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Post by Coach Bennett on Dec 21, 2012 11:02:34 GMT -6
Do any of you have a deliberately practiced false start play to keep the game clock rolling with a fresh 25 second play clock at the end of a half or game?
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Post by mariner42 on Dec 21, 2012 11:21:21 GMT -6
If you do it, you better f***ing practice it like a play. The coaching staff tried to do this in the first round of the playoffs my senior year. Didn't go well.
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Post by Chris Clement on Dec 21, 2012 11:24:09 GMT -6
How can you screw that up? I've seen kids screw up a freeze play, but this should be as simple as calling it on two and telling the LG it's on 1.
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Post by mariner42 on Dec 21, 2012 11:42:36 GMT -6
How can you screw that up? I've seen kids screw up a freeze play, but this should be as simple as calling it on two and telling the LG it's on 1. You practice taking a knee, right? It's a 90s chunk of time during Thursday walk through to make sure they understand what's going on and there's no confusion. If you're gonna do it, just practice it. |
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Post by larrymoe on Dec 21, 2012 13:52:19 GMT -6
You practice taking a knee, right? I have never, ever, practiced taking a knee either as a player or coach for a combined 20 years. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 21, 2012 14:01:03 GMT -6
You practice taking a knee, right? I have never, ever, practiced taking a knee either as a player or coach for a combined 20 years. Really? whatever works I guess...but that doesn't seem prudent |
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Post by airraider on Dec 21, 2012 16:52:51 GMT -6
I sure do get tired of Johnny boy and his soap box... wish it would finally get slippery enough for him to fall off.
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Post by Chris Clement on Dec 21, 2012 17:01:40 GMT -6
So if your CB gets beat deep, do you just bite the bullet and give up 6 or do you want him to tackle the receiver and take the DPI?
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Post by morris on Dec 21, 2012 20:31:06 GMT -6
I see the DPI the same as a foul in basketball. It's just part of the game. The other I see as underhanded but I have no idea why or where that line is for me. I get it and I think it is a tactic that teams will use. I can see times when I should use it. My question is where the line is between gamesmanship and something else?
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Post by John Knight on Dec 21, 2012 23:31:52 GMT -6
As for the OP if the officials do their job, the offense should not be able to pull this crap anyways,
3.4.6 SITUATION D: With no time-outs remaining and fourth down with 40 seconds to go in the third period, K is preparing to punt into a strong wind. With 20
seconds remaining, K1 commits a false start. RULING: Penalize K 5 yards and
start the clock with the snap. Under normal circumstances, the clock would start
with the ready-for-play signal, but this would permit the period to end and K could
then punt with the wind. K will not be permitted to gain this advantage by
committing a foul to consume time.
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Post by Chris Clement on Dec 21, 2012 23:52:17 GMT -6
You might get away with it once, I think if you did it twice you'd probably get nailed for 5+15.
Do you encourage your tackles to hold a DE when beat rather than getting your prize-winning QB killed?
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Post by John Knight on Dec 22, 2012 6:47:32 GMT -6
Again, that is not coaching a circumvention to gain an advantage, that is part of football. I know there are gray areas, but flat coaching a rule infraction in hopes of getting some favorable officiating and gaining an advantage is BS in my opinion. If you coach your kids to hold, knowing it won't be called, that is not what I call good ethics.
Teaching kids how to hold within the rules, football.
...
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Post by larrymoe on Dec 22, 2012 10:33:57 GMT -6
Really? whatever works I guess...but that doesn't seem prudent What is there to practice? You tell your play runner- Blue Right (formation) Take a Knee. You snap the ball like normal and your QB kneels down. In our state, unless you're only up by a couple points, if you say you're taking a knee to run the clock, the officials usually tell your opponents to lay off. Why waste time with something that really isn't that freakin hard to figure out? |
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Post by mariner42 on Dec 22, 2012 11:24:22 GMT -6
Really? whatever works I guess...but that doesn't seem prudent What is there to practice? You tell your play runner- Blue Right (formation) Take a Knee. You snap the ball like normal and your QB kneels down. In our state, unless you're only up by a couple points, if you say you're taking a knee to run the clock, the officials usually tell your opponents to lay off. Why waste time with something that really isn't that freakin hard to figure out? Feel free to use your time as you wish, but to me it's worth a minute or two on Thursday to practice kneeling the ball. I also believe you should practice taking safeties from a regular offensive group and snapping the ball over the uprights with the punt team at some point during the season because I don't want to enter into a game situation where I didn't prepare our guys for that situation. If I were ever going to try an intentional false start, I would make sure it was practiced. My senior season and our playoff run ended because it wasn't. I won't do that to my guys if I can at all help it. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 22, 2012 11:41:24 GMT -6
In our state, unless you're only up by a couple points, if you say you're taking a knee to run the clock, the officials usually tell your opponents to lay off. Why waste time with something that really isn't that freakin hard to figure out? I don't believe you should kneel the ball UNLESS you are only up a couple of points and taking the knee is the best way to insure you win the game. If I am up three scores with a minute left, I am letting the kids play. |
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Post by coachbw on Dec 22, 2012 12:19:04 GMT -6
I see the DPI the same as a foul in basketball. It's just part of the game. The other I see as underhanded but I have no idea why or where that line is for me. I agree with this. I can't see ever doing it myself, however if I was going to I think I would just have it between me and the center and tell him it was on 2 and let everyone else go one 1. |
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Post by larrymoe on Dec 22, 2012 12:34:45 GMT -6
In our state, unless you're only up by a couple points, if you say you're taking a knee to run the clock, the officials usually tell your opponents to lay off. Why waste time with something that really isn't that freakin hard to figure out? I don't believe you should kneel the ball UNLESS you are only up a couple of points and taking the knee is the best way to insure you win the game. If I am up three scores with a minute left, I am letting the kids play. So, you're up 18 points with 35 secs left and the back judge is counting- You're running a play? |
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Post by larrymoe on Dec 22, 2012 12:37:48 GMT -6
Feel free to use your time as you wish, but to me it's worth a minute or two on Thursday to practice kneeling the ball. I also believe you should practice taking safeties from a regular offensive group and snapping the ball over the uprights with the punt team at some point during the season because I don't want to enter into a game situation where I didn't prepare our guys for that situation. If I were ever going to try an intentional false start, I would make sure it was practiced. My senior season and our playoff run ended because it wasn't. I won't do that to my guys if I can at all help it. I just don't understand what there is to practice. Does you're QB need to be properly instructed how to bend his knee and touch the ground? He shouldn't need practice taking a snap, you do that a few thousand times a year. Do you prepare for every possible situation ever? I literally, in 20 years again, have never been in a game situation on any level where I've ever needed to take an intentional safety, let alone snap one through the goal posts. In fact, I've never heard of anyone doing that. How long are your practices? |
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Post by mariner42 on Dec 22, 2012 13:05:45 GMT -6
I just don't understand what there is to practice. Does you're QB need to be properly instructed how to bend his knee and touch the ground? He shouldn't need practice taking a snap, you do that a few thousand times a year. Do you prepare for every possible situation ever? I literally, in 20 years again, have never been in a game situation on any level where I've ever needed to take an intentional safety, let alone snap one through the goal posts. In fact, I've never heard of anyone doing that. How long are your practices? QB Wedge is a simple play, people practice that. If nothing else, the mechanical reps of doing it twice a week on Thursdays are worthwhile in my opinion. I've never needed to take an intentional safety, either, I'm hoping I'm never in a game where it's necessary. But if it comes up, I'll feel comfortable calling for it because I know we know what to do. I dunno about other folks, but for the teams I've been a part of Thursdays were mostly special teams, reps on air, and situational stuff like kneeling on the ball, spiking the ball, sprinting a FG unit onto the field from the sideline. Agree to disagree. |
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Post by Coach Huey on Dec 22, 2012 13:22:33 GMT -6
Feel free to use your time as you wish, but to me it's worth a minute or two on Thursday to practice kneeling the ball. I also believe you should practice taking safeties from a regular offensive group and snapping the ball over the uprights with the punt team at some point during the season because I don't want to enter into a game situation where I didn't prepare our guys for that situation. If I were ever going to try an intentional false start, I would make sure it was practiced. My senior season and our playoff run ended because it wasn't. I won't do that to my guys if I can at all help it. I just don't understand what there is to practice. Does you're QB need to be properly instructed how to bend his knee and touch the ground? He shouldn't need practice taking a snap, you do that a few thousand times a year. Do you prepare for every possible situation ever? I literally, in 20 years again, have never been in a game situation on any level where I've ever needed to take an intentional safety, let alone snap one through the goal posts. In fact, I've never heard of anyone doing that. How long are your practices? we do it on thursday ... line up in victory, make sure everyone knows what their job would be ... i.e. "you upbacks, if the snap is fumbled, your job is to fall on it so your eyes are alerting for ball on the ground" etc.... "you deep guy, if by chance we fumble it & they get it, run the guy down & tackle him so don't come running up here if there's a scrum".. that takes about a minute the first time. then, we end practice every thursday with 'victory'. not a big deal. if you don't, that is fine. we also practice taking a safety - if you don't, that is fine. we also practice defending a hail mary from midfield. we also practice throwing a hail mary from midfield. if you don't, that is fine. |
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Post by larrymoe on Dec 22, 2012 13:45:46 GMT -6
I'm not trying to disparage what you guys do. Don't get me wrong.
I just like to be as efficient as possible and that means only practicing the stuff I know we'll need. I don't get into what if's. If we lose a game because of it, ok. I'd rather lose one game in 20 years as opposed to wasting a cumulative three hours of practice or whatever trying to get ready for something we may not even use over those two decades.
To each their own.
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Post by Coach Huey on Dec 22, 2012 13:52:54 GMT -6
I'm not trying to disparage what you guys do. Don't get me wrong. I just like to be as efficient as possible and that means only practicing the stuff I know we'll need. I don't get into what if's. If we lose a game because of it, ok. I'd rather lose one game in 20 years as opposed to wasting a cumulative three hours of practice or whatever trying to get ready for something we may not even use over those two decades. To each their own. Just trying to figure out how 1 play - 8 seconds of our life - on a thursday is being inefficient. We spend about 1 minute on the first thursday, then 1 play after that. We also spend time every week recovering onside kicks... maybe 5 minutes total - lining up in a 'hands team' return and kicking a few onsides at our players, then maybe pooching one or kicking one deep. all these scenarios (kicking off after a safety, receiving a kickoff after a safety, etc.) are installed in fall camp - not a great amount of time needed but these 'install periods' are great things to do during a 'break' or some 'down time' to let players rest, recover during a 2-a-day workout. then, during the season you simply roll them in for 30 seconds here, or 1 play there during the week. if we spend 3 hours total - which i don't know if we really spend that much combined - we do it spread out and do it during 'recover' times or 'teach/talk' periods. we do it... honestly, i don't care if you do, if you don't, if my opponent does, if they don't ... however, for someone to imply that we are wasting time or are inefficient, well .... hard to comprehend since you've never attended any of our practices and i've never broken down a minute-by-minute script of our days. chances are, we are just as efficient as the next team. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 22, 2012 13:54:40 GMT -6
I just don't understand what there is to practice. I think Huey summed it up really well. There actually IS more that can be taught than the qb just taking a snap and bending his knee. Do those things need to be "practiced"...your call. An out route is just running forward, then turning---but if a coach desires there is more that can be taught (stemming for leverate, aiming points, body/hand placement, route conversion...) In theory, everyone is just "hitting somebody" in football every play. Does "hitting" need to be practiced? In all my years of coaching/teaching..I have never had a fire in the school... still think practicing a 7 min fire drill once a month is worthwhile  |
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Post by larrymoe on Dec 22, 2012 14:02:04 GMT -6
Yes.
Because taking a knee once or twice in a game once or twice a year is comparable to a fire in a school.
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Post by Coach Huey on Dec 22, 2012 14:07:30 GMT -6
I just like to be as efficient as possible and that means only practicing the stuff I know we'll need. I don't get into what if's. Do you know if you'll need your backup QB throwing the ball deep at the end of the game because you're down 2 scores late in the 4th? Do you practice your backup QB throwing these types of routes? Do you know if you'll need to kick on onside kick? Do you practice it? Do you know if you're going to have your kicker healthy late in the game to do it - or do you have both kickers practice onside kicks with the kickoff team? Do you know that week that your opponent will kick onside to you? Do you practice your hands team? Do you know if all 11 players on the hands team will still be uninjured or do you also work a couple of extra players on the hands team as well? Do you know that your starting center will only be able to play the 1st drive? Do you work your backup center with the 1st offense running the entire game plan? Please explain how you know what you'll need each week... Then, we wouldn't need to practice some fairly basic things for a minute on monday or 2 minutes on tuesday, etc. |
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Post by Mav on Dec 22, 2012 15:17:46 GMT -6
Really? whatever works I guess...but that doesn't seem prudent What is there to practice? You tell your play runner- Blue Right (formation) Take a Knee. You snap the ball like normal and your QB kneels down. In our state, unless you're only up by a couple points, if you say you're taking a knee to run the clock, the officials usually tell your opponents to lay off. Why waste time with something that really isn't that freakin hard to figure out? We have always wrapped up our offensive session on Thursdays with the offense in the Victory formation and taking a knee. I think it's a great way to keep things positive and show our confidence. For us it's probably equal parts mental and physical preparation. |
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Post by jgordon1 on Dec 22, 2012 15:57:53 GMT -6
Exactly..we do it as a fun thing..also to make sure we had the right personell on the field
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Post by coachbw on Dec 22, 2012 17:17:33 GMT -6
We lost a fumbled snap on a take a knee play in my first victory as a head coach. The other team ended up driving down inside the 20 before throwing an interception in the end zone. From that point on it has always been the first play that we install during fall camp. It takes us about 2 minutes and it is a good tempo setter for the year. We tell the kids that we will use it during the season, and that we do need to be able to do it flawlessly. We really like the message it sends that we expect to be ahead in close games.
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Post by John Knight on Dec 22, 2012 19:22:15 GMT -6
I have even seen coaches stage a fight in practice (live scrimmage) when the team was on the game field to teach players what not to do on Friday night.
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Post by larrymoe on Dec 23, 2012 0:13:16 GMT -6
I just like to be as efficient as possible and that means only practicing the stuff I know we'll need. I don't get into what if's. Do you know if you'll need your backup QB throwing the ball deep at the end of the game because you're down 2 scores late in the 4th? Do you practice your backup QB throwing these types of routes? Do you know if you'll need to kick on onside kick? Do you practice it? Do you know if you're going to have your kicker healthy late in the game to do it - or do you have both kickers practice onside kicks with the kickoff team? Do you know that week that your opponent will kick onside to you? Do you practice your hands team? Do you know if all 11 players on the hands team will still be uninjured or do you also work a couple of extra players on the hands team as well? Do you know that your starting center will only be able to play the 1st drive? Do you work your backup center with the 1st offense running the entire game plan? Please explain how you know what you'll need each week... Then, we wouldn't need to practice some fairly basic things for a minute on monday or 2 minutes on tuesday, etc. No, we don't practice crap with our backup QB. If he's in the game we're throwing it less than we did with our starter. Which was 63 times in 11 games. If he's in and it's late in the game, we're better off running sweep from the 50. In fact, we barely had a backup QB. With an entire roster of 42 kids 9-12 we only have one kid really capable of playing the position. He got hurt, we were screwed throwing the ball wise. Some may call that an oversight in planning, but we didn't have anyone on the roster even capable of taking his place passing wise, so why waste time repping someone? If we're down 2 scores late in the 4th, we're not winning by throwing the ball. Regardless of if our starter is in or not. We are not built to get out of holes like that. We did not practice one onside kick this year. With our backup or starter. I think we practiced hands team once this year because the team we were playing liked to do that muddle huddle crap and occasionally kick it onside. Our "hands" team consisted of our normal KOR just shifted around. As soon as they would run up to the line and fake kick and then spread out, we'd go back to normal. Idk that our backup center took a snap after two a days. If he had to during the year, it wouldn't be difficult. We don't change any of our rules regardless of who we're playing. We don't play the what if game. If something happens, we adjust. If we aren't able to adjust well enough on the fly, we lose. Life goes on. I don't want to waste my time or my kids time fretting over something that may or may not happen. We know what they're going to try to do to us, we know what we want to do and we spend every moment we can repping those two things. |
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