juice10
Sophomore Member
Posts: 200
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Post by juice10 on Oct 10, 2006 7:01:45 GMT -6
We just had a JV game monday night and they won, which is great! However, after talking with some kids, it seems as though my JV staff implemented a new formation that is completely different than what the varsity is running. Varsity runs a form of the spread, and the JV implemented an "I" formation. They implemented the "I" formation because they were having trouble with the new blocking scheme, and it was difficult for them to understand. We have worked very hard with this and to just change it without my approval or even knowlegde p@##@# me off.
My question to you, am I over-reacting here, because I am very upset. I feel that all the work that I have done over the last year and a half is for nothing.
Do I have a right to be upset??? Suggestions???
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Post by tog on Oct 10, 2006 7:05:44 GMT -6
if you specifically told them not to do so and they did anyway, then yes, you should be ticked off
if you didn't actually tell them not to do so, then it is your fault
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Post by brophy on Oct 10, 2006 7:20:32 GMT -6
how did the "alteration" help the kids in assimiliating the program's offense?
That would be the whole point of a JV game, IMO. If it doesn't help transition towards Varsity experience, what is it being run for?
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Post by coach239 on Oct 10, 2006 7:23:29 GMT -6
I agree with TOG. If you have not made the expectations perfectly clear then dont blame your uninformed Coaches.
I suggest that you reiterate what you expect from them as "assistant" Coache(s). This could be just a simple misunderstanding. Even if you already explained EVERYTHING to them I would not go off on the deep end. Remember, Coaches are sometimes hard to come by. (especially good ones)
Explain to them why it is important to have ONE system within the program. Im sure they will understand if the message is clear.
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juice10
Sophomore Member
Posts: 200
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Post by juice10 on Oct 10, 2006 7:31:55 GMT -6
When we sat down after last season, we went over who is returning and what is the best route for us to take. We decided right then and there that we were going to focus on the future and try to stick with one style of offense and making it work. I understand that at a small school, you may have to adapt things from year to year, but we were going to utilize the spread for years to come. What I don't understand is, all were there, and all agreed to do this.
Tog, I saw that they were running this in a practice late last week, and asked the coaches to stick with what we have taught them and to not run this in the JV game.
Coach239,
I couldn't agree more with the coaching. We only have 3 coaches for 45 kids JV/V, so I need to handle this delicately.
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Post by coach239 on Oct 10, 2006 7:41:36 GMT -6
When we sat down after last season, we went over who is returning and what is the best route for us to take. We decided right then and there that we were going to focus on the future and try to stick with one style of offense and making it work. I understand that at a small school, you may have to adapt things from year to year, but we were going to utilize the spread for years to come. What I don't understand is, all were there, and all agreed to do this. Tog, I saw that they were running this in a practice late last week, and asked the coaches to stick with what we have taught them and to not run this in the JV game. Coach239, I couldn't agree more with the coaching. We only have 3 coaches for 45 kids JV/V, so I need to handle this delicately. It does need to be handled delicately, but it seems to me like you have made it clear more than once. Maybe it IS time for a one on one, man to man talk with the men or man who is involved. The first thing I would do is get him or them alone and say, "I understand your desire to win, but it is important for these players to run the scheme that the varsity level is using. If the players see that the Coaches dont believe in the system, how do you expect them to?" Thats delicate yet straight to the point.
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Post by brophy on Oct 10, 2006 7:45:59 GMT -6
ask them what they were hoping to gain by going to the "I" - were the same fundamentals of your offense being used / taught, or was it completely bastidized?
I know some coaches, out of convenience, laziness, or just sheer spite, will run "their stuff" any chance they can get, rather than trying to get better and get on the same page as everyone else. It is a sign of trying to be autonomous, this could be that the JV coaches don't feel a part of the program and are trying to do "their thing" out of ego or to prove their football smarts (thinking their way is better). Some spread teams DO go to I formation in short-yardage situations....which is why I ask....did this help teach the program's offense?
You may be a zone defense....and a coach who only knows what he knows, will turn around and run completely man coverage, because that is his background....that is his comfort zone.
I'd just ask these guys what they were hoping to accomplish and the rationale behind it. If you get any answer that doesn't go back to HELPING THE KIDS PREPARE FOR VARSITY, they were wrong. AND, it takes the focus off a you-versus-me[/b] confrontation....it is about the KIDS. period.
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juice10
Sophomore Member
Posts: 200
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Post by juice10 on Oct 10, 2006 8:06:06 GMT -6
Thanks for all the quick responses.
Brophy,
There apparently wasn't much of the same things being taught so essentially, it wasn't helping our JV kids prepare for Varsity. The varsity has never attempted to run the "I" formation all year and don't plan to.
I guess the part that upsets me the most is that they never asked me.
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Post by tog on Oct 10, 2006 8:14:14 GMT -6
When we sat down after last season, we went over who is returning and what is the best route for us to take. We decided right then and there that we were going to focus on the future and try to stick with one style of offense and making it work. I understand that at a small school, you may have to adapt things from year to year, but we were going to utilize the spread for years to come. What I don't understand is, all were there, and all agreed to do this. Tog, I saw that they were running this in a practice late last week, and asked the coaches to stick with what we have taught them and to not run this in the JV game. Coach239, I couldn't agree more with the coaching. We only have 3 coaches for 45 kids JV/V, so I need to handle this delicately. tough spot i would not let them undermine my authority again
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Post by los on Oct 10, 2006 8:18:59 GMT -6
Hows the varsity team doing with the spread offense coach? Are you winning some games? Are the coaches and players understanding the system? los
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Post by PSS on Oct 10, 2006 8:43:46 GMT -6
It's funny that you bring this up. I had a freshman coach that basically did the same thing but on defense. I told him not to run his "own" defense and to to teach the freshmen our base defense and coverages. I told him to run our defense in their games. When this didn't occur I called him in and met with him and our HC. He said he didn't think that our defense was sound (we run a 425). Needless to say he lasted only 2 games. We are short a freshmen coach the rest of the year but at least they are being taught the correct defense now.
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Post by brophy on Oct 10, 2006 9:13:07 GMT -6
good one, wolves.....guess no matter where you go, the song remains the same (had the same happen to us....I think EVERY year). Funny thing is, when we bring those kids up to play Varsity or Freshmen to play JV/Sophs, those "coaches" still don't know why those kids have such a hard time adjusting (to a completely DIFFERENT terminology / scheme). I recall a situation last year, where our returning Head Sophomore Coach (a retired Army Ranger....real nice guy, BUT), began running a 5-3 with the FS over the TE (leaving the WILB covering the hook-curl-flat on the weak side) from our 42 base. He called it "2 Robber", which used terms from the playbook, but wasn't anything remotely close to what the playbook depicted. Unfortunately, I, as the defensive coordinator, had to get involved (instead of the HC) and ask him what he was doing because he was 1) putting guys out of position and 2) teaching something that wasn't in the program's playbook with confusing terminology. When I asked him how this is helping the kids and how this helps in teaching the playbook, he said, " well, to be honest with you, I haven't read the playbook...."We ended up by the 6th game of the season NEEDING a DT and DE from his squad (could have used his ILB or FS), but because these guys had no clue how to even line up, let alone how to execute stunts......they were severely retarded in their production. Rather than using the playbook, he would yelll "LINEBACKER BLITZ!" from the sideline and all the linebackers would blitz into any gap they could find. That was their total defensive package last year.
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juice10
Sophomore Member
Posts: 200
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Post by juice10 on Oct 10, 2006 10:42:24 GMT -6
That's a great point, and I don't think they realize that. Thanks again for all of the great information, I'll try to keep you posted.
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Post by brophy on Oct 10, 2006 10:48:13 GMT -6
I think you should kick these guys in the nuts and be done with it.
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Post by wingt74 on Oct 10, 2006 12:10:49 GMT -6
To me, every team should have some form of spread, power, misdirection, etc.
Your JV coach wants to be a coach, let him coach. There has to be a happy medium.
Use your cadence, your blocking scheme, your hole numbering system, your terminology, etc...and he's fine.
So he put in a different formation. Big deal...I would never tell my younger head coaches they can't do that...if I did, I would start running out of coaches.
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Post by mitch on Oct 10, 2006 12:51:39 GMT -6
On this forum I have read many times how the JV/Freshemen MUST run the same schemes, plays, stunts, etc. as the varsity O and D. If they don't, the players don't understand the terminology, etc. My question is, how hard is it to teach a kid what Weak X, Iso, Belly, Robber, etc., etc., etc. means? It should take about 30 seconds to teach a kid what to do on a particular stunt, block, or whatever. I think the focus in the JV/JH should be on the fundamentals, especially on how to block and tackle. So what if the JV coach runs 28 Sweep out of the I formation and your going to run 48 stretch out of Oneback, doesn't the Tight End try to reach the 9 playside? If your lower level coaches have taught the fundamentals (such as a reach block) you should treat them like gold. Who cares about terminology, system, blah, blah, blah.
Teach how to block, tackle, play physical, and play like wildmen on game night.
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Post by brophy on Oct 10, 2006 12:58:56 GMT -6
I hear what you're saying mitch and wingt
I don't think I have the 'right' answer, just what I've seen. Now, I don't believe running completely different schemes hurt players - but the players WE GET we have to start fundamentals from the 9th grade level (because we didn't have the greatest feeder programs - our fault).
If I teach a guy some Spanish.........he'll become more fluent in Spanish if I use common phrases and mannerisms in Spanish. If I switch between Spanish and Portugese and Latin, while they are pretty much the same animal, they are distinctly different and CAN BE CONFUSING TO A NOVICE. That is where the scheme comes in.....if I teach a certain set of rules that go with a particular scheme, does it help or hurt the player's development if I change those rules up just to run something for a game or two that has no bearing on W/L record?
when I was in college, I started out as a NG in a 3-4 and we were all about posting and reading. I later transfered to a penetrating (attacking) 42 (as a Nose and DE). All I had known was getting a quick getoff and posting my blocker...I was horrible at first in the 42, because it was all greek to me, philosophically. Once I figured out what the coaches wanted with stunting into gaps and pressuring the backfield, I was able to apply my "skills". But having never known the latter style of play (different scheme), I had no exprience to reference. These kids are the same way - they have no legitimate football experiences - they do not have the 20+ years of football background that us coaches have. Keep it consistent, let the kids find a rhythm. Playing the rogue coach, IMO, shows disrespect to not only the HC, but the entire program....because you, as the coach, put yourself ABOVE the program, and the kids.
Players can't play like wildmen when they are confused or unsure of how they are supposed to execute. When you can't overcome the terminology / communication barrier (or you impede it's progress) you hinder the ability of that player to contribute efficiently.
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Post by wingt74 on Oct 10, 2006 13:57:17 GMT -6
Ditka had a great saying....something like, "This ain't rocket science".
Run, Block, Tackle is whats most important.
If I was given a playbook, a list of plays, and told run this, and thats it...I would find another program to coach for.
Our youth program runs the base formations/plays, uses the same terminology/cadence/blocking scheme. From there, I have the freedom to do anything.
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Post by brophy on Oct 10, 2006 14:17:41 GMT -6
I hear ya, wingt..........but if you ran double wing at the varsity level, would you think it helps the kids in the JV program to run air raid?
like I said - I don't have the answers....nor do I think there is one hard and fast rule - you're right, this game IS simple and is basic. Maybe this is about principle more than anything, I dunno.
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Post by wildcat on Oct 10, 2006 17:30:51 GMT -6
Does it complicate things when the JV program is successful and the varsity program is not? Let's say that the varsity is running the spread and is 0-5 but the JV is running Power I and is 5-0?
How does a head coach handle that scenario?
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Post by PSS on Oct 10, 2006 17:45:18 GMT -6
Here's my two cents. If you are hired by the head coach to coach a team and told to teach and coach a spread offense or 42 defense and not to deviate from it, then that is what you were hired to do. Be loyal to the person that hired you and do as he says, if you don't want to it's very simple. Find another job or you will probably be looking for one anyway.
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Post by phantom on Oct 10, 2006 19:23:32 GMT -6
I don't see where it's complicated. The HC oversees the program. The assistants,including JV coaches, are there to assist. That means doing what the HC wants. He's the boss. He has final say. End of story.
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Post by wildcat on Oct 10, 2006 19:49:39 GMT -6
I don't see where it's complicated. The HC oversees the program. The assistants,including JV coaches, are there to assist. That means doing what the HC wants. He's the boss. He has final say. End of story. Well...it's obviously complicated! That's why the post started in the first place! Someone asked this coach about the level of success of the varsity and the junior varsity. Seeing that the JV coaches have been running a different scheme it DEFINATELY complicates matters if the JV has been more successful than the varsity. Doesn't justify what the JV coaches are doing, of course, but it would make it very difficult for the HC to force change on the JV now if the JV was more successful than the varsity. And chances are, if the JV coaches have already stepped on the HC's toes by deviating from program philosophy, they are also disrespecting the varsity coaches in other ways, as well.
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Post by brophy on Oct 10, 2006 20:05:23 GMT -6
if you you go blow a team out 80-0 at the JV level and completely ran "your" stuff, what does it prove? What if your opponent is fielding freshmen and Sophomores on that JV squad just for them to get reps and playing experience?
If I run a 3-3 defense, but run cover 0 and blitz all my linebackers all game....what does it matter? Did the kids really learn anything? Were they put in a position to LEARN how to play their position...or was it a fluke, just so I could say I am a "great coach"? Did I sell out a learning opportunity for the sake of just a "W"?
Maybe "JV" means something other than what I'm thinking it means. JV, to me, is more like a competitive scrimmage. Do JV W/L records translate to Varsity success?
JV games, for us, were "game nights" for the Varsity players who probably wouldn't see time, who were retarded in their development, Sophomores that just might be able to contribute on the Varsity level (but we're not sure), and sometimes Freshmen who show tremendous promise. JV games have been tremendously beneficial to our program. LOTS of hands-on experience for our players. One thing I don't remember, though, is the scores. Do you keep score / records of your practices? Does it matter if your 1st O smokes your 2nd D in 2 min drill or skelly?
I'm jes askin' - I'm not Rush Propst, I don't have dem answers. (lol)
[glow=red,2,300]juice10[/glow]
maybe you ought to go over your expectations and philosophy of JV games again with your staff. What WE, as a staff, hope to accomplish from JV games. One thing we found that helped, was that the entire program supported the JV games.....the Varsity coaches, the Soph coaches, the Fresh coaches....ALL participated in organizing the JV games.....the Varsity DC served the Sophomore DL coach (or whoever) who was the DC for the JV game. That way this isn't an isolated, "we-forgot-about-you-you're-on-your-own" evening for those JV guys.
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Post by PSS on Oct 10, 2006 20:14:13 GMT -6
Good question Brophy. IMO, sub-varsity here in Texas is for developing the younger kids. Teach them our base defense, offense, special teams and overall team philosophy. We don't have the liberty of suiting up kids for both the varsity and jv games like some do in other states like I know they do in OK. When they finish their season and go into the Spring I want them to have a base knowledge of the organization. Some if not several of those kids will have to step up the next year to play on the varsity. I don't want them to have to waste a year running something different on the sub-varsity level. It is that way with our system in the 7th grade up, granted it is a work in progress.
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Post by wildcat on Oct 10, 2006 20:23:12 GMT -6
Hey, Brophy...I'n not disagreeing with you...thing is, I have been in that situation before...have worked with lower level coaches who were more interested in winning a frosh-soph conference championship than they were in getting their players ready for the next level (I'm not a head coach, but have worked with some guys who weren't team players).
Seen things like:
- JV coaches running completely different schemes on offense and defense
- JV coaches using different terminology
- JV coaches not cooperating by giving up scout team players
-JV coaches not playing as many kids as possible. I have seen JV coaches with 45 players on their squad play as many as 9 kids both ways.
- JV coaches talking badly about the varsity program in front of kids
Once that door has been nudged open, it is VERY hard to get it closed. That's why it is CRUCIAL for the head coach to explicitly spell out what his expectations are for JV football.
For some guys, it is a control thing. They want to be the head coach, but they aren't, so they use JV football to try and show up the head coach.
Unfortunately, here in Illinois, you seldom get to choose your assistants. The school usually hires the coaches. So, if you are stuck with a prick, you just have to find a way to deal with it.
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Post by brophy on Oct 10, 2006 20:33:30 GMT -6
Hey, Brophy...I'n not disagreeing with you...thing is, I have been in that situation before...have worked with lower level coaches who were more interested in winning a frosh-soph conference championship than they were in getting their players ready for the next level (I'm not a head coach, but have worked with some guys who weren't team players). you sure we haven't coached with each other before?! I could've sworn I was the only one who coached at THAT school on this board..... Look at the NFL......what do they do in preseason (besides bilk season ticket holders)? They play vanilla stuff and see if those undrafted free agents can actually pick up their system and how they play......anyone can look like a phenom if all you do is run unconventional stuff....question is, how will that guy play in a 'controlled environment'?
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Post by wildcat on Oct 10, 2006 20:56:06 GMT -6
There is nothing wrong with winning on the lower levels...show me a freshman or JV program that goes 2-7 every year and I will show you a varsity program that doesn't have a lot of kids out! With that being said, the desire to win MUST be tempered with the desire to get those kids ready to play varsity football and, more importantlt, to keep them on the team and not in the stands on Friday night. Worked with a guy once who bragged ENDLESSLY about his two consecutive undefeated seasons as a frosh-soph coach...used to ridicule the varsity program because we did "too much" on offense and were "too complicated". This guy used to actually say, "the only plays you need are toss sweep, inside trap, and a play action pass." The two teams this guy had, by the way, featured two D-I athletes and 8 other kids who went on to play D-III ball. According to this egomaniac who was a legend-in-his-own mind in the making, those wins had EVERYTHING to do with running toss sweep, inside trap, and play action, and NOTHING to do with the stud athletes he had. Riiiiiiiiight! It is relatively easy to be successful at lower level football, mainly because most of the teams we play don't do any scouting or tape exchange. If you do some scouting or get some tape on people and have some studs, you are going to win a ton of games. at the lower level.
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Post by saintrad on Oct 10, 2006 22:38:39 GMT -6
had a different experience this year running the 8th grade after being replaced on the varsity staff. Having 15 yrs experience I understand the value of having a vertically aligned program and have done as much as I can to try an run what the Varsity is running. Unfortunately with all the losses (to grades and injury) we aren't really set up to run his system. I have gone to the Varsity staff on numerous occassions to get their help to only have them walk away from me. Ended up turning to a system I know well and fits the kids I have, but still try to use as much of their terminology as I can. As to their way of teaching football I can't do that since I have not had any directives from upper higher, let alone a playbook.
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Post by chorizo on Oct 10, 2006 23:17:13 GMT -6
If you tell them to run your system and support it with playbooks, tape and lots of meetings, they must run your system. I have coached at the frosh level, was told to run the varsity system and it was like pulling teeth to get a playbook, meetings etc. I probably should have been more pushy about getting the info. After several requests I kinda felt dissed and started to research the defense on my own. As it turns out nothing was on paper! The varsity has led the league in defense three years in a row and has no playbook! Its an eight man front, mine looks the same but Im sure the nomenclature is a bit differrent. I will encourage, no insist next year a playbook is developed for all levels. Thanks to you guys I learned a lot and will be able to help get it done.
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