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Post by airraider on Sept 29, 2012 12:14:27 GMT -6
So we literally cannot stop the run.. just cant.. people know it.. and every week we get some time of power running game.. last night they got in 2 tight.. with extra tackles as the TE... wishbone.. only 2 eligible players on offense..
Off tackle plays kill us.. wash down everyone inside that TE spot.. all 3 backs kick and fill an they would power sweep with QB..
We have only 1 kid over 200 on defense and he is lazy and takes about 3 out of 4 plays off.
Soooo...
Our offense is pretty explosive.. scored 82 last week.. 48 last night.. but we are in shoot outs..
Statistically... I feel we would be better off to just onside it everytime..
If we can get 1 or 2 back a game we are better off if we know we are probably not going to stop them on defense.
We have 3 games left in a 4 week span.. have to win 1 out of the 2 district games left to get in the playoffs..
But our defense is not where its at...
Any thoughts?
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 29, 2012 12:24:12 GMT -6
go for it. If you aren't stopping anyone...you won't stop them from the -30ish any more than you will stop them from the 50 will you?
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km007
Freshmen Member
Posts: 16
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Post by km007 on Sept 29, 2012 12:27:08 GMT -6
We did this last year. We would recover about two a game. Against one team, we recovered four straight and coasted to a win, even though they scored about thirty.
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Post by airraider on Sept 29, 2012 12:28:13 GMT -6
go for it. If you aren't stopping anyone...you won't stop them from the -30ish any more than you will stop them from the 50 will you? That is what I am thinking.. plus those extra 20 yards might eat up an extra 3 or 4 minutes over the course of the game.. |
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Post by Chris Clement on Sept 29, 2012 14:30:52 GMT -6
The time off the clock isn't really important, but the stolen possessions will be the diffference if both teams are scoring on every drive.
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Post by fantom on Sept 29, 2012 14:52:24 GMT -6
I'll offer a dissenting view. In HS football if you make the offense work for their points there's a good chance that they'll stop themselves with mistakes.
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Post by blb on Sept 29, 2012 15:41:11 GMT -6
You Achieve What You Emphasize.
You're scoring that many points and struggle to win?
fantom - don't think Defense is his bag.
Short answer, sure - go ahead and Onside every time.
If you don't recover 'em at least you'll get the ball back sooner because Offense will have short field to navigate..
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kyle
Sophomore Member
Posts: 200
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Post by kyle on Sept 29, 2012 18:02:43 GMT -6
Can you tackle?
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Post by Chris Clement on Sept 29, 2012 18:09:04 GMT -6
I'm going to say no...
I'm making the assumption that you guys are just plain awful on D, and that you won't be stopping anyone, at any time, regardless of field position.
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Post by airraider on Sept 29, 2012 20:32:41 GMT -6
Tackling is not the best... but even when we do tackle well, we are not getting people to the ball until 4 or 5 yards down the field...
They were a very finess team last year... no weightroom... we have been in there this summer and a couple of days a week during the season... but long way to go.
Baseball school... (won state last year)... only 4 seniors on the team... lots of sophomores starting on defense.
We are giving up about 100lbs on average on the d-line vs the O-line.... 280 vs 180 type deal...
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Post by silkyice on Sept 29, 2012 20:47:03 GMT -6
Tackling is not the best... but even when we do tackle well, we are not getting people to the ball until 4 or 5 yards down the field... They were a very finess team last year... no weightroom... we have been in there this summer and a couple of days a week during the season... but long way to go. Baseball school... (won state last year)... only 4 seniors on the team... lots of sophomores starting on defense. We are giving up about 100lbs on average on the d-line vs the O-line.... 280 vs 180 type deal... Onside kick sounds smart. Slant and blitz on defense. |
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Post by blb on Sept 29, 2012 21:04:37 GMT -6
ar, I don't know of any strategies that will compensate for that.
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Post by brophy on Sept 29, 2012 21:11:18 GMT -6
what happens next year?
the weight argument is an excuse and not really valid. EVERY defense is 'undersized' and out gunned. What is going to FIX the defense?
kids lazy? sounds like a coaching issue
kids don't tackle? sounds like a coaching issue
kids aren't in proper fits? sounds like a coaching issue
flip the argument to offense - kids fumble or don't catch passes....what are you going to do?
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Post by Chris Clement on Sept 29, 2012 21:22:04 GMT -6
Well, obviously there are deeper issues here, but there are also things you can do to solve the immediate problem.
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Post by airraider on Sept 29, 2012 21:32:12 GMT -6
what happens next year? the weight argument is an excuse and not really valid. EVERY defense is 'undersized' and out gunned. What is going to FIX the defense? kids lazy? sounds like a coaching issue kids don't tackle? sounds like a coaching issue kids aren't in proper fits? sounds like a coaching issue flip the argument to offense - kids fumble or don't catch passes....what are you going to do? Its a can't do vs won't do situation... you can fix won't do by removing them... can't do you just hang on and hope for the best. Most are not lazy... the one big kid is... so his size really doesnt help us... we can't rely on him to be the player we need... They tackle, but not getting to the point until its too late... Run fits are a trouble... not getting kids to the ally.. we are turning it back in... but not squeezing it effectively mainly because we have 140lb kids on the outside trying to take on 240lb fullbacks kicking them out... Linebackers are too slow at getting to the ally, thus we are not being effective... But that is the least of our problems when they can simply line up and run lead at us for 5 yards a pop because our smaller kids are on skates. Answer for next year??? recruit bigger kids! lol |
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kyle
Sophomore Member
Posts: 200
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Post by kyle on Sept 30, 2012 0:39:46 GMT -6
Tackling is not the best... You should work on tackling then. As far as onside kicking it... I've seen a pretty neat graph that shows how the number of average points decrease when an offense starts farther away from the end zone. At 25 yards the average offense scores 2 points. At 50 yards the average points are about 3.5. In other words, if you kick it deep 3.5 times, the offense will score once. If you onside kick it 2 times, the offense will score on you once. Another {censored} statistic I've heard is that you can recover about 1/3 onside kicks. And if you do that, you'll be on the 50, which gives you 3.5 points. So that means that even though they will score every 2 times they touch it, you will touch it once per 3 kicks. So take 1/3 of 3.5 and subtract it from 3.5 to equal 2.3 points. So the points you gain from kicking it deep are .3 points per kick. Also, that doesn't factor in the times that the return man took it in for a TD... and it doesn't factor in the fact that all of this was based off some college football blogs that I read some time. |
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Post by mariettablue on Sept 30, 2012 1:17:06 GMT -6
I just want to add my two cents coach. I like playing an offensive kind of Defense. By this I mean don't let the O-line play target practice. You might have to get creative and use one of your most aggressive and quick smaller players that can get the gap fast and use a few stunts and blitzes. Also, If they are lining up with only 2 eligible players that gives you some extra defenders right? You just have to figure out how to disguise your defensive strategy and get some stops behind the LOS.
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Post by silkyice on Sept 30, 2012 7:26:08 GMT -6
Tackling is not the best... You should work on tackling then. As far as onside kicking it... I've seen a pretty neat graph that shows how the number of average points decrease when an offense starts farther away from the end zone. At 25 yards the average offense scores 2 points. At 50 yards the average points are about 3.5. In other words, if you kick it deep 3.5 times, the offense will score once. If you onside kick it 2 times, the offense will score on you once. Another {censored} statistic I've heard is that you can recover about 1/3 onside kicks. And if you do that, you'll be on the 50, which gives you 3.5 points. So that means that even though they will score every 2 times they touch it, you will touch it once per 3 kicks. So take 1/3 of 3.5 and subtract it from 3.5 to equal 2.3 points. So the points you gain from kicking it deep are .3 points per kick. Also, that doesn't factor in the times that the return man took it in for a TD... and it doesn't factor in the fact that all of this was based off some college football blogs that I read some time. These stats ignore some huge key points. First, those are average stats. Average defenses are giving up 20 points a game not 50. Huge difference. Second and most important, I doubt that if they kick deep the other team will now magically start at the 25. They can return kicks to the 35, 50, and take them all the way. An onside kick will at least limit them to the 50 to 40 or so. Many times we have considered a suprise onside kick or deep kick on a specific situation. Many of those times the teams have run it back past the 45. We always say, "should have onside kicked." LOL |
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Post by airraider on Sept 30, 2012 9:03:31 GMT -6
Yea, this is not any type of average situation... we are literally out manned up front vs every team we face... Our first loss saw a fairly athletic 350 kid in the backfield who out weighed our biggest guy by 110lbs..
Friday night we adjusted and readjusted... we even ran an 8-3 at one point.. putting someone in every gap.. and playing man on the 2 eligible backs and the QB.. still picked up yards...
We stacked in a 33 and stunted all 6 into gaps... had a few stops in the backfield... then they just went foot to foot and cut off penatration...
we went to our bear front and triple stacked C gap with a 50 tech backer, 6 tech end and a 9 tech end..
They did a really good job of adjusting to our adjustments... we really had to over play things to take them away making us weak in another area...
We figure if we can slant and play fast we can get a stop or two a game... our offense is VERY potent with 4 great receivers and a really good QB... we should be able to out score most teams we face...
We ourselves happened to allow them to recover 2 onside kicks themselves the other night... that gave them the extra possessions they needed to win by 7.
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Post by fballcoachg on Sept 30, 2012 10:31:37 GMT -6
Sounds like you already know what you want to do...kick it onside and let us know how it goes.
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Post by fantom on Sept 30, 2012 11:09:50 GMT -6
Yea, this is not any type of average situation... we are literally out manned up front vs every team we face... Our first loss saw a fairly athletic 350 kid in the backfield who out weighed our biggest guy by 110lbs.. Friday night we adjusted and readjusted... we even ran an 8-3 at one point.. putting someone in every gap.. and playing man on the 2 eligible backs and the QB.. still picked up yards... We stacked in a 33 and stunted all 6 into gaps... had a few stops in the backfield... then they just went foot to foot and cut off penatration... we went to our bear front and triple stacked C gap with a 50 tech backer, 6 tech end and a 9 tech end.. They did a really good job of adjusting to our adjustments... we really had to over play things to take them away making us weak in another area... We figure if we can slant and play fast we can get a stop or two a game... our offense is VERY potent with 4 great receivers and a really good QB... we should be able to out score most teams we face... We ourselves happened to allow them to recover 2 onside kicks themselves the other night... that gave them the extra possessions they needed to win by 7. Air, we're in the same boat as you this year- we just can't stop the run. On the rare occasions where we've stopped anyone it's been when they had to drive the whole field. The bad guys would get a penalty, or a runner would slip, or something would throw them off schedule. When they had a short field, we've been giving up points like clockwork. HS offenses are an accident waiting to happen. Every extra snap that they have to take to score is another chance for them to screw up. Why not give them that chance? |
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Post by airraider on Sept 30, 2012 12:14:54 GMT -6
Yea, this is not any type of average situation... we are literally out manned up front vs every team we face... Our first loss saw a fairly athletic 350 kid in the backfield who out weighed our biggest guy by 110lbs.. Friday night we adjusted and readjusted... we even ran an 8-3 at one point.. putting someone in every gap.. and playing man on the 2 eligible backs and the QB.. still picked up yards... We stacked in a 33 and stunted all 6 into gaps... had a few stops in the backfield... then they just went foot to foot and cut off penatration... we went to our bear front and triple stacked C gap with a 50 tech backer, 6 tech end and a 9 tech end.. They did a really good job of adjusting to our adjustments... we really had to over play things to take them away making us weak in another area... We figure if we can slant and play fast we can get a stop or two a game... our offense is VERY potent with 4 great receivers and a really good QB... we should be able to out score most teams we face... We ourselves happened to allow them to recover 2 onside kicks themselves the other night... that gave them the extra possessions they needed to win by 7. Air, we're in the same boat as you this year- we just can't stop the run. On the rare occasions where we've stopped anyone it's been when they had to drive the whole field. The bad guys would get a penalty, or a runner would slip, or something would throw them off schedule. When they had a short field, we've been giving up points like clockwork. HS offenses are an accident waiting to happen. Every extra snap that they have to take to score is another chance for them to screw up. Why not give them that chance? We have the last 7 games... been a tough go so far... at least we are 4-3... thank goodnes for that offense.. |
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kyle
Sophomore Member
Posts: 200
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Post by kyle on Sept 30, 2012 12:49:06 GMT -6
Yea, this is not any type of average situation... we are literally out manned up front vs every team we face... Our first loss saw a fairly athletic 350 kid in the backfield who out weighed our biggest guy by 110lbs.. Friday night we adjusted and readjusted... we even ran an 8-3 at one point.. putting someone in every gap.. and playing man on the 2 eligible backs and the QB.. still picked up yards... We stacked in a 33 and stunted all 6 into gaps... had a few stops in the backfield... then they just went foot to foot and cut off penatration... we went to our bear front and triple stacked C gap with a 50 tech backer, 6 tech end and a 9 tech end.. They did a really good job of adjusting to our adjustments... we really had to over play things to take them away making us weak in another area... We figure if we can slant and play fast we can get a stop or two a game... our offense is VERY potent with 4 great receivers and a really good QB... we should be able to out score most teams we face... We ourselves happened to allow them to recover 2 onside kicks themselves the other night... that gave them the extra possessions they needed to win by 7. Why do you have so many different defensive schemes when your tackling isn't the best? |
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kyle
Sophomore Member
Posts: 200
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Post by kyle on Sept 30, 2012 12:50:40 GMT -6
You should work on tackling then. As far as onside kicking it... I've seen a pretty neat graph that shows how the number of average points decrease when an offense starts farther away from the end zone. At 25 yards the average offense scores 2 points. At 50 yards the average points are about 3.5. In other words, if you kick it deep 3.5 times, the offense will score once. If you onside kick it 2 times, the offense will score on you once. Another {censored} statistic I've heard is that you can recover about 1/3 onside kicks. And if you do that, you'll be on the 50, which gives you 3.5 points. So that means that even though they will score every 2 times they touch it, you will touch it once per 3 kicks. So take 1/3 of 3.5 and subtract it from 3.5 to equal 2.3 points. So the points you gain from kicking it deep are .3 points per kick. Also, that doesn't factor in the times that the return man took it in for a TD... and it doesn't factor in the fact that all of this was based off some college football blogs that I read some time. These stats ignore some huge key points. First, those are average stats. Average defenses are giving up 20 points a game not 50. Huge difference. Second and most important, I doubt that if they kick deep the other team will now magically start at the 25. They can return kicks to the 35, 50, and take them all the way. An onside kick will at least limit them to the 50 to 40 or so. Many times we have considered a suprise onside kick or deep kick on a specific situation. Many of those times the teams have run it back past the 45. We always say, "should have onside kicked." LOL They have to be true. I read them from various football blogs. |
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Post by airraider on Sept 30, 2012 12:53:59 GMT -6
These stats ignore some huge key points. First, those are average stats. Average defenses are giving up 20 points a game not 50. Huge difference. Second and most important, I doubt that if they kick deep the other team will now magically start at the 25. They can return kicks to the 35, 50, and take them all the way. An onside kick will at least limit them to the 50 to 40 or so. Many times we have considered a suprise onside kick or deep kick on a specific situation. Many of those times the teams have run it back past the 45. We always say, "should have onside kicked." LOL They have to be true. I read them from various football blogs. We dont... we are a base 33 team who will get into a 50 front (bear) Friday we were trying to just find a way to stop what they were doing... so we were drawing stuff up in the dirt more or less.. Tackling is not the problem... we are not missing many tackles... we are getting blocked and blocked big because we are smaller than the ones blocking us... We work on coming down hill with our backers... but they are still going lateral and not down hill.. |
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kyle
Sophomore Member
Posts: 200
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Post by kyle on Sept 30, 2012 13:02:20 GMT -6
We work on coming down hill with our backers... but they are still going lateral and not down hill.. Well that's a problem too. Drawing stuff up in the dirt probably isn't a good idea either. |
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Post by airraider on Sept 30, 2012 13:48:21 GMT -6
We work on coming down hill with our backers... but they are still going lateral and not down hill.. Well that's a problem too. Drawing stuff up in the dirt probably isn't a good idea either. We it was actually on the board at halftime... since they scored on all 5 first half drives... I am really not asking how to fix our defense... its one of those jimmy vs joes thing... my question was about the onside kicking everytime. |
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Post by Chris Clement on Sept 30, 2012 15:01:41 GMT -6
How do you have all this offensive talent and none on defense?
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Post by 4verts on Sept 30, 2012 17:03:57 GMT -6
Do it. You have an opportunity to increase your plays per game. I agree with making a team drive in high school football, because they will eventually screw up. However, with the case that people don't seem to find it an issue driving on you, I would do it. I would spend my defensive practice time focusing on creating turnovers as much as possible. You can strip the ball once or twice, and recover a kick or two, your percentages of winning will be much higher.
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Post by airraider on Sept 30, 2012 20:11:19 GMT -6
How do you have all this offensive talent and none on defense? Just have some speed at receiver and a great QB... |
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