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Post by airraider on Dec 30, 2012 13:21:55 GMT -6
I remember a thread on here LONG ago where people debated over whether or not a coordinator should be able to run whatever he wants despite the HC's wishes... some were for and some against... just goes to show you the different points of view... which obviously could lead to certain situations...
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Post by davishfc on Dec 30, 2012 13:26:07 GMT -6
If the HC doesn't like what the OC runs then Why hire him? Sometimes you won't necessarily know fully what you're getting yourself into with a particular hire. However, after you work with that person, then you know exactly what you got and whether you can see yourself working with that person long term. Beilema worked with Canada for one year at Wisconsin, Beilema gets hired at Arkansas. Beilema has a chance to bring Canada with him, Canada ends up at NC State. So, to answer your question, Beilema didn't hire him.
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Post by davishfc on Dec 30, 2012 13:32:28 GMT -6
I remember a thread on here LONG ago where people debated over whether or not a coordinator should be able to run whatever he wants despite the HC's wishes... some were for and some against... just goes to show you the different points of view... which obviously could lead to certain situations... How many of those FOR were actually HCs? Aren't those the only opinions that would matter in that scenario?
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Post by airraider on Dec 30, 2012 13:36:56 GMT -6
I remember a thread on here LONG ago where people debated over whether or not a coordinator should be able to run whatever he wants despite the HC's wishes... some were for and some against... just goes to show you the different points of view... which obviously could lead to certain situations... How many of those FOR were actually HCs? Aren't those the only opinions that would matter in that scenario? I can't really remember.. but there were several who said the coordinator should have complete control...
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Post by davishfc on Dec 30, 2012 13:38:45 GMT -6
Sometimes it's just a case of "too many chiefs, not enough indians" in my opinion. Offense is only part of the big picture. The head coach always has the big picture in mind while OCs sometimes have the ability of getting caught up in the success of the offense exclusively. Why wouldn't they? That's what they're in charge of.
If the OC is a hard core Air Raid or West Coast guy but the defense is having a rough time because of occasional "9 second 3 and outs" the HC will we see the big picture. The OC may be blinded by the mentality of "well it should work, it has to work, it will work" that he loses site of what's happening to the team as a whole.
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Post by spos21ram on Dec 30, 2012 13:42:22 GMT -6
I remember a thread on here LONG ago where people debated over whether or not a coordinator should be able to run whatever he wants despite the HC's wishes... some were for and some against... just goes to show you the different points of view... which obviously could lead to certain situations... The level of football will have a lot to do with the answer IMO. In high school it's not easy to find good coaches whom you can trust. At the college and pro level these OC's make big bucks for what they do. Most have full control at the higher levels. It's almost like role reversal between the OC and HC where the HC will give suggestions. If the OC ignores them and the offense is struggling then the HC will step in and demand his suggestions are implemented. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using proboards
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Post by davishfc on Dec 30, 2012 13:43:37 GMT -6
How many of those FOR were actually HCs? Aren't those the only opinions that would matter in that scenario? I can't really remember.. but there were several who said the coordinator should have complete control... Several HCs? I'm sure there were several responses. Of course the coordinators would say they should have complete control. Any position coach who chimed in wants to believe when he gets an opportunity as a coordinator he'll have complete control. So I'm just saying, the inquiry into this may have been a bit skewed. This is not something I think could be talked about by anybody besides head coaches. It's one of those things that ANYBODY could say they'd do a certain way, but until you're in that position as a head coach deciding "do I allow complete control of the O, D, or ST?" or "will I be involved slightly or heavily involved in the decision making for those units?"
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Post by davishfc on Dec 30, 2012 13:46:07 GMT -6
The level of football will have a lot to do with the answer IMO. In high school it's not easy to find good coaches whom you can trust. At the college and pro level these OC's make big bucks for what they do. Most have full control at the higher levels. Very true.
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Post by coachbuck on Dec 31, 2012 2:02:31 GMT -6
My H.S. experience this year with the var HC was much different. I had a difference of opinion on several issues in private. I would then be ignored by the var staff. It was a crazy deal. I resigned and am moving on. If your ego is so big that you cant have someone disagree with you then you should not be an HC. I would then be ignored by the var staff. This concerns me because I doubt he would've told the rest of the staff to give you the cold shoulder. Sounds very high school girl-ish to me. Not Head Coach. So if that were the case, and the staff did ignore you, why was that? What was brought up on your end that ended up so isolating for you? I think the other part of this is the amount and tone of the critiquing by a first year assistant is never taken well. So reflecting on what you brought up and how you brought it up are important factors to consider. I wasnt a first year assistant. I was the fresh HC. We just had some disagreements and yes the OC would ignore me. Yes it was childish. I cant tell you why they act the way they do. Once I left and had a different job the resentment got even worse. Thats for another thread. My point is as grown men we should be able to have disagreements behind closed doors and the next day we should be just fine. This was not the case. Learning experience for sure.
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Post by btex0127 on Dec 31, 2012 13:11:10 GMT -6
As a HC we ran both the offense and defense I wanted. I then hired in guys who ran what I wanted, but with their styles. I wanted styles that I knew and was comfortable with. I told guys before they interviewed what I wanted to run. In the end I found 2 guys who did great. I had no issue with the tweeks they wanted, once we discussed and knew why.
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Post by davishfc on Dec 31, 2012 13:32:26 GMT -6
As a HC we ran both the offense and defense I wanted. I then hired in guys who ran what I wanted, but with their styles. I wanted styles that I knew and was comfortable with. I told guys before they interviewed what I wanted to run. In the end I found 2 guys who did great. I had no issue with the tweeks they wanted, once we discussed and knew why. Of course, hiring one qualified let alone two qualified coordinators is a luxury I would say most high school head coaches seldom have. Certainly if a coach did have that ability, then the result would be more suitable for the entire program.
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Post by btex0127 on Dec 31, 2012 13:39:15 GMT -6
I think we are very lucky in Texas. Many qualified coaches, and it helps to have connections.
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Post by optionguy on Dec 31, 2012 13:59:59 GMT -6
As a HC we ran both the offense and defense I wanted. I then hired in guys who ran what I wanted, but with their styles. I wanted styles that I knew and was comfortable with. I told guys before they interviewed what I wanted to run. In the end I found 2 guys who did great. I had no issue with the tweeks they wanted, once we discussed and knew why. This is the approach that I used as a HC. It made for effective communication and teaching throughout all parts of the program.
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Post by davishfc on Dec 31, 2012 14:08:07 GMT -6
I think we are very lucky in Texas. Many qualified coaches, and it helps to have connections. Texas is just another level. That's clear to me all of the time.
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Post by fantom on Jan 1, 2013 11:26:50 GMT -6
That's what I found most interesting about this. Beilema is a defensive guy, I found it odd that if he's (allegedly) micromanaging his OC. Why wouldn't he since he is getting paid multi-millions to win football games? It's his TEAM not just his defense. [/quote] Because at that level the OC is pretty much the HC of the offense. DC of the defense and the HC over sees everything. If the HC doesn't like what the OC runs then Why hire him? Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using proboards [/quote] We all know that HS HC's don't always get complete control over their staffs. It seems that that's also true at the higher levels. In the NFL owners and GM's have a lot to say about hiring assistants . Remember when the Redskins hired an OC before hiring a HC? In college big-money boosters get assistants hired and fired. So, why would a HC hire an OC if he wasn't 100% on board with his system? Maybe it wasn't his decision.
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Post by davishfc on Jan 1, 2013 11:56:20 GMT -6
So, why would a HC hire an OC if he wasn't 100% on board with his system? Maybe it wasn't his decision. Unfortunately, this is very possible.
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Post by airraider on Jan 1, 2013 13:21:07 GMT -6
I can't really remember.. but there were several who said the coordinator should have complete control... Several HCs? I'm sure there were several responses. Of course the coordinators would say they should have complete control. Any position coach who chimed in wants to believe when he gets an opportunity as a coordinator he'll have complete control. So I'm just saying, the inquiry into this may have been a bit skewed. This is not something I think could be talked about by anybody besides head coaches. It's one of those things that ANYBODY could say they'd do a certain way, but until you're in that position as a head coach deciding "do I allow complete control of the O, D, or ST?" or "will I be involved slightly or heavily involved in the decision making for those units?" No, just several posters in general.. not sure if any where HC's or not.
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Post by davishfc on Jan 1, 2013 15:21:15 GMT -6
Several HCs? I'm sure there were several responses. Of course the coordinators would say they should have complete control. Any position coach who chimed in wants to believe when he gets an opportunity as a coordinator he'll have complete control. So I'm just saying, the inquiry into this may have been a bit skewed. This is not something I think could be talked about by anybody besides head coaches. It's one of those things that ANYBODY could say they'd do a certain way, but until you're in that position as a head coach deciding "do I allow complete control of the O, D, or ST?" or "will I be involved slightly or heavily involved in the decision making for those units?" No, just several posters in general.. not sure if any where HC's or not. Got it.
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Post by btex0127 on Jan 1, 2013 15:52:23 GMT -6
I will jump out on a limb and say he hired him, just did not know him well. Then saw issues
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Post by lionhart on Jan 1, 2013 16:45:31 GMT -6
Been OC with my head coach for 7 years.. we have had some major brawls. (including once he threatened to stab me on the sideline.. every game thereafter i was obviously in the booth - and another instance where we had to be separated at a 7 on 7 tournament) Bottom line, afterwards we apologize and move on. we both have fiery personalities, and eruptions are bound to occur. although i regret the instances on the sidelines... what happens in the meeting rooms is fair game. like davishfc says, my HC is often doing a big picture approach where I sometimes get tunnel vision about the O. He knows that my knowledge of offense is way beyond his, and he gives me alot of freedom. and when he does give input, i always do my best to take his suggestions and fit them into our scheme... even if it takes a little tinkering. the reason i do it is because hes the boss, period. we respect each other and both work our tails off, but at the end of the day its his program. i have respect for the position of HC and the man who holds the title. so even if hes 100% wrong, i'll let him know.. but ultimately defer to him.
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Post by davishfc on Jan 1, 2013 18:01:20 GMT -6
Been OC with my head coach for 7 years.. we have had some major brawls. (including once he threatened to stab me on the sideline.. every game thereafter i was obviously in the booth WTF? And good choice Coach he gives me alot of freedom. and when he does give input, i always do my best to take his suggestions and fit them into our scheme... even if it takes a little tinkering. the reason i do it is because hes the boss That's how it's supposed to be.
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Post by coachcb on Jan 3, 2013 9:28:40 GMT -6
1. There's a fine balance between giving ownership to your staff and still maintain control over the team. This is especially true with coordinators; you hired them for a reason and you need to let them do their jobs.
2. However, you need to make sure that your coordinators understand two things. Firstly, whatever system you are running needs to be simple, sound and understood (or easily taught) by the staff inside and out. They need to know that any offensive problems will be shored up by coaching up fundamentals and not tossing out more plays.
3. EVERYONE on the staff needs to know the HC has total veto power over everything. Ultimately, what is implemented on game night has the HC's stamp of approval, period. As a former HC, I will let always explain why we are or aren't doing something and I'll have a good reason.
4. Having 'heated discussions' is kosher as long as it's behind closed doors. Any coach yelps at me in front of the kids and we're going to have an issue. I had an HC read me the riot act about our OL's pad level in front of the entire team once and I excused myself from practice for the rest of the day. I wasn't going to lower myself to a screaming match with a grown man in front of 30+ 15-16 year old kids.
5. The staff had better have a thick skin because a good HC will always tell you the truth (again, away from the kids) and you may not like it.
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Post by fantom on Jan 3, 2013 10:19:57 GMT -6
1. I had an HC read me the riot act about our OL's pad level in front of the entire team once and I excused myself from practice for the rest of the day. How would you react if a player did that? What if you yelled at a kid at practice and he "excused himself"?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2013 11:03:17 GMT -6
HC = the boss.
To quote the Captain from "Bad Boys". . . . "You don't like your job, quit"
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Post by davishfc on Jan 3, 2013 11:45:04 GMT -6
How would you react if a player did that? What if you yelled at a kid at practice and he "excused himself"? I'll answer a question with a question. What would you do if an HC said this to you in front of an entire team? "You're a fat phukin' sorry-a$$ excuse of a phukin coach who can't even get his OL to phukin' block right. Even after given a half a phukin' hour of INDY time every day, you still can't get these phukin'' kids to bring the pads down!!" Well the way this was addressed was absolutely unprofessional and that individual should not be allowed the opportunity to continue as a head coach. That being said, though the head coach handled it completely incorrectly, I'll answer this with a REAL TOUGH question... was there any truth to what he said?As a head coach, I always want to know that my assistants are holding themselves accountable to the performance of the group they're responsible for before I have to. I absolutely would've handled it differently. We would have had a behind closed doors conversation. But if there was any truth to what he said, it would've changed and we would've moved forward.
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Post by btex0127 on Jan 3, 2013 11:57:30 GMT -6
You correct coaches behind closed doors, otherwise you undermine their authority.
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Post by davishfc on Jan 3, 2013 12:49:42 GMT -6
There was absolutely truth in what he said Acknowledgement. Sign of an assistant coach who is not oblivious, or trying to ignore poor performance, or avoid being held accountable. Good for you. You did it right Coach. He and I had addressed it repeatedly throughout the season and I finally brought the varsity OL coach in to ask him what I could be doing differently. He said we needed to get them into the weight room twice a week and that set the freshman/sophomore HC off because it took away from practice time. Oh well. I truly believe there is a minimum level of strength to be present in order for many techniques to be performed adequately. If they didn't have it, they didn't have it. They have to get it some time. What he said didn't bother me that much. What p-ssed me off was that it happened in front of all the kids during a team session. I completely agree Coach. He undermined you in front of the entire team. Inexcusable for the head coach. So this wasn't the varsity head coach that did this? It was a freshman or JV head coach that did it? If so, I'm not surprised. Not to say this is not possible from the varsity head coach but I do believe it would be more likely from a lower level head coach who was just delegated the responsibility and doesn't quite understand how to properly fulfill the role.
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Post by coachcb on Jan 3, 2013 13:01:50 GMT -6
There was absolutely truth in what he said Acknowledgement. Sign of an assistant coach who is not oblivious, or trying to ignore poor performance, or avoid being held accountable. Good for you. You did it right Coach. Oh well. I truly believe there is a minimum level of strength to be present in order for many techniques to be performed adequately. If they didn't have it, they didn't have it. They have to get it some time. What he said didn't bother me that much. What p-ssed me off was that it happened in front of all the kids during a team session. I completely agree Coach. He undermined you in front of the entire team. Inexcusable for the head coach. So this wasn't the varsity head coach that did this? It was a freshman or JV head coach that did it? If so, I'm not surprised. Not to say this is not possible from the varsity head coach but I do believe it would be more likely from a lower level head coach who was just delegated the responsibility and doesn't quite understand how to properly fulfill the role. Yes, he was a lower level HC who I had actually coached with for quite a few years. The situation really had been boiling for a few weeks. Our 'discussions' pertaining to the issue had become more and more heated as I was tired of hearing about it. I had addressed the problem in every way I knew possible. Here's the kicker; we were 9-0 the day of the blowout.
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Post by davishfc on Jan 3, 2013 13:24:36 GMT -6
Yes, he was a lower level HC who I had actually coached with for quite a few years. Really? Wow?! And that level of trust, even after years of working together, that you were doing everything you could to get it changed didn't exist. Huh? So much for the "continuity" argument I guess. I mean you still won but at what cost as a staff member...humiliation. The situation really had been boiling for a few weeks. Our 'discussions' pertaining to the issue had become more and more heated as I was tired of hearing about it. I had addressed the problem in every way I knew possible. I understand. These types of boiling points just don't happen after one "discussion." There is certainly some build up. Kind of like Mt. St. Helens and then somebody blows their top. Here's the kicker; we were 9-0 the day of the blowout. You've got me there. That's amazing. Seems like an argument that was probably better left unsaid being at the lower levels and during an undefeated season. Maybe not? But just my hunch off of the information I have available.
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Post by fantom on Jan 3, 2013 13:30:49 GMT -6
How would you react if a player did that? What if you yelled at a kid at practice and he "excused himself"? I'll answer a question with a question. What would you do if an HC said this to you in front of an entire team? "You're a fat phukin' sorry-a$$ excuse of a phukin coach who can't even get his OL to phukin' block right. Even after given a half a phukin' hour of INDY time every day, you still can't get these phukin'' kids to bring the pads down!!" Bear in mind, this little rant came from the same guy who made a second string QB strip down to his underwear and do up-downs in a puddle of mood. I wouldn't blame a kid one bit if he left after a public tirade like this. I wouldn't either. That's way beyond being "read the riot act".
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