through the cafeteria at high noon buck naked if one of my coaches told me to...that's just how I was...my coaches were God-like figures to me and I put each of them on a pedestal...heck, when I run into them now, some 16 years later, I STILL address them as "Coach_____"...would NEVER think of calling them by their first names.
The thing is, kids today AREN'T like that, by and large...the kids we have to lead are products of MTV-style do-what-feels-good-and-have-a-great-time-doing it marketing and advertising and have seen the "me-first" attitude rewarded (Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, Paris Hilton) and many of them won't do something simply because the coach says so.
The place I'm coaching now...the players refer to the coaches by their last name. So, I'm not "Coach Dertz" (except to a handful of kids). Instead, I am simply "Dertz". I HATE it...it ticks me off to NO END when kids call me by my last name like I am one of their buddies BUT, it is what it is...where I coach, that is the "accepted" norm (not just in football...in ALL sports). Now, that is probably an extreme example, but, the point is that kids don't view coaches and teachers as the authority figures we were 15-20 years ago.
So, how do you do it? When you have a bunch of these kinds of kids on the team...how do you motivate them when "win one for the Gipper" or "because I said so" doesn't get the job done?
|
|
|
Post by silkyice on Feb 26, 2008 19:07:28 GMT -6
Then you shout down and dismiss any explanation for "OR NOT".....so this really wasn't an open discussion, just a personal self-congratulations for doing 'what is right and decent in America'? I don't get that - what was the point of posting this, then? Brophy, You are making no sense. An open discussion is that - an open discussion. I didn't realize that when you start a thread that you can't continue to debate. I didn't realize that I shouted anyone down. Sorry if I did. Most (not all) of my responses have been to questions asked in the thread of me. Did you talk with him? Why didn't he do it? etc. One minute you say that I shouldn't have gone DEFCON 3, then the next you say I should have sent his sorry-butt home. I couldn't send him home. It was at school. I sent him to the office. I would think you would think that was the next best thing. The only thing I got defensive about was when Airman said he would have given me the middle finger and then attacking me for asking a kid to do a set of repout on 135. Sorry for responding to someone saying "f" you and attacking just a basic weight training exercise.
|
|
|
Post by phantom on Feb 26, 2008 19:11:07 GMT -6
Let's not get personal here...no need for that. I like these threads because these things are real...these kinds of things happen from time to time... When I was a player, I would have lit myself on fire and run through the cafeteria at high noon buck naked if one of my coaches told me to...that's just how I was...my coaches were God-like figures to me and I put each of them on a pedestal...heck, when I run into them now, some 16 years later, I STILL address them as "Coach_____"...would NEVER think of calling them by their first names. The thing is, kids today AREN'T like that, by and large...the kids we have to lead are products of MTV-style do-what-feels-good-and-have-a-great-time-doing it marketing and advertising and have seen the "me-first" attitude rewarded (Terrel Owens, Randy Moss, Paris Hilton) and they simply won't do something simply because the coach says so. The place I'm coaching now...the players refer to the coaches by their last name. So, I'm not "Coach Dertz" (except to a handful of kids). Instead, I am simply "Dertz". I HATE it...it ticks me off to NO END when kids call me by my last name like I am one of their buddies BUT, it is what it is...where I coach, that is the "accepted" norm (not just in football...in ALL sports). Now, that is probably an extreme example, but, the point is that kids don't view coaches and teachers as the authority figures we were 15-20 years ago. So, how do you do it? When you have a bunch of these kinds of kids on the team...how do you motivate them when "win one for the Gipper" or "because I said so" doesn't get the job done? You don't accept it. If, in your opinion, you're not being shown proper respect don't put up with it. Inform him as nicely as you feel necessarily that you are Coach Dertz. Doesn't have to be a big blow up. Get your point across, though, and don't accept any less than what you expect.
|
|
|
Post by silkyice on Feb 26, 2008 19:13:53 GMT -6
He got two days ISS (Friday and Monday). I wouldn't teach in your school or coach in your program. A student got ISS for not doing a lift? Are you serious? I feel bad for the students in the school and on the team. =( There is a little more to it. I was trying not to type too much initially. After I told him that he would have to do it the next day and a bear crawl, we as a class went to the gym to play basketball. Since he didn't fulfill the requirements of the class that day, he was instructed to stay in the weight room with another coach. He went to the gym anyway. I told him he needed to go back to the weight room and the reason why. He refused. That is the reason why he was sent to the office. The office gave him ISS. I didn't. But I do believe they did the right thing. Our school treats every class, no matter what, the same. If a kid wouldn't go where a teacher told him to go, then he would get ISS.
|
|
|
Post by wildcat on Feb 26, 2008 19:15:16 GMT -6
Let's not get personal here...no need for that. I like these threads because these things are real...these kinds of things happen from time to time... When I was a player, I would have lit myself on fire and run through the cafeteria at high noon buck naked if one of my coaches told me to...that's just how I was...my coaches were God-like figures to me and I put each of them on a pedestal...heck, when I run into them now, some 16 years later, I STILL address them as "Coach_____"...would NEVER think of calling them by their first names. The thing is, kids today AREN'T like that, by and large...the kids we have to lead are products of MTV-style do-what-feels-good-and-have-a-great-time-doing it marketing and advertising and have seen the "me-first" attitude rewarded (Terrel Owens, Randy Moss, Paris Hilton) and they simply won't do something simply because the coach says so. The place I'm coaching now...the players refer to the coaches by their last name. So, I'm not "Coach Dertz" (except to a handful of kids). Instead, I am simply "Dertz". I HATE it...it ticks me off to NO END when kids call me by my last name like I am one of their buddies BUT, it is what it is...where I coach, that is the "accepted" norm (not just in football...in ALL sports). Now, that is probably an extreme example, but, the point is that kids don't view coaches and teachers as the authority figures we were 15-20 years ago. So, how do you do it? When you have a bunch of these kinds of kids on the team...how do you motivate them when "win one for the Gipper" or "because I said so" doesn't get the job done? You don't accept it. If, in your opinion, you're not being shown proper respect don't put up with it. Inform him as nicely as you feel necessarily that you are Coach Dertz. Doesn't have to be a big blow up. Get your point across, though, and don't accept any less than what you expect. Well...like I said, where I am at, it is the "lay of the land"...that's what our head coach allows (I'm not the head coach). If I was the head coach, I would do things differently, but I'm not, so, IMO, it is either bite my lip and vent on "Coach Huey" or find somewhere else to coach. ;D
|
|
|
Post by phantom on Feb 26, 2008 19:19:43 GMT -6
You don't accept it. If, in your opinion, you're not being shown proper respect don't put up with it. Inform him as nicely as you feel necessarily that you are Coach Dertz. Doesn't have to be a big blow up. Get your point across, though, and don't accept any less than what you expect. Well...like I said, where I am at, it is the "lay of the land"...that's what our head coach allows (I'm not the head coach). If I was the head coach, I would do things differently, but I'm not, so, IMO, it is either bite my lip and vent on "Coach Huey" or find somewhere else to coach. ;D Understandable.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Feb 26, 2008 19:46:33 GMT -6
My jaw almost hit the ground when I saw how many coaches began to rationalize this behavior. "Oh, kids don't look at coaches as authority figures anymore...oh, well, maybe he was having a rough day....he didn't adjust well to a change in routine...or....the FOOLISH analogy about officers instructing enlisted men to charge up a hill."
JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUS.
CHAIN OF COMMAND. Goes one way. Non negotiable. I agree 100% that an athlete needs to buy in, or get out. He is not allowed to choose his activities. I agree 100% that there isn't a long journey between not wanting to rep out 135, and then not wanting to spill to an unblocked player. Why do that when I can "make the play" (even though we as coaches realize that running around the block does not make the play) Hey, I didn't want to bench 135....and you know what..I don't want to key the v of the neck... I want to look in the backfield. Screw the potential lead draw..I am not going to bull rush vs I backs...I am going to get up field and make the sack.
ONE VOICE, ONE HEARTBEAT, ONE GOAL....These are the keys to success, not group collaboration and making sure everyone feels good.
As far as ISS and such, well, it was a school matter...and the school handled that. I AM 100% in agreement with silky ice.
|
|
|
Post by coachweav88 on Feb 26, 2008 19:56:38 GMT -6
Is this just a class for football players? Do all football players have to take this class? I'm just curious because I am a substitute teacher and I handle class differently than I do football practice. If I'm subbing a PE class and some kid tells me he or she doesn't want to dress, I ususally tell them "ok, you don't have to dress, but I'll have to write your name down and the regular teacher will probably dock your grade for the day." (I don't give grades as a sub), but that's your decision. I actually had that happen with some girls in PE and that's exactly what I did. They sat there and did nothing, but I'm sure their grade was affected. No hard feelings, they got their consequences and we moved on with it.
If a kid refused to do a drill at football practice, he'd probably either get sent home or spend the entire practice jogging (still at practice, but not allowed to participate). If this happened consistently, he'd probably be off the team.
Personally, I'd treat this as a class and not football practice and just dock his grade and let him sit there. Maybe, I don't get the whole dynamics of the situation. It's just what I would do.
|
|
|
Post by silkyice on Feb 26, 2008 20:02:49 GMT -6
Is this just a class for football players? Do all football players have to take this class? I'm just curious because I am a substitute teacher and I handle class differently than I do football practice. If I'm subbing a PE class and some kid tells me he or she doesn't want to dress, I ususally tell them "ok, you don't have to dress, but I'll have to write your name down and the regular teacher will probably dock your grade for the day." (I don't give grades as a sub), but that's your decision. I actually had that happen with some girls in PE and that's exactly what I did. They sat there and did nothing, but I'm sure their grade was affected. No hard feelings, they got their consequences and we moved on with it. If a kid refused to do a drill at football practice, he'd probably either get sent home or spend the entire practice jogging (still at practice, but not allowed to participate). If this happened consistently, he'd probably be off the team. Personally, I'd treat this as a class and not football practice and just dock his grade and let him sit there. Maybe, I don't get the whole dynamics of the situation. It's just what I would do. Mainly football players. If I handled just as a class, then they could pick and choose there activities. A daily zero doesn't hurt their grade that much. I have been at a school where they did that. Guess what. Tough day, half the kids didn't dress. Not gonna happen in our football program.
|
|
|
Post by brophy on Feb 26, 2008 20:18:12 GMT -6
so this isn't a football-exclusive PE class?
Would the punishment been the same if it were a regular student / girl, not a football player?
|
|
|
Post by coachweav88 on Feb 26, 2008 20:20:27 GMT -6
Mainly football players. If I handled just as a class, then they could pick and choose there activities. A daily zero doesn't hurt their grade that much. I have been at a school where they did that. Guess what. Tough day, half the kids didn't dress. Not gonna happen in our football program. I see. We just have different situations. At every school I've been at weight lifting for football has always been after school. In Ohio, you can't make offseason lifting mandatory. You can offer incentives (pride points, etc.) but you can't actually make them come lift i.e. off the team if you don't come.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Feb 26, 2008 20:30:57 GMT -6
so this isn't a football-exclusive PE class? Would the punishment been the same if it were a regular student / girl, not a football player? a better question would be..WHAT would the football punishment have been had that type of insubordination had existed in MATH class. I guarantee you that at the schools I have been associated with, it would have been as severe if not noticeably worse. This is a situation where the football coach received IMMEDIATE "feedback" from the "teacher" (who happens to be the coach) regarding an insubordinate student.
|
|
|
Post by silkyice on Feb 26, 2008 21:13:01 GMT -6
Would the punishment been the same if it were a regular student / girl, not a football player? Yes. He wouldn't have been allowed to go to the gym for baseketball when we finsihed. If that person went to the gym anyway and then refused to go back to the weight room with the other coach, I would have sent him to the office.
|
|
|
Post by gacoach on Feb 27, 2008 9:33:07 GMT -6
I am the ISS teacher at the school where I coach and a student/athlete has never been sent to ISS for something like this. If a player refuses to do this for his weightlifting teacher/football coach, you know what he gets.......a zero for the day.
I think 2 days of ISS was overkill.
|
|
|
Post by brophy on Feb 27, 2008 9:51:32 GMT -6
I think 2 days of ISS was overkill. that is all I was trying to say (earlier) but I am not a good communicator. It isn't about 'letting things slide' or letting the inmates run the prison or allowing the fall of civilization to take place because someone is not obedient to a command. This isn't about letting kids get away with murder. No one is suggesting that there shouldn't be a consequent / cause-effect to the action. What does the kid that DOES get 2 days of ISS usually have to do to earn that? Skip school, tell a teacher off, cheat on an assignment? It was justifying the extreme. If this is par for the course at your school, then you have nothing to even have a concern over.
|
|
|
Post by k on Feb 27, 2008 9:57:06 GMT -6
K, you instructed a player to do something and he refused. How would you handle it. Scenario 2- you called a play at a crucial part of a game and he refused to run it. How would you handle that? What's the difference? Laps, updowns, benching. Not suspending the kid from his classes.
|
|
|
Post by k on Feb 27, 2008 10:13:14 GMT -6
a better question would be..WHAT would the football punishment have been had that type of insubordination had existed in MATH class. I guarantee you that at the schools I have been associated with, it would have been as severe if not noticeably worse. Holy cow where are these schools Iran? Suspension for not doing a single assignment?!?!?!?!
|
|
|
Post by phantom on Feb 27, 2008 10:25:09 GMT -6
K, you instructed a player to do something and he refused. How would you handle it. Scenario 2- you called a play at a crucial part of a game and he refused to run it. How would you handle that? What's the difference? Laps, updowns, benching. Not suspending the kid from his classes. OK. We don't disagree, then.
|
|
|
Post by raiderpirates on Feb 27, 2008 10:57:40 GMT -6
Speed before strength.
|
|
|
Post by silkyice on Feb 27, 2008 11:05:53 GMT -6
I wouldn't teach in your school or coach in your program. A student got ISS for not doing a lift? Are you serious? I feel bad for the students in the school and on the team. =( There is a little more to it. I was trying not to type too much initially. After I told him that he would have to do it the next day and a bear crawl, we as a class went to the gym to play basketball. Since he didn't fulfill the requirements of the class that day, he was instructed to stay in the weight room with another coach. He went to the gym anyway. I told him he needed to go back to the weight room and the reason why. He refused. That is the reason why he was sent to the office. The office gave him ISS. I didn't. But I do believe they did the right thing. Our school treats every class, no matter what, the same. If a kid wouldn't go where a teacher told him to go, then he would get ISS. k, I understand what you are saying. I should have told the entire reason why he got ISS to begin with, but I was trying to keep the story somewhat short. By the way that is only the second time I have sent a kid to the office the entire year. The other wasn't even in my class, but there was a fight as I was walking through gym and sent the two kids to the office. The football part I handled as football - do it by the next day plus an extra bear crawl. Which is very similar to what you said - extra laps, updowns, etc. For him refusing to go where I told him at school - that is what sending him to the office was about. Then the office decided on ISS. Sorry for not being clear to begin with.
|
|
|
Post by knighter on Feb 27, 2008 12:45:47 GMT -6
INSUBORDINATION IN A HS CLASS being dealt with by an administrator with ISS, what's the problem with that? This is a CLASS guys, let's keep that in mind as we debate it. I have had kids be insubordinate in my classroom, and they were dealt with (detentions, Saturday School, ISS). This was a "classroom" situation. Not a "before" or "after" school weightlifting session.
Some of us need to learn to read more closely.
And by the way in my classroom it is done "MY WAY" there is no highway option. Don't like it, get your own classrrom and run it your way.
|
|
|
Post by airman on Feb 27, 2008 13:51:05 GMT -6
Then you shout down and dismiss any explanation for "OR NOT".....so this really wasn't an open discussion, just a personal self-congratulations for doing 'what is right and decent in America'? I don't get that - what was the point of posting this, then? Brophy, You are making no sense. An open discussion is that - an open discussion. I didn't realize that when you start a thread that you can't continue to debate. I didn't realize that I shouted anyone down. Sorry if I did. Most (not all) of my responses have been to questions asked in the thread of me. Did you talk with him? Why didn't he do it? etc. One minute you say that I shouldn't have gone DEFCON 3, then the next you say I should have sent his sorry-butt home. I couldn't send him home. It was at school. I sent him to the office. I would think you would think that was the next best thing. The only thing I got defensive about was when Airman said he would have given me the middle finger and then attacking me for asking a kid to do a set of repout on 135. Sorry for responding to someone saying "f" you and attacking just a basic weight training exercise. if you felt attacked that is your problem. I am not responsible for your feelings. sticks and stones can break my bones but names will never hurt me. if you apply this, you will not be offened. I do agree you seemed to be looking for a pat on the back hear. I did not attack you. I simply asked what the purpose was. some times I think coached like to just think up activities to keep players busy. as for extending the middle finger, that would have been as a result of getting ISS for two days. I guess I am the opposite I explain the how and the way. Just my way to doing it. I just think some times coaches make mountains out of mole hills. the worst think you can do it take it personal when I kid says he does not want to do some thing. your attitude in the situation is crucial.
|
|
|
Post by coachorr on Feb 27, 2008 14:54:17 GMT -6
Airman, Brophy and Wildcat. Nice posts. Here is some advice that may help all of us:
"Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweatty things."
In otherwords, aside from acting in an obscene, vulgar, or negligent manner: I see no reason for ISS. What is more, I would only on very rare occaission (see above) usurp my authority to the administration.
I love the "money in the bank", comment; however, one must be careful with favoritism, but I love the concept.
Give the kid a zero for the day and treat it as if he did not dress down. Do you have makeups for this type of behavior?
|
|
|
Post by brophy on Feb 27, 2008 15:00:48 GMT -6
let me apologize for coming off as a jerkoff - for some reason I have a knack for doing that.
I am misguided in my interpretation because I was confused on a few issues;
There were a lot of definitions thrown around that caused me to not understand the situation as you lived it. Couple that with my ignorance of not being a teacher, or living in "that world". The teachers I do know, DO live in a "different world" that can many times be separate from reality and dealing with situations.
I guess I'm still confused, but whatever you did was what it is and you believe in it - and I guess that is all that matters.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Feb 27, 2008 16:12:20 GMT -6
a better question would be..WHAT would the football punishment have been had that type of insubordination had existed in MATH class. I guarantee you that at the schools I have been associated with, it would have been as severe if not noticeably worse. Holy cow where are these schools Iran? Suspension for not doing a single assignment?!?!?!?! As knigher pointed out..many here need to read a bit more, rather than instantly visualize the situations at hand. Message clearly states that after failing to complete the assignment, the student was directed to stay in one place, as the remainder of the class went to another activity. Student refused. End of Story. Again, Had this been a math class, with a non-coach teacher...and I get the report that the student did the same thing...The penalty would have probably been more severe.
|
|
|
Post by knighter on Feb 27, 2008 16:45:16 GMT -6
Brophy-
Not a jerkoff at all. Just never lived in the world of an educator. Insubordination from a student in every district that I have ever taught in was dealt with in a similar fashion. I had administrators who were quick to point out that it was, in fact, the teachers (professionals) in the building who were in charge. I never handed out ISS or Saturday school, that was administrators. In fact I gave only 1 detention in 11 years, every other detention was issued by and administrator (even if it went against how I thought it could be handled better).
In this situation (if I am reading it correctly) it was dealt with in the appropriate channels, and discipline aspect was handled by someone other than a classroom teacher. (and like I said we often do not necessarily agree with how they choose to deal with things).
Insubordination in my new school is dealt with even more harshly. LOL Public school kids would pee themselves if they saw what can happen here. (not abuse or anything, but believe me kids do what we tell them to do, when we tell them to do it, and how we tell them to do it here). Most are very compliant for me anyway, as they understand that if they want to be on the team, they need to do what I ask of them. I treat them with respect, and all I ask of them is to give me a great effort, and to do what I ask them to do to their best ability. Kind of refreshing, but kids here at CA are a helluva lot more respectful than at the public schools I have worked at.
Think of it this way, your boss tells you he wants you to do X,Y, and Z and he wants it done by Friday. If you refuse to do so (which in your case I know would not be the case as I know you are a professional) how long are you going to have a job? And do you ask "why" he wants you to do it?
Again, life lessons are what this is all about. I have worked for bosses I disagree with, and have been asked to do things that were pointless (IMO) BUT as a professional in need of a paycheck I consider myself to be a good employee...in other words if the boss says it needs to be done, I find a way to grin and bear it.
|
|
|
Post by coachorr on Feb 27, 2008 16:53:35 GMT -6
Great post Knighter, and might I add, that we as coaches do play a role in the development of the person. The best thing we can do for players is set expectations and hold them accountable. So, I can appreciate how the coach handled the situation. Brophy, don't let KNighter lie to you, you are a real jerk off. "That's two months, you wanna make it three?"
|
|