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Post by spreadattack on Jan 15, 2008 16:36:37 GMT -6
So Chow got fired: sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3197683To keep this from being footballscoop.com, any analysis on what the issues were? Was his offense not sophisticated enough for the Pros? Did he fail to develop VY? Is that his fault as an OC? If you were in his shoes would you have done anything differently? I know Darin has his views on VY from a mechanics perspective. In my view I thought Chow did a lot of good things with the run game and improving Vince in the pass game. I thought his reads improved. With him things take time, especially with the mechanics/accuracy issues. Not totally sure what would have been the superior approach there for him to do.
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Post by Yash on Jan 15, 2008 16:57:59 GMT -6
I think he got fired becuase his offense doesn't fit Vince Young. they drafted Young when Chow wanted Leinart. from and X and O's standpoint Chow has a drop back system and VY isn't a dropback QB so square peg, round hole.
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Post by dg1694 on Jan 15, 2008 17:03:14 GMT -6
Scheme-wise, I don't think there was a problem. Norm is a very good coach and can adjust accordingly. IMO, the problem was that they have the worst WRs in the NFL.
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Post by hemlock on Jan 15, 2008 17:24:44 GMT -6
This was a management decision. I have contacts who have worked with Chow and for the past two years they have suggested in passing that their were problems. Chow was not allowed in the war room on draft day because he essentially sold Fisher before on his argument against VY; Reese wanted Young and so did Bud Adams.
It has absolutely nothing to do with schemes. Word is that VY has a very slow learning curve and is not a particularly apt pupil. People that I have spoken to from UT have told me that he lack fluid intellegance; that is, he can memorize a play in one formation, but if you change the formation or personnel and run the same play he sees it as a different play. He does not understand concepts that underpin route packages; Chow's entire system is premised upon concepts. At UT he had a very simple A-B read off of a single defender to a pre-determined side. Chow's system is predicated upon reading triangles - some times progression of the triangle changes based coverage, as we all know. I've also heard that Chow tried to work with VY"s mechanics, but was essentially told to that alone. In a previous thread I passed along another coach's comments about VY"s mechanics and how difficult they would be to iron out. He told me that to do it properly it would probably take about two years. Titans want results now, but the problem is that for every shallow or flare VY completes, he misses the next to because his footwork is absolutely dreadful. If you read into Chow's comments, he noted that regardless of who his successor is it will take time to fix what is wrong and that it will require a lot of paitience.
Herein lies the problem of drafting athletes like VY. Remember that Michael Vick got three very good QB coaches, including Jack Burns, fired in Atlanta. VY is a coach killer. Frankly, if I had been Chow I would have resigned the minute the drafted him. Sure there is a lot to like about him, but there have always been a lot of disturbing things about him. I asked Greg Davis at the the National Coaches Convention how much time VY spent in the film room - he smiled and changed the subject. I asked Mike Leach how much time Graham Harrel spends watching film - at the football complex before some of the coaches. Guess who I want feeding my kids?
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Post by deaux68 on Jan 15, 2008 19:52:26 GMT -6
I don't think he was given the resources to succed, including QB.
VY is a great talent, but it's been said on here before he doesn't seem coachable nor does he seem like a good fit for Coach Chow.
Secondly, the Titans have looked the same on offense for 10 years now. They are going to run the football and play to their defense. I don't think he was given free reign.
I'll be happy to see him back in college.
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Post by theprez98 on Jan 15, 2008 20:12:42 GMT -6
Norm Chow shouldn't have to wait long to get a new job.
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Post by airattack on Jan 15, 2008 23:29:40 GMT -6
Where does he go now? UCLA as OC or UH as Head Coach! IMO he is the best offensive mind in football. Look at his track record in college. I'm sure he will land on his feet where ever he goes.
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Post by CVBears on Jan 16, 2008 1:20:49 GMT -6
So what part of the system is broken here? This isn't the case of the parents (fans) complaining so much that the administration (front office) fire the head coach. Otherwise, Jeff Fisher would be gone. Or is it something else? If Fisher was hired by Jerry Jones, he would be gone a long time ago. Barry won a superbowl and got fired. Fisher took his team to the superbowl a long time ago and hasn't done much since. Yet the front office still supports him. What was going on that led Chow to be the fall guy in this scenario? Was it because he didn't correct VY's technique? He didn't get VY to completely grasp the offense? If he was handcuffed to actually be able to do these things, why didn't he resign? Maybe this is something that we can't compare to the high school level, but if we can, how many OC's would stick around a place where OC went to the HC and said, "I want to do everything I can (within the rules/time constraints) to develop player X for the benefit of our team" and the powers that be denying the OC's ability/request to do so?
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 16, 2008 5:15:56 GMT -6
I don't have a problem with it. It is the NFL, he was hired specifically to do something, and in the mind of the person that hired him, that was not getting done. Perhaps the expectations were too great, but so be it. NFL.
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Post by hemlock on Jan 16, 2008 6:37:33 GMT -6
I would disagree with the above statement. Chow was hired initially to implement his system. Fisher never permitted him to do that.
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Post by ccscoach on Jan 16, 2008 7:40:51 GMT -6
I think the whole deal comes down to the Bill Parcells statement " If they want you to make the dinner they ought to let you shop for the groceries" the Titans had a chance to draft Lienart and took VY when they did this Chow should have left. It would be nice to see Norm Chow get the UH job.
As for the Titans, I think they should look into implementing an offense that is more Tailor made to VY's. Maybe bring in some zone read out of the spread look. Because if Norm Chow cannot make you into a drop back passer then quit frankly no one can.
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coachdl
Sophomore Member
"Losers always whine about the their best. Winners go home and..."
Posts: 111
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Post by coachdl on Jan 16, 2008 8:59:09 GMT -6
Let's admit it, who ever succeeds Norm Chow is going to have their hands full.
The quote from Parcells is sound.
The Question remains: what kind of offense will work with VY if he can't be taught. Who says the Wonderlinc Test doesn't work!
As we saw a year or two ago with Mike Vick, the zone read will work against the worst teams in the NFL but the middle to top tier teams, they had little success. That offense is an O.K. change of pace in the NFL but it certainly could not be your base package. The defense is simply too fast.
Sprint passes? Rolls?
What?
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Post by utchuckd on Jan 16, 2008 9:53:17 GMT -6
Word is they are going after Mike Heimerdinger. To make this topical instead of gossipy Dinger was the OC for the Titans for 5 years (00-04 roughly) with Steve McNair. His style/offense is supposedly more suited to VY than what Chow wanted to run, and he's had experience with a 'mobile/athletic' QB in McNair.
Editorial: I've heard Dinger left the Titans because of the GM at the time, who is no longer there. Since the GM is no longer there Fisher may be going after someone he is familiar with and he thinks will come back to Nashville now. Just a guess tho.
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Post by airman on Jan 16, 2008 15:23:29 GMT -6
the best years tenn. titans were more like the old washington redskins. oneback, two wr, 1 te and frank wychek as the h-back. they ran the heck out of eddie geogre, used playaction, boots and limited dropback passing attack.
dinger is a true oneback guy.
norman chow wants very smart players. he had a whole lot of this at BYU. BYU could have saved a lot of time had they just hired Norm instead of the crowton era.
IMO, VY would make a nice kellen winslow style h back.
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Post by hemlock on Jan 16, 2008 16:30:27 GMT -6
I think that for coaches this should serve as a lesson. When hiring a coordinator, particularly on the offensive side of the ball, look at his past history. That is to say, look at where and with what type of kids did he have success with. I think that responded viscerally to Chow's firing, because, although did not get fired, I was in a similar type of a situation. This was also my fault because I accepted the job and should have known better. During my career, I had always worked with smart, overachieving type kids at both the college and high school level. All the sudden I entered an arena with an entirely different culture. Yes, the kids were more gifted physically, but they neither smart nor driven. If you look at Chow's history, you see that he has coached smart kids at every place. All of his QBs were students of the game first. Fisher should have taken this into consideration when he was thinking about hiring Chow and later when drafting VY. The question he should have asked is can his approach to the game (not just in terms of Xs and Os, but in terms of people) work with the guy that my franchise is committed to.
As one poster noted, I think that the Titans will spend the next five years trying to make Young a consistent QB and will most likely fail.
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Post by tye2021 on Jan 16, 2008 16:54:32 GMT -6
I am not close to this situation so everything stated below is my opinion. I have know facts to support it. I only used things I've heard or read in sports news to formulate MY opinion!!!! Please keep this in mind while reading this post. "VY is not a dropback passer....", "Norman Chow is a dropback passing coach......" Neither was Donovan McNab but look at was he has been able to accomplish with weak WRs. I can't put 100% of the blame on VY. At least 35% of the blame has to be applied to every coach he's had including Jeff Fisher and the Titan organization. We all know that there are some coaches out their that will let thiings go with out correcting them, or will quit simply call plays and as long as the player makes positive yards (especially big gains) they just let it go. In other words calling a bootleg pass and as long as he gains 25 yards or more or scores they don't address the fact that he missed the wide open WR that he (the coach) wanted to get the ball to take advantage of a player or defense. (And you best beleive the DC saw it and the next time its run, it will not be their.) The FRESHMAN Qb VY was not successful at reading coverages so the Texas staff decided that as a sophmor to give him ONE read. A to B to RUN. On some plays they didn't give him any reads at all. He is such a gifted athlete that they, just like his HS coaches JR high or youth coaches PROBABLY Did, relied on his athletic ability to make plays instead of coaching or TEACHING him how to play QB. They in affect left him ill prepared to play the QB position. The other 65% is on VY. YOU MUST put in the time it takes to develope those skills neccessary to be successful at the QB position. HE needs to make the decision to improve his mechanics. HE needs to make the decision to get better at reading defenses. HE needs to be the one to decide to get better at running an OFFENSE and not just running the play called. He needs to learn how to manage the game. Don't just run the play without an understanding of how the play is designed to attack a defense. Know the situation you are in....down and distance, play clock, game clock, scoreboard, personnel packages not just the offense but also defense you are facing, etc.... be an extension of your coach/oc, not just another player. In reference to Norm Chow, I am sure he has done everything he can to teach VY how to be a QB. And if he believes it is going to take patience to get him there, the Titans are fooling themselves if they think its going to happen over night. Just because they were able to do it defensively the QB is a different animal all together! He really is one of the best OC in football and it is a DISGRACE that he hasn't been able to land HC job on any level with his resume!!!!!
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 16, 2008 17:25:05 GMT -6
I would disagree with the above statement. Chow was hired initially to implement his system. Fisher never permitted him to do that. He was hired to do what the HC told him. He serves at the pleasure of the HC. Thats the deal, and that is what he knew he was getting into. Excellent points about HC's and the considerations they need to make to hire assts.
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Post by brophy on Jan 16, 2008 17:38:59 GMT -6
He was hired to do what the HC told him. He serves at the pleasure of the HC. Thats the deal, and that is what he knew he was getting into. Excellent points about HC's and the considerations they need to make to hire assts. If thats the case, then the HC made an extremely poor decision. You don't hire a guy as esteemed as Chow to run "something else", anymore than you would hire Tony Dungy to run a 46.
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Post by theprez98 on Jan 16, 2008 17:56:13 GMT -6
He was hired to do what the HC told him. He serves at the pleasure of the HC. Thats the deal, and that is what he knew he was getting into. Excellent points about HC's and the considerations they need to make to hire assts. If thats the case, then the HC made an extremely poor decision. You don't hire a guy as esteemed as Chow to run "something else", anymore than you would hire Tony Dungy to run a 46. Exactly!
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 16, 2008 18:33:32 GMT -6
He was hired to do what the HC told him. He serves at the pleasure of the HC. Thats the deal, and that is what he knew he was getting into. Excellent points about HC's and the considerations they need to make to hire assts. If thats the case, then the HC made an extremely poor decision. You don't hire a guy as esteemed as Chow to run "something else", anymore than you would hire Tony Dungy to run a 46. And isn't this just rectifying the poor decision?
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Post by brophy on Jan 16, 2008 18:50:10 GMT -6
If thats the case, then the HC made an extremely poor decision. You don't hire a guy as esteemed as Chow to run "something else", anymore than you would hire Tony Dungy to run a 46. And isn't this just rectifying the poor decision? Do you really believe Jeff Fisher is that ignorant? You don't go after Mike Martz....you don't recruit Mike Martz to come be your OC. "Mike! Mike! We need you man....man I am so glad you are here! I can't wait! I am really looking forward to our team being a SMASH-MOUTH POWER RUNNING TEAM now that you are here, Mike!" WTF? I would assume Fisher had Chow FIRED (not resigned) was so he could honor the financial obligation to his contract and afford Chow an opportunity to pursue a HC opportunity in the many DI positions. Chow's (puzzled) comments are distressing, but I can't fault Fischer for just calling it a day and realizing Chow / Young isn't the best fit .
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Post by coachdawhip on Jan 16, 2008 20:12:03 GMT -6
I'm sorry VY and MV are very good players on the NFL level.
I do agree Chow shouldn't have ever been hired because of the choice to draft VY and plus Tenn. does have horrible WR's.
Leinhart hasn't put the world on fire either.
systems make QB's and QB's fit in systems, fine the right one for you or find a new job, point blank.
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Post by phantom on Jan 16, 2008 21:00:22 GMT -6
They used to say that it took five years for a QB to be ready in the NFL. On the one hand that was the axiom when QBs called their own plays. On the other hand offenses are much more complex today. I don't know if five years is right but I do believe that you need more than two years to evaluate a QB.
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Post by brophy on Jan 16, 2008 21:00:24 GMT -6
I'm sorry VY and MV are very good players on the NFL level. I do agree Chow shouldn't have ever been hired because of the choice to draft VY and plus Tenn. does have horrible WR's. Leinhart hasn't put the world on fire either. systems make QB's and QB's fit in systems, fine the right one for you or find a new job, point blank. Not so fast, my friend. I think you have to put this in perspective (and it gives us a real good look at influence within "programs"). Chow, in 2005, was the hottest offensive mind for the past three seasons. His system was viewed by most as face-melting. Chow gets swooped up by Tennessee in early 2005. McNair was still on the team and already had one foot out the door. Bill Volek and Matt Mauck are on the roster. If we remember history at all there, the #1 pick was a "lock". 1. Houston - REGGIE BUSH (there is no other pick...........right?) 2. New Orleans - D'Brickashaw Ferguson or AJ Hawk 3. Tennessee - Leinart or Ferguson.... Vince Young was considered by many to fall past the top 5, maybe until the 15th selection. He had too many question marks to be drafted so high. Leinart's "slip" was seen as a major shock on draft day (thats why it was a 'story'). Chow (and the "BYU" approach) was never about slinging it deep, it was premised (as all "WCO" teams) on EFFICIENT distribution of the ball. The quarterbacks he had weren't always spectacular, but the beauty of his "greats" was how EFFICIENT Chow made them. Outside of USC, Chow's QBs have never had the luxury of fantastic receivers (unless you consider Jericho Cotchery a superstar). You do not become an efficient QB without knowing your choices / reads / check downs. Philip Rivers was amazing at commanding utilizing the backs (as well as Palmer and Leinart). You didn't have to be a world-beater at QB, just a guy who was responsible, mature, and effective. THAT was what Chow was known for - THAT is why they brought him in. If the 'rumors' are true about management getting involved to bring in Young, well, who is really to 'blame' in all that?
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Post by spos21ram on Jan 16, 2008 21:47:33 GMT -6
I'm sorry VY and MV are very good players on the NFL level. I do agree Chow shouldn't have ever been hired because of the choice to draft VY and plus Tenn. does have horrible WR's. Leinhart hasn't put the world on fire either. systems make QB's and QB's fit in systems, fine the right one for you or find a new job, point blank. I Have to disagree with the first statement...well half of it. Mike Vick was good NFL QB. Not great, just good. He was a great College QB. Young was a great college QB and in my opinion is a below average pro QB AT THIS TIME. He has plenty of time to develop into a good-great QB but will he put in the effort?
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Post by hemlock on Jan 17, 2008 6:27:56 GMT -6
I would disagree about the initial statement regarding Vick and Young. Vick was never a particularly good QB in either the pros or college. In the pros he was a spectacularly inefficient QB who demonstrated a extremely poor command of the offense. In college, and I coached against VT when he played, he was a spectacular athlete, but not really a QB. I don't having one read, the boundary X at that, playing the position.
The same goes for Young.
One poster wrote that he believes that if Tebow does not make it in the NFL that that would spell the end of the spread in college. Not true. I think most look at Tebow now and see that he will have an uphill climb at the next level. Myer and Dan Mullen will work more with him than Mack Brown and Greg Davis did with young at UT and certainly more than Beamer and Ricky Bustle did with Vick at VT, but they will try to turn him into something that he is not. Tebow will never be Graham Harrel. Not because he is not bright, but because it is just not in his blood.
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Post by airman on Jan 17, 2008 12:52:46 GMT -6
last time I checked it was not the duty of college coaches to prepare their qbs to win games at the nfl level. there duty is to win games at their university. so if VY can only do a A to B read, that is what we go with.
the nfl has become a nonfundamental league. they spend their time on creating matchups so there is a expectation that every kid coming out of college is fundmenatlly sound. clearly this is not the case.
the classic dropback passers is sort of an exception to the rule now in college football. if I were a dropback passer I would be with bobby petrino at ark.
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Post by dsqa on Jan 17, 2008 14:02:37 GMT -6
I agree that this is simply a "No-fit" situation between Chow and Young, and Fisher has to make a call. It is on him to lead and decide what MUST be done to rectify the pressure on VY because of Chow's system. Internally, it doesn't strike me as a hard thing to do. Your star is struggling with the system. Find him one better suited to his skill set. Give Norm Chow an out that gets him paid, knowing he will land on his feet. This will always be about the players, not the coach.
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Post by ccscoach on Jan 17, 2008 14:10:40 GMT -6
dsqa
with what you have said what system best fits guys like VY and MV???
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Post by brophy on Jan 17, 2008 14:27:03 GMT -6
dsqa with what you have said what system best fits guys like VY and MV??? I'm not dsqa or within a breath of his caliber, but IMWO, the same 'system' that was used with Mike Vick / Joey Hamilton (Ga Tech).... Heavy IZ/OZ.....with an emphasis on QB boot action. Vick (& Co.) torn the hell out of the NFL when Alex Gibbs was in ATL. This set him up to become a much more efficient passer as well (eliminating 1/2 - 3/4 of the field for him to read as well)...... Then, after dominating the rushing stats for 3 years, Vick publicly complains that they "run the ball too much" and wants to prove he is a drop-back passer. But then again, it comes back to a chicken-and-the-egg argument, because what do you do with a quarterback that refuses to take the mantle of leadership and responsibility to improve? When you have an athlete (could be ANY athlete) that is content in their position and refuses to improve (out of pride)....you have essentially capped whatever possibilities are out there. Could Vick have become the greatest QB of all-time? It was possible, but his biggest enemy was himself. The scenario presented above was an illustration of where they could be successful. The 'scheme' wasn't what would make them successful, merely the avenue in which you could diminish their liabilities at the position (sadly). What scheme best fits a cornerback that cannot cover, backpedal, or tackle well (but is a 'play maker')? It is the same argument (IMO). The QB is a position of ball administration - you have to make smart, responsible decisions with the ball. Mechanics are the delivery method. If you can't make good decisions, and/or can't consistently deliver the football....I really think, from a QUARTERBACK perspective, you are really limited in what you ACTUALLY can do. How many different kind of sandwiches can you really make if your only ingredients are peanut butter & jelly?
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