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Post by Coach.A on Apr 8, 2012 8:56:01 GMT -6
I agree that we need to change our coaching language to eliminate any references of initiating contact with the helmet. But for run blocking, I don't think saying "lead with the chest" is a fundamentally sound way to teach the skill. An O-Lineman doesn't want to expose his chest plate to a defender when drive blocking.
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Post by lionhart on Apr 8, 2012 9:18:18 GMT -6
if we are teaching proper tackling technique, eyes up, bull the neck....... then contact with the facemask is unavoidable. we are not teaching the player to INITIATE CONTACT WITH THE HELMET/FACEMASK, so we are not in violation of any rule. in fact, and my athletic trainer agrees with me... the SAFEST position for a players neck when tackling another player is keeping the head up and straight. when players turn their heads to either side, or lower their head, the muscles in the neck are in no position to offer support from the impact of the collision. at our school, we kep copies of every practice plan for the entire season, especially those in which we will be giving instruction on proper tackling form. hopefully it never comes down to this, but in a court of law we would have evidence that we gave proper instruction on technique.
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prossi
Sophomore Member
Posts: 108
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Post by prossi on Apr 8, 2012 10:21:32 GMT -6
Sorry was at church praying for forgiveness. Anyway I think intent is the subject. No one here or that coach at least have an issue with playing hard and being physical. But where williams went wrong was his intent on exploiting previously injuried body parts ie acl concussion. So on and so forth. I hate to tell you but if a kid suffers a sever neck injury everyone involved will be on the hook. I don't consider myself a dirty coach. I do teach my kids to be physical to attack their opponents. I've seen that hit hundreds of times high school pro college. In college and pros that tackle is praised as that's how to do it. What's worse helmet to helmet. Knee to helmet both ways for the tackler and tacklee. Just saying.
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Post by 19delta on Apr 8, 2012 10:48:19 GMT -6
if we are teaching proper tackling technique, eyes up, bull the neck....... then contact with the facemask is unavoidable. we are not teaching the player to INITIATE CONTACT WITH THE HELMET/FACEMASK, so we are not in violation of any rule. in fact, and my athletic trainer agrees with me... the SAFEST position for a players neck when tackling another player is keeping the head up and straight. when players turn their heads to either side, or lower their head, the muscles in the neck are in no position to offer support from the impact of the collision. at our school, we kep copies of every practice plan for the entire season, especially those in which we will be giving instruction on proper tackling form. hopefully it never comes down to this, but in a court of law we would have evidence that we gave proper instruction on technique. What is so hard to understand here? If you are teaching your players to "bury your facemask between the QB's numbers" (which is what another poster in this thread claims to teach his players) you ARE teaching to initiate contact with the helmet/facemask and you are CLEARLY are in violation of the rules. The rest of the crap you posted has no bearing on that simple fact. If you aren't teaching your players to lead with their helmet or facemask, then you aren't doing anything illegal or unethical. It doesn't matter what your trainer says. The rules are simple...contact cannot be initiated by the helmet of facemask. If you are teaching your players to "put your facemask between the QB's numbers", you are CLEARLY teaching an illegal technique. Simple.
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Post by 19delta on Apr 8, 2012 10:53:46 GMT -6
Sorry was at church praying for forgiveness. Anyway I think intent is the subject. No one here or that coach at least have an issue with playing hard and being physical. But where williams went wrong was his intent on exploiting previously injuried body parts ie acl concussion. So on and so forth. I hate to tell you but if a kid suffers a sever neck injury everyone involved will be on the hook. I don't consider myself a dirty coach. I do teach my kids to be physical to attack their opponents. I've seen that hit hundreds of times high school pro college. In college and pros that tackle is praised as that's how to do it. What's worse helmet to helmet. Knee to helmet both ways for the tackler and tacklee. Just saying. If you are teaching kids to "bury their facemask between the QB's numbers", God isn't going to do you much good. A good attorney, maybe...
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prossi
Sophomore Member
Posts: 108
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Post by prossi on Apr 8, 2012 11:05:22 GMT -6
You can bury your head into a offensive player and be in a perfectly safe position to hit up through the player. I'm not saying launch yourself head first. The key is being in a good position balanced square up its unavoidable that your face mask will make contact along with your chest and arms. If your going chest to chest usually that means face mask to face mask.
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Post by fantom on Apr 8, 2012 11:13:33 GMT -6
For people who complain that helmet-to-helmet rules make the game soft I think it's interesting that most of these hits would be legal today.
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Post by 19delta on Apr 8, 2012 11:18:33 GMT -6
You can bury your head into a offensive player and be in a perfectly safe position to hit up through the player. I'm not saying launch yourself head first. The key is being in a good position balanced square up its unavoidable that your face mask will make contact along with your chest and arms. If your going chest to chest usually that means face mask to face mask. But that isn't what you said initially. You said that you teach your players to bury their facemask in the qb's chest...that is clearly teaching kids to lead with their head and helmet. Now you are saying that the contact is incidental or secondary. So which is it?
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Post by blb on Apr 8, 2012 11:25:01 GMT -6
For people who complain that helmet-to-helmet rules make the game soft I think it's interesting that most of these hits would be legal today. When I see footage of Dick "Night Train" Lane's "clothesline" tackles from the '50s (before they were outlawed) I am amazed he did not break someone's neck on the field.
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prossi
Sophomore Member
Posts: 108
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Post by prossi on Apr 8, 2012 11:27:43 GMT -6
You can bury your face mask in a good hitting position. I never said launch yourself head first. If that's what you assume that well you know the old saying. I do agree launching yourself in to an opponent is dangerous for both players squaring someone up in a good tackling position with proper knee bend and hitting someone hard with your head up is good football. But the thread isn't about that it's about the things we say to kids to get them fired up and when playing hard is confused with intent to injure an opponent.
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Post by John Knight on Apr 8, 2012 13:16:35 GMT -6
Launch has nothing to do with it. Face Tackling is illegal, although it is seldom called. Just like RB hitting a defender with his head is seldom called.
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Post by John Knight on Apr 8, 2012 13:49:58 GMT -6
Very few officials call any kind of IHC, I have never seen face tackling called in my 40+ years around the game.
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Post by Chris Clement on Apr 8, 2012 14:09:44 GMT -6
Butt blocking just looks like a subset of spearing.
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Post by John Knight on Apr 8, 2012 14:36:52 GMT -6
SECTION 20 HELMET CONTACT – ILLEGAL ART. 1 . . . Illegal helmet contact is an act of initiating contact with the helmet against an opponent. There are several types of illegal helmet contact: a. Butt Blocking is an act by an offensive or defensive player who initiates contact against an opponent who is not a runner with the front of his helmet. b. Face Tackling is an act by a defensive player who initiates contact with a runner with the front of his helmet. c. Spearing is an act by an offensive or defensive player who initiates contact against any opponent with the top of his helmet.
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Post by saintrad on Apr 8, 2012 15:23:11 GMT -6
great discussion here guys, and I hope everyone here int he coaching profession is taking note of how the language and intent are integral to the public's perception of a "violent sport." I know everyone is affected by this everyday, every practice, every game and in the interest and intent of this board as being a place of learning, would any one be willing to post videos of their games, or practices to help illustrate how we should be teaching this?
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Post by blb on Apr 8, 2012 15:32:27 GMT -6
would any one be willing to post videos of their games, or practices to help illustrate how we should be teaching this? Teaching what? What do you mean by "this"?
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Post by saintrad on Apr 8, 2012 15:54:21 GMT -6
interest and intent of this board as being a place of learning, would any one be willing to post videos of their games, or practices to help illustrate how we should be teaching this? Teaching what? What do you mean by "this"? blb - I hope you are saying that in jest. A lot of coaches on here are saying we do this or we dont do that. Then show me.
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Post by blb on Apr 8, 2012 16:09:00 GMT -6
No, I'm not "saying that in jest."
There is no antecedent in your post for the pronoun "this" you used.
What exactly is it you want to be shown? Of what do you want to see video?
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Post by saintrad on Apr 8, 2012 16:23:16 GMT -6
Ok, this is a thread on tackling... then show me what you say you do. Not hard. I am always looking for better ways to run drills so that my players are safe. Why reinvent the wheel when I can learn from those that may approach the art of tackling with a better way.
Sorry, had to use language to show that intent is not always implied. Thanks for the help blb.
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Post by blb on Apr 8, 2012 16:27:53 GMT -6
I don't need to imbed (embed?) a video on here - even if I knew how - to show you how we teach tackling or blocking (which has also been a subject of the thread).
We teach both according to the rules which johnknight has posted.
If you don't believe me, frankly I don't care.
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Post by saintrad on Apr 8, 2012 16:33:37 GMT -6
ahh blb, i was asking to learn more about tackling techniques I am sorry you took it the wrong way, but I am willing to learn in order to get better.
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Post by Chris Clement on Apr 8, 2012 16:38:07 GMT -6
I don't see why we need three sub-rules. I can't see any circumstance where you can initiate contact with the helmet not covered under those rules, so why don't we rewrite the rule "no initiating contact with any part of the helmet." a slimmer rule book would be easier to understand an follow.
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Post by John Knight on Apr 8, 2012 17:00:06 GMT -6
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Post by saintrad on Apr 8, 2012 17:03:05 GMT -6
Thanks John, great article. That is the way my HC used to teach me so I am working on the same lines. Eyes up. Appreciate the help coach.
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Post by 19delta on Apr 8, 2012 17:03:53 GMT -6
ahh blb, i was asking to learn more about tackling techniques I am sorry you took it the wrong way, but I am willing to learn in order to get better. If you want to learn more about tackling techniques, then start a new thread. That is not what this thread is about.
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Post by saintrad on Apr 8, 2012 17:05:48 GMT -6
Thanks John, great article. That is the way my HC used to teach me so I am working on the same lines. Eyes up. Appreciate the help coach.
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Post by hback41 on Apr 8, 2012 17:08:09 GMT -6
I am all for making this safer. I have spinal issue from crashing into guys. Went to a new doctor and he asked if I had ever been in a serious auto accident. Nope. Just played football.
Working with blocking, I teach the players to lead with their hands and punch. We talk about hand placement. However, the facemask eventually ends up making contact. We attempted to use the flipper technique a few years ago but it did not really catch on with our kids. Probably because we as coaches did not get well enough acquainted with it.
How are people teaching a drive block in a way that completely keeps the facemask away from the defender's body? Funny thing is that the guys on our team who lead with their head miss more tackles and blocks than those who do not lead with their head.
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Post by saintrad on Apr 8, 2012 17:11:46 GMT -6
I am going to have to disagree slightly with you 19D, the issue of teaching our players the correct way to tackle is exactly what this thread is about. If a coach has something that can help all coaches learn the proper language and intent then this is the proper forum. Coach Knight had some great videos that go a long way towards defending the proper techniques as it applies to the rules.
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Post by hback41 on Apr 8, 2012 18:33:00 GMT -6
Thanks for the videos.
The nature of the thread did morph as it went on.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using ProBoards
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