Crossed the line

I feel there is nothing wrong in telling your players to hit the opponent hard as long as it is within the rules of the game and you are not telling them to intentionally injure another player or take cheap shots.

I think ESPN is blowing this way out of proportion. I hear youth football teams chanting war before football games. Is it war? No but its motivation for them. I always tell my h.s. players that you earn respect on the football field through violence. Sounds crazy but its true. If I where to have a pc parent hear me say that they might be offended. The real question ESPN should be asking themselves is if he was so out of line, rogue, why didn't one saint defender complain or step up right after the speech to say this coach is way outta line? ESPN is turning into a joke. To many opinions and not enough facts, its hard to watch.

I must admit that I have tippy-toed that line at times. I've never instructed players to target an injured body part. And I've never encouraged players to deliberately injure an opposing player and put him out of the game. In fact, I consistently say I want the opposing team's best players on the field when we beat them so there's no doubt about who won the game and no excuses for why. But...

--I have tried to elevate our level of physical play by telling the players to enjoy and take advantage of the fact that they get to commit "Ballot Measure 11 crimes" on the field without punishment. Ballot Measure 11 is a law that was passed in Oregon in the 1990's by popular vote that allows juveniles to be sentenced as adults for a list of crimes.

--In games where we seem to be pulling up short of the kind of effort and hitting that is required, I have told players that I'm willing to accept a personal foul or two to get us going.

I don't think either one of those things are particularly classy or sporting.

Then there was the following situation this year: When facing D-linemen who simply drop and try to hold ground, I've always instructed O-linemen to "kick" them and move on, NOT with a Suh/Haynesworth-style stomp, but by driving their knees and feet thru and NOT trying to avoid the DL. Well, in our regular-season final game, we played a team that had a very large noseguard (6'3"+ and over 300 lbs.) who would simply fall forward and grab our center's ankles. The game was real chippy, emotions were running high, and there was a lot going on that, as a staff, we were trying hard to keep from getting us sideways. Our center kept coming off the field complaining about their NG's tactics, which I'd seen, so I just repeated my usual instructions. A little later, our center drew a couple of personal foul flags pretty close to one another and the word from the officials was that he was stepping on the opposing player, and a couple of players on the sideline told me, "Coach, you gotta watch Carr!" Watching the film later, I couldn't help chuckling AND wincing at the same time at just how much it happened. And it was somewhat comical to watch our tall, skinny, rather gangly center virtually launching himself off the back of this 300-lber on the ground to move on downfield. NOT one of my prouder coaching moments!

Finally, I can't help thinking about one of our program's favorite catch-phrase quotes that comes from our now-retired but long-time defensive coordinator who really emphasized out-hitting the opponent: "Hitting solves problems, it feels good, and it makes America strong!" We've joked about putting it on a T-shirt, knowing that it would drive the more-PC members of our faculty and administration crazy.

Trying to injure a player is wrong, trying to hurt a player is reasonable

What is the difference?!

Try explaining THAT to your parents when talking to them about the values of playing HS football.

You seriously have to be kidding.

When your son is playing you are going to be OK with opposing coaches talking to their kids about hurting him?

IMO "hurt" is a mental condition, while injured is a physical condition that makes it impossible to play, and can lead to long term repercussions.

"Hurt" means to cause pain or injury, to harm.

Unbelievable.

You can stress the physical nature of the sport - even "violent" if that's your bent - without telling your players they must try to do harm to other HS kids who are just like them, playing a game they like for the enjoyment of it.

I swear we football coaches are our own worst enemies so many times.

Agreed. However, it does bring up an interesting "logic" and semantic issue though. Barring the targeting of joint injuries like the knee, how would you truly differentiate between saying "I want us to be a physical team, hitting as hard as we can" (Knowing this will often cause pain and increase the chance of injury) and saying " I want us to HURT the other team" (knowing that to do so means to be a physical team and hit the other players as hard as possible)

Our "intent" doesn't affect the outcome. Whether someone wants to hit as hard as possible..or wants to hurt someone...doesn't affect if the person gets hurt via the hard hit delivered.

Ultimately though...the logic doesn't matter, and blb is 100% correct in that the way the message is delivered and hot it is received by others outside the football community is important.

If one of my kids gets laid out, I always tell the that they need to get the kid back before the game is over. Not trying to hurt the kid, but it's a pride thing. And if an opponent intentionally hurts or tries to one our own, everyone on the team looks to get some payback for our own. All within the rules of the game though.

Protect your own.

If you are talking morally wrong... I don't know what to say. However, if you are talking about liability and such, isn't this part of language on the sticker on the helmet :


I'm not an attorney, I didn't even stay in a Holiday Inn. But I can't imagine that would be a comfortable situation to have a court reporter read back your statement (or worse, have a player testify that was what you taught) and then hearing that warning sticker be read in court. I wouldn't have an answer, would you ?

Not at all. I think you are missing the point coach. This thread is entirely about the LANGUAGE used. It was said :

I am not passing judgement. I taught hit the QB on option every play as well. But this thread is about coaching LANGUAGE and the current environment. If something happened, and the courtroom scenario I described above happened, do you have an answer for it? I am not trying to be a jerk here. I don't think quoting Al Davis would help you out much. That is what this thread is about...LANGUAGE and public opinion. Most football people really aren't shocked or horrified about Greg Williams's language. But guess what, his career is probably over. We can bemoan, gripe, say such brilliant things as "wusification of America" "give them skirts" etc. We can put our fingers in our ears or bury our heads in the sand... but that cat still doesn't have a job in the NFL because of the public and the environment.

I also don't know if that mindset would really fly anymore. If the QB had the ball, and you were "forcing" a pitch, I could see him having to be hit hard. But if it were something like Jordan Jefferson's pitiful attempts in the BCS championship game (ie, the QB gets rid of the ball before closing in on the defender) I don't know if I would feel comfortable about drilling him in this day and age with the data we now have. I think fantom said it best in one of the threads somewhere "There is no longer a place in the game to hit someone just for the sake of hitting someone"

I still hear many highly regarded OL coaches in the NFL and NCAA talking about making contact with the hands and facemask when executing a drive block...do you think this should this be prohibited?

Exactly I'm not talking about drilling him late but it's almost impossible to play the game trying to avoid any contact with the head. Not talking leading with the head but squaring up a guy shooting the hands rolling hips through and running your feet. Your face mask will make contact can't avoid it. There are thousands of legal things wrong with lots of things that happen on a football field. Every coach in America would be locked up. The question is intent. Are you teaching a kid to intentionally try to injure an opponent.

I respectfully disagree.

If you are teaching kids to "put their facemask between the numbers" (those were YOUR words) and one of your kids suffers a catastrophic neck injury, you are going to be dead meat in a lawsuit.

If a kid suffers a serious injury, that may be unfortunate. But, if a jury or an arbitrator finds that the kid was injured while using a clearly illegal technique that was coached and reinforced by you, it is going to be impossible to explain your way out of that situation.