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Post by 19delta on Oct 21, 2012 7:52:33 GMT -6
Anyone who has coached has done or said something in the heat of the moment that we probably felt bad about later.
If it was me, I would meet with the player and his parents and apologize. I would tell them why I got so angry and would take complete responsibility for the situation escalating to such a potentially dangerous level. In the end, you are the adult. Children often behave childishly. Adults should be above that.
Apologizing is not a sign a weakness. It is just self-awareness that you didn't handle a situation as efficiently as you could have.
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Post by airraider on Oct 21, 2012 8:00:53 GMT -6
2. I feel that the kid balling up his fist and poking his chest out at me was the wrong thing to do... I simply made him aware that it would not be the best idea for him to follow through with it. Calling total BS on this one Air. You were trying to assert yourself as the "alpha dog". Given that you probably are close to 3 times the kids size..... all the yelling, screaming etc..makes matters even worse. You need a mirror man. Seriously. That is what many of the coaches in this thread are trying to be to you....you are acting JUST LIKE the kid. "I didn't do anything wrong..i'm not sorry for anything I did"...when you have your PEERS saying (in a very polite and non condescending way) um, hey buddy, you messed this one up. Hell, at least the kid knew he screwed up, and I would bet a pretty hefty sum that all of the yelling and screaming and "punishment" in the world would be less effective than other players simply pointing out that he hurt the team. Kid screwed up, kid probably would have been into the game with a lazer like focus for the rest of the night (like a driver refocuses when he almost gets into a wreck). All the hollering, screaming, lecturing, threatening...probably were not needed to create the behavior change you wanted anyway. As brophy pointed out, I can recall many posts of yours WAILING about how you felt regarding your previous tenures as HC. Like I said, I've been there. And thankfully, I have learned to deconstruct all the events, and that has helped me keep cool in situations such as this. But step one has to be "wow..i could have done this differently and the problem I wanted addressed would have been addressed, and I would not have created any additional problems for myself" Right now, you are still at the "nope, I didn't do anything wrong, they can all go "f" themselves" part. Got to get some mirrors. Heck, imagine this board conversation, was happening live and in person. Imagine that rather than typing, those whose opinions and thoughts you "disagreed with" were YELLING and screaming at you, while your mom, dad, wife, family, friends etc were watching. Imagine that after a few minutes, coaches came back to you again, to tell you that if you don't like it, that maybe you shouldn't be coaching football...and that when you tried to walk away, we grabbed you to keep you from walking away... You obviously are out of touch... at least with this situation... The kid getting yelled at was not over him not going in on the punt team... it was over him talking back. There is a HUGE difference between myself and that kid in terms of my old job... 1. I never disrespected my principal in front of my peers/his employees. 2. I never tried to physically threaten my principal. 3. If that kid didn't like the way I handled the matter and choose to get on playerhuey.com and voice his problems then so be it. I think its rather amusing that most posters on this board have a problem with how I handled things in relation to current norms... where as you simply think its the wrong thing to do either way... I personally had coaches who would have yanked my facemask off my head and then had me running until I puked come monday if I pulled any of that smart mouth crap... and rightfully so...
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Post by airraider on Oct 21, 2012 8:05:26 GMT -6
Anyone who has coached has done or said something in the heat of the moment that we probably felt bad about later. If it was me, I would meet with the player and his parents and apologize. I would tell them why I got so angry and would take complete responsibility for the situation escalating to such a potentially dangerous level. In the end, you are the adult. Children often behave childishly. Adults should be above that. Apologizing is not a sign a weakness. It is just self-awareness that you didn't handle a situation as efficiently as you could have. I will not apologize for something that I feel was the right thing to do. I can however see the view of some other posters that in the future it would probably be best to handle it differently...
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Post by fballcoachg on Oct 21, 2012 8:42:04 GMT -6
The yelling isn't wrong, the "better make it a hard one" was wrong (messages are frequently misunderstood and i think to a T all of us would consider that a threat if it were said to us, no post posturin makes that any different and in my mind is a bigger issue than the jersey) and the grabbing the jersey probably wasn't the greatest idea. It doesn't seem from your post mom is upset you yelled, mom is upset you grabbed her kid. You have made it clear you don't feel any remorse for your actions however if you ever look at it and think about it in a different light you may consider saying, "Johnny, I should not have put my hands on you however I need you to be in the game and can't have you disrespecting a coach. While there is no excuse for an adult grabbing a kid I want you to understand that my message was that what you were doing was unacceptable, I made a mistake though by getting physical." Doesn't seem like you'll consider that alternative but its something to look at. I have grabbed jerseys before however the kids reaction is more important then your action whether you like it or not...had one this year that I pushed out of the door way when he was barging in and I called him after practice to apologize and tell him it was the wrong thing to do. Funny thing is he didn't even think twice about it however what is wrong is wrong and he deserved to know that.
Sidenote, coaches in the past also didn't let kids get water and made them play with concussions, doesn't make it ok and that argument holds zero water.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 21, 2012 8:43:39 GMT -6
Air--- seriously man? We are trying to help you out. Regarding the norms, I think the others are simply saying that you probably wouldn't have been in trouble under previous norms. That doesn't make those norms right, or the most effective way to do things any more than the Junction Boys days. The fact that running the kid and keeping water from them was the "norm" to toughen them up, didn't really make it the most effective way to do things did it?
So YES, you are correct that I think it was "wrong" (your word, not mine) in that it wasn't the best way to handle the situation under any societal norms regarding coaching/football.
Again, look at this conversation. Several of your peers have called you out, and your responses (for the most part) have been somewhat flippant, and not taking ownership of your own actions (ahem..much like the phrase "I didn't hear anyone call punt"). When I (and a few others) have tried to help you with constructive criticism, spoken from experience...the reply is "I didn't do anything wrong, I will not apologize". Seriously Air.. MIRRORS!!!! You are doing what the kid did...
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Post by airraider on Oct 21, 2012 8:54:25 GMT -6
points taken
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Post by brophy on Oct 21, 2012 8:59:34 GMT -6
There is a HUGE difference between myself and that kid in terms of my old job... 1. I never disrespected my principal in front of my peers/his employees. 2. I never tried to physically threaten my principal. 3. If that kid didn't like the way I handled the matter and choose to get on playerhuey.com and voice his problems then so be it. actually what coachd5085 and myself were referencing was how that principal treated you (alpha-ing and demeaning you) not how you treated him. I totally understand the justified feelings, though. I mean, this really would've been the norm 20 years ago. Nowadays, not so much. That hollerin' and anger stuff just doesn't fly with kids these days, and as uncomfortable as it is for me to adjust to it, its honestly good for them that it doesn't because NOBODY should put up with that kind of abusive treatment. It usually doesn't feel good to be upset and frustrated, and communicating by venting that anger only amps our emotions (makes it worse). You weren't wrong for being upset with the player, but not letting it go rather than just finding the solution is where you could've pumped the brakes (because it gave him all the leverage to make you look bad) All that really matters now, though, is damage control and possibly learn from the situation. Game night is stressful enough without adding to the problem and I don't know about you, but I'm not counting on 17 year old kids to make me feel secure that things won't screw up. 1. CALL for punt/PAT team on deck / ready on 3rd down 2. Special Team mats. I thought this idea was ridiculous when it was presented early on in my coaching career, but it makes a WORLD of difference on game night. These issues will never happen again with the ST mats (you can make your own). above all, though, good luck and hope things improve for ya
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kyle
Sophomore Member
Posts: 200
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Post by kyle on Oct 21, 2012 9:47:22 GMT -6
You obviously are out of touch... at least with this situation... The kid getting yelled at was not over him not going in on the punt team... it was over him talking back. There is a HUGE difference between myself and that kid in terms of my old job... 1. I never disrespected my principal in front of my peers/his employees. 2. I never tried to physically threaten my principal. 3. If that kid didn't like the way I handled the matter and choose to get on playerhuey.com and voice his problems then so be it. I think its rather amusing that most posters on this board have a problem with how I handled things in relation to current norms... where as you simply think its the wrong thing to do either way... I personally had coaches who would have yanked my facemask off my head and then had me running until I puked come monday if I pulled any of that smart mouth crap... and rightfully so... I think he's right. When you fight with him you're taking yourself down to his level. When he acts like that, don't raise your voice. Kick him out right then and there, and if he wants back, he'll take his punishment, maybe he pukes. That should never be the intention though. That's stupid. I'm not a coach who yells during games. I think it's negative behavior, but obviously there are coaches who yell. If you're going to be one of them, you'd better be able to handle yourself when someone talks back. That's the other reason I don't yell. I don't ever want to lose control or lose my cool. When I do that, it's hard for me to think.
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Post by 33coach on Oct 21, 2012 11:24:27 GMT -6
Coach, i've been in hot water before to, because i'm the fiery one on the sidelines (mid 20 yr old DC..what do they expect?) I really hope everything works out and blows over.
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Post by mariettablue on Oct 21, 2012 12:00:07 GMT -6
Football at any level is a volunteer first situation. Every kid that comes to the tryouts and continues on does it voluntarily. You may get offered a free education or contracts but your not forced to play. There are rules that are brought into make the game safer, some are great while others weaken the game.
I'm saying this because the entire game of football is built off of physical and mental toughness while using skill and strategy to both avoid and create a violent physical contact against an opponent to gain an advantage. In so many words if a person can't be tough (Mentally and Physically) or handle violent contact then maybe they shouldn't be playing this game.
Every player that puts on a uniform has to do it by the rules of the game. There are players that are physically different such as missing a limb, being deaf or even being a female but there are no real concessions afforded to them because they are not the usual football players. Once they put that uniform on they have to accept what comes along with being a football player.
Now I'm not in a position to take sides either way because it sounds like it could have been an isolated incident that got out of hand. Every player is different as an individual and that can be said for every coach that the football player will encounter if they continue playing football. I played for coaches that fit every kind of coach that's known and I believe that the diverse attributes of each coach helps you to face some of the mean things the other team is saying during the plays or maybe even the jersey snatching that's going to be happening between or sometimes after the whistle.
I believe there is a definite line that shouldn't be crossed but grabbing a jersey?
It's really unfortunate also that "Sexual Harassment" was even brought into this situation because it has no place on the field or in this game.
Imagine if every person that plays the center position cried "sexual harassment". Sounds silly doesn't it?
Good luck coach.
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Post by Chris Clement on Oct 21, 2012 12:38:23 GMT -6
There is a HUGE difference between myself and that kid in terms of my old job... 1. I never disrespected my principal in front of my peers/his employees. 2. I never tried to physically threaten my principal. 3. If that kid didn't like the way I handled the matter and choose to get on playerhuey.com and voice his problems then so be it. actually what coachd5085 and myself were referencing was how that principal treated you (alpha-ing and demeaning you) not how you treated him. I totally understand the justified feelings, though. I mean, this really would've been the norm 20 years ago. Nowadays, not so much. That hollerin' and anger stuff just doesn't fly with kids these days, and as uncomfortable as it is for me to adjust to it, its honestly good for them that it doesn't because NOBODY should put up with that kind of abusive treatment. It usually doesn't feel good to be upset and frustrated, and communicating by venting that anger only amps our emotions (makes it worse). You weren't wrong for being upset with the player, but not letting it go rather than just finding the solution is where you could've pumped the brakes (because it gave him all the leverage to make you look bad) All that really matters now, though, is damage control and possibly learn from the situation. Game night is stressful enough without adding to the problem and I don't know about you, but I'm not counting on 17 year old kids to make me feel secure that things won't screw up. 1. CALL for punt/PAT team on deck / ready on 3rd down 2. Special Team mats. I thought this idea was ridiculous when it was presented early on in my coaching career, but it makes a WORLD of difference on game night. These issues will never happen again with the ST mats (you can make your own). above all, though, good luck and hope things improve for ya A little off-topic, but I have to second the ST mats. When I was STC at The Zoo I would make myself a 5ydx5yd square and absolutely nobody, not even the HC, was allowed in there if I didn't say so. If a ST player wasn't actively being spoken to by another coach I wanted them next to me. I was a complete f-ing tyrant about it all season and we never had a bust.
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Oct 21, 2012 15:21:45 GMT -6
This is a great thread for young guys to learn things, which is one of the reasons that I post here. Sorry it has to be at the expense of one of our regular guys.
I've got some young guys on my staff this year, my DC is only 1 season from playing, so he's a kid. Great kid though, but as with all young guys they can act like the players from time to time. I'm usually on him about yelling too much because the kids tune him out and the parents are all over ME about it. But I realize what he is and I remind the parents "that he's young so have some patience with him" (just like I did Friday night)
But one of the things that has been touched on here is that my DC sometimes does the exact thing that he is accusing the player of doing and I have to remind him of that. Every once in a while I have to tell him to "stop acting like _____-kid's name" and get above the emotion of it. I tell him to turn it off now or to put it in his pocket and move on. I have to tell him to focus on the next play, or to "get his head right." Sometimes to tone if down a little, or I just say "would you please shut up." Sometimes I have to say, "doesn't matter what you think, I'm the boss." I expect this out of a young guy because, well, he's a young guy. Now in a few years if he's still acting like a kid, he won't be coaching for me. The good thing is that he's a natural coach as is his father.
I think that a coach should be in control of himself at all times, if he's not, then find something else to do. I"m not talking about acting sleepy, dopey, or lazy (is that one of the 7 dwarfs?). But contolling yourself and using your emotions as a tool or success will carry you much much farther than being out of control. Being "out of control" will get you fired, or sued or both.
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Post by fantom on Oct 21, 2012 15:45:26 GMT -6
T I"m not talking about acting sleepy, dopey, or lazy (is that one of the 7 dwarfs?). Was supposed to be but he didn't feel like going off to work.
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Post by dubber on Oct 21, 2012 22:19:18 GMT -6
2. I feel that the kid balling up his fist and poking his chest out at me was the wrong thing to do... I simply made him aware that it would not be the best idea for him to follow through with it.This tells me your ego, at some point, started driving your decision making. There is a better way to handle this......
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Post by dubber on Oct 21, 2012 22:26:25 GMT -6
They would think I have an anger issue after I take a timeout to tell that (insert derogatory term for female) to get the (4 letter word) off the field. I would lose my mind. And, that kid is ridiculous.
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Post by 33coach on Oct 22, 2012 1:50:22 GMT -6
2. I feel that the kid balling up his fist and poking his chest out at me was the wrong thing to do... I simply made him aware that it would not be the best idea for him to follow through with it.This tells me your ego, at some point, started driving your decision making. There is a better way to handle this...... just for the sake of learning... how would you handle this exact situation?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2012 3:39:24 GMT -6
I guess I don't see the grabbing of the jersey as that big of a deal either. Someone brought up an example of if this happened in class, which is a different situation. Without a pair of shoulder pads on it would be nearly impossible to grab someone by the shirt without making physical contact with them. If the player was grabbed by the arm, I do see that as a different situation than grabbing them by the jersey (over a pair of shoulder pads).
I see it as being no different than a congratulatory helmet slap. If the kid wasn't wearing a helmet, none of us would slap the kid on the head, but how many of us give a kid a slap on the helmet after a big play?
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creid
Sophomore Member
Posts: 148
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Post by creid on Oct 22, 2012 5:33:25 GMT -6
One of the best lessons I have learned in coaching was when I was coaching D-III ball as a DC. As a staff, we were on the kids about everything all week...kids were disciplined for everything and the players were coached hard. The night before the opener we have a meeting, the HC tells us that nobody yells at a kid on game day, they are not out there in front of their university, family, friends, and teammates trying to screw it up....game day is for fun, and it should be fun. If a kid screws up, call them over, talk to them about it in a rational way, and they won't screw it up again, plus they will respect you. Guess what...it works and 15 years later his teams are always in contention for a conference championship.
By the way, I don't think grabbing a kid is sexual assault...I think the police would just charge you with good old fashion assault...you may want to apologize and talk to the school's lawyer.
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Post by coachbuck on Oct 22, 2012 6:35:17 GMT -6
Airraider, in this day you cant touch a kid out of anger. Even if you say you where not angry. If I was in the stands and was watching you would it appear that you where angry when you grabbed the kid? I dont think what you did was really wrong but I do think your bosses will tell you, you where wrong. Your going to have to swallow a little pride this time. I wouldnt apologize either. I would simply tell my boss that I wont touch a kid again and leave it at that. Once a year I usually say something I regret. Always in the heat of the moment. Your a coach, you cant be perfect. I hope your HC steps up for you.
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Post by ogre5530 on Oct 22, 2012 7:05:31 GMT -6
I just can't get over the fact that you make 35K to coach! I'd love to have that as a coach...I thought it was nice that I was making 3K to coach!!
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Post by dubber on Oct 22, 2012 9:58:27 GMT -6
This tells me your ego, at some point, started driving your decision making. There is a better way to handle this...... just for the sake of learning... how would you handle this exact situation? Kid gets sent to lockerroom.......failure to respond to authority on the field means you don't even get to watch.
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erat76
Freshmen Member
Posts: 64
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Post by erat76 on Oct 22, 2012 13:01:24 GMT -6
Sure you can yell at kids. Some will yell back, some will just take it, others will shut down. But you cannot lay a finger on a kid!!!!!!
Not to change the topic completely, but taking it another direction...
How many of you demonstrate blocking techniques on your players? Not going 100%, but just to show them what you are looking for? I try to use kids to demonstrate on other kids. Otherwise, I'll find an assistant coach for me to demonstrate on. Just a little food for thought. You never know when that a kid will go home and tell his parents "Coach _______ hit me during practice today." Even though it's taken out of context, you can guess what happens next. You're wasting time defending yourself and your staff for something that was not a big deal instead of preparing the team for it's next game.
Just remember, the teaching/coaching profession is one that many times you're guilty until proven innocent.
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Post by coachcb on Oct 22, 2012 14:11:45 GMT -6
How many of you demonstrate blocking techniques on your players? Not going 100%, but just to show them what you are looking for? I try to use kids to demonstrate on other kids. Otherwise, I'll find an assistant coach for me to demonstrate on. Just a little food for thought. You never know when that a kid will go home and tell his parents "Coach _______ hit me during practice today." Even though it's taken out of context, you can guess what happens next. You're wasting time defending yourself and your staff for something that was not a big deal instead of preparing the team for it's next game. I was going to bring this up as well, good point coach. I had an interesting conversation with mom, dad and an AD once because I demonstrated a lead pull at 50% and ran over a 5'11'' 230lb 17 year old. I was honestly going slow and taking it easy but the strike and hip roll sent him flying. He didn't have anything broken, just some bruised feelings because the team laughed at him.
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Post by CS on Oct 22, 2012 20:17:44 GMT -6
Sure you can yell at kids. Some will yell back, some will just take it, others will shut down. But you cannot lay a finger on a kid!!!!!! Not to change the topic completely, but taking it another direction... How many of you demonstrate blocking techniques on your players? Not going 100%, but just to show them what you are looking for? I try to use kids to demonstrate on other kids. Otherwise, I'll find an assistant coach for me to demonstrate on. Just a little food for thought. You never know when that a kid will go home and tell his parents "Coach _______ hit me during practice today." Even though it's taken out of context, you can guess what happens next. You're wasting time defending yourself and your staff for something that was not a big deal instead of preparing the team for it's next game. Just remember, the teaching/coaching profession is one that many times you're guilty until proven innocent. I have never heard of anything like this. What state are you guys in because what he did and what you guys are talking about would never be issues here. It's just crazy to me, but rednecks love hard coaching
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Post by 33coach on Oct 22, 2012 20:59:38 GMT -6
Sure you can yell at kids. Some will yell back, some will just take it, others will shut down. But you cannot lay a finger on a kid!!!!!! Not to change the topic completely, but taking it another direction... How many of you demonstrate blocking techniques on your players? Not going 100%, but just to show them what you are looking for? I try to use kids to demonstrate on other kids. Otherwise, I'll find an assistant coach for me to demonstrate on. Just a little food for thought. You never know when that a kid will go home and tell his parents "Coach _______ hit me during practice today." Even though it's taken out of context, you can guess what happens next. You're wasting time defending yourself and your staff for something that was not a big deal instead of preparing the team for it's next game. Just remember, the teaching/coaching profession is one that many times you're guilty until proven innocent. I have never heard of anything like this. What state are you guys in because what he did and what you guys are talking about would never be issues here. It's just crazy to me, but rednecks love hard coaching Im in a beach town in california. This would NEVER fly. (practice gets cancelled if it rains...not even kidding...) Sent from my DROID Pro using proboards
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Post by airman on Oct 22, 2012 21:48:20 GMT -6
I have never heard of anything like this. What state are you guys in because what he did and what you guys are talking about would never be issues here. It's just crazy to me, but rednecks love hard coaching Im in a beach town in california. This would NEVER fly. (practice gets cancelled if it rains...not even kidding...) Sent from my DROID Pro using proboards a we practice in the rain, the snow, the wind, the cold and the hot july heat. oh, even the fog.
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Post by amikell on Oct 22, 2012 22:18:42 GMT -6
Sure you can yell at kids. Some will yell back, some will just take it, others will shut down. But you cannot lay a finger on a kid!!!!!! Not to change the topic completely, but taking it another direction... How many of you demonstrate blocking techniques on your players? Not going 100%, but just to show them what you are looking for? I try to use kids to demonstrate on other kids. Otherwise, I'll find an assistant coach for me to demonstrate on. Just a little food for thought. You never know when that a kid will go home and tell his parents "Coach _______ hit me during practice today." Even though it's taken out of context, you can guess what happens next. You're wasting time defending yourself and your staff for something that was not a big deal instead of preparing the team for it's next game. Just remember, the teaching/coaching profession is one that many times you're guilty until proven innocent. How can you coach with out demonstration? I demonstrate as a lot in football, but in wrestling I roll with the kids. Crap. I'm glad wrestling parents aren't usually sensitive about this stuff. Heck our last coach had tap out Tuesdays, when kids would see how long they could go before he made them tap out.
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Post by Chris Clement on Oct 22, 2012 22:23:39 GMT -6
Seriously? Rain?
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Post by dubber on Oct 22, 2012 23:55:49 GMT -6
Hell, am I the only one pining for tap out tuesdays?!
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Post by Coach JR on Oct 23, 2012 8:29:55 GMT -6
You can always excuse hollering at a kid but touching a player will get your a-- in a sling. Honestly coach, you and the staff would have had grounds to boot the kid off of the team but grabbing him made it a whole different ball game. Around here, laying a hand on a kid is bad news, even if its in self defense. I broke up a fight last year, one of the kids took a swing at me, ended up on his butt and I had to have a discussion with the powers-that-be. It all comes down to wanted or unwanted contact. I put my arm around my players i am a 'hands on' coach. But if i kid even hints at 'no' i have to back off. Sent from my DROID Pro using proboards That may be the law in Kalifornia, but not everywhere.
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