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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 13, 2007 12:24:52 GMT -6
Does a coach have a responsibility to pass up on job offers because he is currently in one? Isn't this simply a business decision already discussed in the contract?
Is this type of activity (coaches bolting) simply response to the "off with his head mentality" that has developed in sports?
Is there a professional way to do what was done? How should such an endeavor be handled?
As with many other things, will this environment trickle down heavily to the H.S. level?
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Post by Coach Goodnight on Dec 13, 2007 12:30:45 GMT -6
I say that if he has signed a contract then you hold him to it. If you dont then people start looking at signing contracts (giving your word) as uselss. There was a time when a mans word was all that was needed, now we have gone to signing contracts and now even that doesnt seem to hold water anymore. If you agree to do a job, the finish the job and then move on after your work is completed.
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Post by airman on Dec 13, 2007 12:41:47 GMT -6
with the events of coaches bolting you are going to see schools put clauses in them. while les miles had 1.25 million pay out to go to michigan. you will see this to go to any school. some schools are talking about say a 5 million payout to leave school a to go to school b.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 13, 2007 12:43:35 GMT -6
Coach Goodnight--What if the contract was legally executed, and his departure was within the proper execution of the contract?
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Post by tye2021 on Dec 13, 2007 12:51:18 GMT -6
I don't have a problem with him leaving. If your heart isn't into at the current job it will have a negative impact on the program and the organization/institution.
However......
1) He should have finished out the remainder of the season.
2) and this is the thing I have the biggest problem with. he should have been MAN enough to look those players in the eye and tell them verbally he is leaving. Leaving a letter pinned up in the locker wrong was in the words of the Falcon players themselves a COWARDLY!!!!
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Post by Coach Goodnight on Dec 13, 2007 12:57:41 GMT -6
then there is no problem with that, but I am with tye on this, have some balls be a man and finish the job, kinda like those that like to have their jollies but not take responsibility for their actions.
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Post by theprez98 on Dec 13, 2007 13:16:45 GMT -6
Is Urban Meyer any different?
2 years at Bowling Green
2 years at Utah
Now at Florida
I'm sure he had more than 2 year contracts at both places.
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Post by airman on Dec 13, 2007 13:20:55 GMT -6
i really think it is about the cut throat mentality of college and nfl football.
coaches get hired adn they get fired. If coaches are to honor contracts then schools should honor the contract no matter how bad you are.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 13, 2007 13:26:46 GMT -6
I would agree that his departure was quite lacking in professionalism. However, the "finish out the season" part--well, unfortunately there are timing issues involved. If he wants the Ark Job, he can't really finish out the season with ATL can he?
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Post by tye2021 on Dec 13, 2007 13:26:52 GMT -6
airman,
That is a good point. We do tend to get more upset at the coaches when they leave but you rarely hear anything negative about the schools/pro organizations for firing a coach before his contract is up.
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Post by superpower on Dec 13, 2007 13:30:18 GMT -6
airman, That is a good point. We do tend to get more upset at the coaches when they leave but you rarely hear anything negative about the schools/pro organizations for firing a coach before his contract is up. Isn't that because their contracts are "bought out?" My wife keeps hoping that someone will buy out my contract for the kind of money those guys get! |
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Post by Coach Goodnight on Dec 13, 2007 13:39:26 GMT -6
Why couldnt he finish out the season? 3 games left, and Arkansas knows he is "working" I think that with the coaches currently on staff they could handle recruiting until he is there. I mean, couldnt they have a 2-3 day meeting to set his expectations as far as recruits and then go from there?
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Post by knighter on Dec 13, 2007 13:57:47 GMT -6
stayed quiet until now, and since i have no dog in the fight I will say only this.
Loyalty is a 2 way street.
College and Pro coaches get none for the most part from admin/boosters/fans etc.
So why do we expect them to be "loyal" in return?
This is increasingly becoming true at the HS level as well.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 13, 2007 13:57:58 GMT -6
What possible good could lame ducking 3 weeks do for anyone? The NFL head coach is already pulled in a million directions...I dont see how on earth he could also steer the ship of an SEC program. 2-3 day meeting? When --in the 100+ hour work week that is an NFL coach would you schedule this?
There are PLENTY of capable coaches with the Falcon's staff. It couldn't possibly benefit anyone to have someone their in charge for 3 weeks if he wanted to be somewhere else.
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Post by Coach Goodnight on Dec 13, 2007 14:07:55 GMT -6
Im sure there are plenty, but still I would man up finish the job and move on then.
Now in the situation that Knighter is talking about I can understand that.
I guess you have to ask yourself, where does your sense of morality lie? My dad taught me that if you start a job finish it, dont just jump ship if the going gets tough, people will see you with more respect if you just be a man and finish the job.
Just makes me think where some peoples priorities lie.
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Post by burtledog on Dec 13, 2007 14:25:27 GMT -6
If we say the cutthroat mentality make jumping ship OK, then is going to the Arkansas pep rally w/o talking to the players (ie telling them he is leaving via xeroxed note) prior to leaving OK?
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 13, 2007 14:31:39 GMT -6
Coach Goodnight---Move on to where?
That is my issue.
I think Petrino botched up his exit pretty good from a public relations standpoint. We can list numerous ways this can have been handled differently/better...
However, the timing is the issue. If he "man's up" and "finishes the job"....where does he go?
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Post by brophy on Dec 13, 2007 14:32:47 GMT -6
If Petrino leaves in 3-4 weeks, what does he lose in recruiting?
[If you lose in recruiting how well do you do in NCAA football?]
If Petrino realizes in his heart he isn't the man for the job after accepting it, when is the "right" time to leave?
[does leaving early actually HELP the Falcons?.....give experience to interim coach and give them a headstart on finding a replacement before the season ends]
Did the situation Petrino agreed to in Atlanta change after he was hired?
[team culture, players, etc]
How much responsibility do the owner and GM have to play in hiring managers who may be full of smoke & mirrors?
[is Petrino made out to be an undeserving scapegoat to the problems of Atlanta]
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Post by CVBears on Dec 13, 2007 14:33:59 GMT -6
What possible good could lame ducking 3 weeks do for anyone? The NFL head coach is already pulled in a million directions...I dont see how on earth he could also steer the ship of an SEC program. 2-3 day meeting? When --in the 100+ hour work week that is an NFL coach would you schedule this? There are PLENTY of capable coaches with the Falcon's staff. It couldn't possibly benefit anyone to have someone their in charge for 3 weeks if he wanted to be somewhere else. This is exactly what I was thinking. How is a coach going to manage all aspects that he needs to do for an NFL game each week AND find a staff, recruit, for his college gig that's in the SEC (rather than upper mid northwest south carolina state junior college). I honestly don't think that these can be done at the same time. Petrino had to make a decision between taking a job that (I can only hope) his heart is more into OR stay three more weeks at the NFL spot and hope that another job is still available that he would like to have. Given the REALITY of the situation, I can not blame Petrino for his actions. |
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Post by coachcalande on Dec 13, 2007 14:39:14 GMT -6
Im sorry, I dont have all of the information and therefor cant really form an intelligent opinion on his actions. Who knows how he was being treated, what promises were made to him and werent upheld by the Falcons (ie, were there players in the draft that were passed on? or free agents not bid upon?) - the ultimate contract is coach and wife, that comes first and in almost any situation where his family needs have to met he has to put that ahead of football.
hard to judge the man and the situation without sitting down and getting both sides of the story.
interestingly, last year there was a hc somewhere around here who accepted a HC position, then a couple of weeks (days? months?) later he accepted another job at a different school...why? family.
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Post by Coach Goodnight on Dec 13, 2007 14:40:26 GMT -6
I guess my whole issue with it is the way in which it was handled. If he talked to Atlanta and say " I have the opprotunity to go to Arkansas and I know that my tenure here hasnt been great so I would like to leave with what little dignity I have left, then adress the team (Atlanta) and hold a press conference that he was taking the Arkansas job and that Atlanta had let him out of his contract.
Like I said before if they let him out of his contract then I have no problem with it, but just to leave and not even adress his players about it, I have issues with. I mean if he offered to stay and Atlanta tells him to go on then so be it, but if you have an obligation the finish and then go to Arkansas (Lame Duck or not.) You dont see lame duck presidents not doing anything when they know they are not going to be in office anymore, they finish the job in which they had agreed to do.
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Post by saintrad on Dec 13, 2007 14:41:59 GMT -6
I personally am glad to see Petrino back where he belongs in the college coaching ranks. I think he left Louisville for the wrong reason ($$$$) and the glamour of the NFL and you could see he was unhappy. His way of coaching (disciplinarian) didnt go over well with the overpriviedged elitists of the NFLPA and he saw an opportunity (like he has always done) and moved back to a more comfortable position. It was his and his families choice and he must live with himself and not a bunch of media or coaching types. Only he has to answer for his actions.
As a HS coach, loyalty is a 2 way street as knighter said. A coach goes out works hard, fields competative teams, and has high graduation rates and then gets canned so the "good ole' boys can have one of their own" is bad for business.
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Post by coachcb on Dec 13, 2007 14:53:50 GMT -6
I don't pretend to know the specifics of the situation, simply what has been reported. Here's my take on what's been reported.
The NFL and upper division college programs are run as a business with business endeavors being first and foremost. As a coach at that level, you have to view it as a business or you're going to lose your taste for it very quickly. Petrino made a business decision and moved on with his career.
How badly has Atlanta really been impacted? They have 3 weeks left in the season and no chance at a play-off game. The players don't like nor respect Petrino; you'd think they'd be happy with him leaving quietly. This season is basically done and has been for awhile. The Vick scandal set that into motion before the season started.
How will Arkansas benefit? They will get more out of having Pertrino recruiting than Atlanta will coaching. Once again, business decision; Petrino can do a better job in Arkansas than he can in Atlanta.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Dec 13, 2007 15:39:21 GMT -6
Some good points already. My first thought/question is: at what level is the coaching primarily a business dealing more than it is about helping young men develop? Certainly, the NFL wants good citizens, but the bottom line is Wins... and team finances. Is D1 college ball closer to the NFL? Are some big time HS like that? If so, than THAT is kind of a shame. I posted a question last summer about receiving another job offer (interview offer) a week before we went to team camp. That job was probably a bit (not substantially) better situation for me- both professionally and personally (family). Most people echoed what I already thought... I had invested too much and committed too much to my current team to even consider leaving. Some, however thought it was best to do "what is best for me". I declined to interview, because I would have felt bad about leaving here at that time (so close to the season, etc.). However, I do not think it is right to make it such a black and white process for everyone in every situation. I'm not a Petrino supporter (his Carroll College background makes him a "hated rival" still), but as brophy said... If Petrino realizes in his heart he isn't the man for the job after accepting it, when is the "right" time to leave?
[does leaving early actually HELP the Falcons?.....give experience to interim coach and give them a headstart on finding a replacement before the season ends]The Falcons are 3-10... this is professional football... seems like it is best for both parties to part ways now. College and Pro coaches get none for the most part from admin/boosters/fans etc.
So why do we expect them to be "loyal" in return?Knighter's comment is also true, but I think most of us tie "being a coach" in to "being one with integrity" (rightly so), but in an industry that sometimes (often?) lacks it, why does our society of sportacasters/Monday morning QBs demand that of the employees? (the continual admonishing of Pertino by ESPN has softened my stance against him). It is fine if WE want integrity within our profession... but I have a problem with him being called out on the Entertainment (and sometimes Sports) Programming Network. Would I leave like that (3 games left... not the other stuff... don't know much about the whole situation)? No. But I've never been at that level. I work with 15-18 year olds and to me, that demands a little more professional nobility on my part because I am working with impressionable kids. These are adults. For the record, I do not like the comments on ESPN that he can not "run with the big dogs". It might be professional suicide for one (NFL) level (which I have committed by leaving 5A for a tiny school), but won't hurt him in the long run (Lou Holtz did OK when he returned to college ball). Moving "down" a level signifies nothing but a desire to be at a different level. THAT I do understand; being in the wrong level (wrong place) for your talents can be very frustrating. I know I was ready to give up coaching (at the age of 34). Maybe Pertino felt the same way, and he feels a move was necessary to sustain his career. By the way, I did not leave at mid-season... but I'm sure a few parents wouldn't have minded if I did.  |
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Post by coachsky on Dec 13, 2007 15:59:32 GMT -6
I get the impression that Petrino is a darn good college football coach and is one of the top offensive strategists at the college level.
When you read between the lines you gotta wonder about the guys people skills and ulitimately his character. From what I have read and heard from at least one direct source is that the guy is not well loved by his players, coaching peers, the press, and people close to the programs he has been with.
Leaving mid season, notifying his current players and staff by a letter, not being straight with his owners when asked directly if he was pursuing other employment. These action show a lack of goodwill and questionable character.
Is this a guy you trust? There is no doubt he is talented.
I think your word and reputation is very important. In a postion of leadership, because we are working with student athletes, I think you should set a high bar for yourself in terms of character.
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Post by burtledog on Dec 13, 2007 16:07:21 GMT -6
All I have to say is Turbeville. This is not an isolated incident. He is always looking for the next job. That is my problem with him as was the not handling the resignation face to face with his players no matter how bad a fit he was or how mistreated he was. Those proplayers cannot go anywhere until they finish a contract (can be traded can be cut while on contract). 1A football players cannot transfer w/o sitting out a year (4 years becomes 5 ).
Greg
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Post by tye2021 on Dec 13, 2007 16:57:05 GMT -6
BASED ON REPORTS With his history of ALWAYS looking for the better deal or job, as a parent would you want your kid playing for a guy that has showed he is only committed to himself? Every coaching job he had, its been REPORTED(meaning I personally cannot confirm this  ) that he was always interviewing for another job. Even at Louisville he interviewed for the Aurburn job before leaving for Atlanta. Aparently this is a pattern for this guy. Now again if you are a parent and Patrino comes to your house to recruit your kid. Knowing that it has been reproted that his previous behavior suggest that he may leave at a moments notice. knowing that he wasn't MAN enough to look those guys in the eye to tell them personally he is leaving. Knowing that regardless of his situation with his team and or organization he quit on them in the middle of a rough season. Would you seriously allow your child to play for him? He hasn't had a coaching job for more than 2 years anywhere except Louisville. Again i don't know the reason behind all the moves. I also don't know the validity of the REPORTS of him always looking for the next oppotunity. But you have to admit he has alot more to answer for than his competitors do from a recruiting stand point. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 13, 2007 22:40:03 GMT -6
tye--until you are the Head Coach at ND, TEXAS, MICHIGAN, USC....you are ALWAYS going to be looking for and interviewing for that next HC job in the college ranks.
Now, his departure was sort of bush league from the reports...
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Post by cmow5 on Dec 14, 2007 1:10:49 GMT -6
Just a thought, But a couple of you said he could not do both, but Weis did it. for some reason I cant remember but I think Weis led New England to a Super Bowl( I could be wrong I seriously cant remember) Had top ten recruiting class and led the Irish to a BCS game. So It can be done. IMO. Once again I could be wrong about the Super Bowl and recruiting but I know he worked at both and I have never seen a man so physically exhausted in my life.
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Post by coachcoyote on Dec 14, 2007 1:21:24 GMT -6
I understand the business end of the NFL. Was the move a good one for him? Probably. His way of coaching doesn't fly at that level. It may have been a great move for he and his family. That being said, if he came to recruit my son, his reputation for jumping precedes him and I'd find it hard to counsel my boy to go with him. The biggest thing I have difficulty with is he didn't have the professionalism to face his players. Just because they may not have liked/respected him, I would have had to face them and show I was a professional and an honorable guy. Maybe that doesn't apply to him.
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) that he was always interviewing for another job. Even at Louisville he interviewed for the Aurburn job before leaving for Atlanta. Aparently this is a pattern for this guy. 