|
Post by hemlock on Jan 17, 2008 19:20:49 GMT -6
All the points here are good. I think that collectively we have managed to make this a solid football discussion that is relevant to coaches and not just a piece of gossip.
The problem is that for people like Vick and Young what we seemingly (collectively as coaches) are avoiding the true crux of the matter. It's really not about leadership, but ability, that is to say, intellectual ability. Yes, Vick had horrible leadership qualities, but the real problem was between his ears. Young actually has charisma and the desire to be a leader and an overall good guy, but the same problem applies - he simply is not the brightest bulb in the box. Does that mean that with HARD work and determination he cannot master his craft? Of course not. I had a dreadfully low SAT & GRE score and I now teach at UW-Madison. I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but I burn the midnight oil. Will a guy like Young or Vick do such a thing when people have acknowledged in the past is good enough to win with? Probably not. This is why I would never have banked my Franchise on him, let alone recruit him as a QB in college. If I have to teach you that it is your responsibility to be in the film room every morning at 5:30 AM there is something fundamentally wrong with you. I know for a fact that more than anything else this is what drove Norm Chow up the wall with VY. Unlike his other QBs, Chow, from what I've been told, had to actually explain to Young that it was his responsibility to in effect be a coach on the field. That's especially disturbing.
In the NFL I don't think that a staff should have to resort to an offense predicated upon IZ/OZ in order to set up the boot/waggle so that you can shrink the field for the QB. The fact that in his one start Kevin Kolb looked more impressive in the pocket in less than one year than VY does tells me something about the latter's approach to the game. Consequently, there is no offense for such an individual.
|
|
|
Post by coachdawhip on Jan 17, 2008 19:26:07 GMT -6
brophy said it all.
If you put Vick or VY in a zone system i.e., the broncos or a heavy play-action system see the falcons under Mike Vick and even look at Eli lately they can succeed.
Are they Peyton or Brady, no but they cna be successful.
And to me successful means getting your team in the playoffs and bonus games.
How good was Leinhart again this year?
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Jan 18, 2008 0:31:04 GMT -6
I think several key issues have been brought up here
1) Not a coaches job to develop a player "for the next level" (do you hear us parents???) 2) Because of #1, success at one level does not necessarily translate to success at another. Often coaches will accentuate the strengths of an athlete, and hide the weakness by not asking him to do certain things. Apparently in the NFL, this does not work.
3) Not all players mesh well with all coaching systems and styles. In the NFL, the players stay, the coaches go.
|
|
|
Post by Coach Huey on Jan 19, 2008 9:50:20 GMT -6
... because 95 pct of the qbs playing on sunday give their team NO chance to play on superbowl sunday... EVER. Sure about 95% ?? So, by those statistics, 31.4 teams have no chance at making the Super Bowl. That means that there are less than 2 QB's in the league right now that can play for the title. (1.6 to be exact by your numbers). Does this number change each year? Because only 1 team has been to more than 1 Super Bowl since the beginning of the 2000 season. Which means there have been quite a few QB's that have played in the title game. Who's in the league now that does give their team a chance? Manning? Brady? Favre? Rothliesberger? What about the 8 different QB's that have taken their team to the Super Bowl in the last 5 years? 7 are still in the league. Sure about 95% ??
|
|
|
Post by midlineqb on Jan 19, 2008 17:46:32 GMT -6
Vince Young's poor mechanics will put him right there with Michael Vick in a few years. Right now he's young, he's big and he's fast. But his speed will diminish, but the defense's speed will not and when that happens, he will either go the way of McNabb and learn to be a pocket passer, or he will go the way of Vick. of course there are the "if this" or "if that"....if my aunt had a set of nuts she would be my uncle. The facts are that they are not in those systems. It sucks for Norm Chow, and it's going to be bad for everyone else who coaches this kid. Are you saying that Vince Young is going to end up in prison like Michael Vick? I don't think so.
|
|
|
Post by brophy on Jan 20, 2008 7:00:55 GMT -6
"THERE"
seriously - do you guys have your GED's yet?
|
|
|
Post by raiderpirates on Jan 20, 2008 14:01:47 GMT -6
Most teams who make the playoffs have two quality quarterbacks that can either start or play good stretches of games.
The very good teams don't need to rely on that kind of depth, but then again that simply adheres to the fact that teams who have less injuries tend to win more games, from a statitical standpoint.
It's a team sport, but the fact remains that leadership positions require people who set an example worthy of emulation by their peers.
Chow was actually quite successful for what he had to work with, and a QB who had Nine TD and 16 INT with a game or two left to play in a season. Less than 10 TD passes in well over ten games?
Norm Chow's name and experience will garner him good offers. Let's hope he gets a prime position out there in the offseason phase of football.
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on Jan 20, 2008 15:50:12 GMT -6
My 2 cents;
I agree with those guys that feel it came down to Vince Young or Norm Chow. I obviously don't know how much more complicated Chow's system is compared to the rest of the NFL, but it looked like it was too much for Vince Young.
Lets face it folks; Vince Young isn't a bright guy, PERIOD. Now, that statement comes from one simple fact; the dude got a 6 on the Wonderlic personnel test....The Wonderlic test isn't that tough; it's no where near as difficult as an college entrance exam.
|
|
|
Post by raiderpirates on Jan 20, 2008 16:50:52 GMT -6
Ashamed too, the WCO is designed for uptempo attacks, aggression and tempo are great features to have, add a mobile QB and it's possible to make it become great.
A quick release is preffered to arm strength as well. Running Qb should do very well in those attacks. As the defense peels people off in coverage(sets up a QB run) or to help contain a running QB(opens the underneath reads) the primary progressions are money in the bank.
The emphasis is on footwork matching your reads. Vince's feet aren't in in the game, evidence his head isn't in the game.
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on Jan 20, 2008 17:00:10 GMT -6
It is a shame that Chows gone; but he'll probably end up in a better situation anyway. Let's face it folks; if it comes down to an OC or a franchise QB, the QB wins every single time. With any luck, he'll end up with a job before the draft and makes a push for Brohm or Ryan; they'd be great fits in his attack.
I watched 5 Texas games during Young's senior year. They were successful because they were simple. Ran a lot of zone read, sprint out, and quick game from trips and trey; easy game plan, easy reads. They relied on Young's athletic ability to win them games, not his brain.
Whoever takes over the OC job needs to recognize that and make the adjustments.
|
|
|
Post by raiderpirates on Jan 20, 2008 17:10:20 GMT -6
Chow did that with TN when he could, the Titans protection and position personnel issues limited the trips, and the zone read doesn't work at the NFL level due to speed.
You have got a 50/50 shot of making the play off a zone read to commit one item, that gets shaped off situations to greater degrees on long yardage. Most teams will go for 50-50 odds on the classic line nose up slant left/right front as a way to try and neutralize run plays.
You can't make a pure zone read part of the attack because teams would love a chance to play on your side of the ball, unless you have an amazing trap and cut block front to limit their initial step.
The option to make is the sprint out pass, where you can also run, but teams run to the field markers on that and squeeze those pass windows down. Make the option effective, get the ball out quick.
Chow would limit reads to narrow increments to simplify what Young had to do. He should have progressed by this season's end to at least being able to key one player every time for every set depending on who the named route primary was.
Y flag, X flag, Z flag, etc. should have let him been able to say who he would throw to for the front you named based on their cover sets by memory. He should have been able to isolate an ILB or DB in space and secure a completion over 66% of the time.
|
|
|
Post by hemlock on Jan 21, 2008 8:06:03 GMT -6
Okay, this the last thing that I will say about this because the points been made. First, I think everybody knows that Norm Chow was named OC at UCLA. That should be interesting.
As many people have noted, the NFL is unfortunately a players' league and when you have as much money invested in one player, the coach always loses. Chow's firing reminds of how Bill Cowher fired Kevin Gilbride. Cowher hires Gilbride to whip Kordell Stewart into shape. After one season, Cowher fires Gilbride because he and Stewart clashed. Culturally, the Steelers under Cowher and the Titans with Fisher are similar organizations that both place a premium on physical talent. The Titans have a long history of drafting QBs that are not the brightest. Steve McNair is warrior, but nobody will ever confuse him with either Peyton or Brady intellectually. All jokes aside, there is a reason why he went to Alcorn State. Young's Wonderlic score should have raised some eyebrows within the organization; however, in all fairness, those test like most standardized tests measure absolutely nothing. I'm in hight education and believe me, kids with high SAT scores and grad students with high GRE results routinely are the dumbest kids in class. That said, what the Titans should have done with Young was track down faculty at UT-Austin that had him in class. That would have been most revealing.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Jan 21, 2008 8:40:41 GMT -6
Okay, this the last thing that I will say about this because the points been made. First, I think everybody knows that Norm Chow was named OC at UCLA. That should be interesting. As many people have noted, the NFL is unfortunately a players' league and when you have as much money invested in one player, the coach always loses. Chow's firing reminds of how Bill Cowher fired Kevin Gilbride. Cowher hires Gilbride to whip Kordell Stewart into shape. After one season, Cowher fires Gilbride because he and Stewart clashed. Culturally, the Steelers under Cowher and the Titans with Fisher are similar organizations that both place a premium on physical talent. The Titans have a long history of drafting QBs that are not the brightest. Steve McNair is warrior, but nobody will ever confuse him with either Peyton or Brady intellectually. All jokes aside, there is a reason why he went to Alcorn State. Young's Wonderlic score should have raised some eyebrows within the organization; however, in all fairness, those test like most standardized tests measure absolutely nothing. I'm in hight education and believe me, kids with high SAT scores and grad students with high GRE results routinely are the dumbest kids in class. That said, what the Titans should have done with Young was track down faculty at UT-Austin that had him in class. That would have been most revealing. With all due respect though, my problem with much of this line of thinking (the Norm Chow good, VY/Fisher/Titans bad) is that we consistently talk about the coaches utilizing the talents and matching scheme to talent. However, in this thread, it seems like most of the coaches are finding fault with the talent, and are fine with the Coach. I just find that a bit odd. If Norm Chow decided to take two years off ,volunteer at his local H.S team, ,install his WCO system and it flopped, would people be throwing the H.S. QB under the bus? If Steve Calande got the H.C. job of the New York Giants, would people be criticizing Eli Manning for not being able to kick out a 9 tech, or lead up on a Sam?
|
|
|
Post by brophy on Jan 21, 2008 8:54:06 GMT -6
If Steve Calande got the H.C. job of the New York Giants, would people be criticizing Eli Manning for not being able to kick out a 9 tech, or lead up on a Sam? I doubt Eli would have enough pride points to be eligible. I am really excited to see Neuheisel get a great coach to help him out.
|
|
|
Post by bulldogoption on Jan 21, 2008 14:22:40 GMT -6
"THERE" seriously - do you guys have your GED's yet? your a real jerk sometimes ................... ;D
|
|
|
Post by spreadattack on Jan 21, 2008 17:18:48 GMT -6
To tie this thread in the other one hemlock started, if I was an NFL ready QB I'd think Neuheisel/Chow at UCLA is a good place to learn the QB position.
Anyway, as people said the reality of the situation was that the front office for the Titans decided that Young was a franchise type guy, and a combination of friction and perceived lack of development will lead to a new OC. I don't think it's necessarily a terrible thing for Chow or he got hosed in particular. I mean, he wanted the challenge of trying to mold an extremely talented though flawed QB into something special: a guy who could be a successful dropback passer who has great physical skills. Young is not Einstein, but football isn't the world's most intellectually challenging game, even for NFL QBs. Now the method of learning style can be significant (what someone said about him lacking the smooth ability to visualize plays run from different formations or sets fluidly rather than seeing them as new plays).
But anyway, they brought in VY, he was never the HC nor the GM so it wasn't his call, but neither does Chow - to my mind - need some kind of constant and new evaluation on whether the guy can help develop and build QBs. If you coach for that long, with that success, and that many great QBs who did great things or simply were great with him, the fact that VY isn't Joe Montana yet means little. It doesn't mean that he can't coach QBs now nor does it mean that he shouldn't have been let go if they decided to go in a new direction. That's life and the NFL.
I also got the impression that maybe they weren't happy with Norm and Vince's relationship. Maybe VY needs to be more diligent and serious, but the NFL inevitably looks at things quite black and white, and not always entirely fairly at that. As a side note, I always wondered about the Titans/VY's low TD number: they are a solid running team and I'd imagine their goal line offense is very run-oriented, as opposed to say the Pats with Brady where they (a) trust him completely, (b) throwing the fade to Randy Moss is basically a high percentage play, and (c) spent much of the year in basically spread sets. (Not taking away from Brady's numbers, just noting that team styles can inflate/decrease the TD pass stat.)
|
|
tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
|
Post by tedseay on Jan 29, 2008 10:52:32 GMT -6
I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but I burn the midnight oil. Will a guy like Young or Vick do such a thing when people have acknowledged in the past is good enough to win with? Probably not. Give me the Will Smith-type player any day. He freely admits he isn't the most talented actor in Hollywood, but: [glow=red,2,300] He. Will. Not. Be. Outworked.[/glow]
|
|
|
Post by khalfie on Jan 29, 2008 11:07:05 GMT -6
the bears got their Despite rex grossman. the bucs did it, the ravens did it. A TEAM can get their despite their qb. Most teams DONT get their because of their qb. By my calculations, their 96 qbs in the NFL at any one sunday how many can go out and win the superbowl? And I mean have the offense put on his shoulders and win. Not "dont lose it, just manage the game", qb? Came in on this conversation late... but I am thorougly disappointed in the commentary I'm hearing... I think Liberalhater has it right... He speaks to TEAM... and both of the aforementioned "test studies", VY and MV, have been on {censored} poor teams. When the Falcons had a team around MV, they went far... when they expected MV to be the entire team, they struggled... What QB can win, when he's the entire team? Peyton? Brady? I don't think so... each have magnificent supporting cast to assist with their heroics... Questioning Vy's and MV's intellect as their downfall, is disingenious and completely a stereotypical generalization... Its not Vy's intellect that has his receivers dropping every third pass, unable to convert 3rd downs... But back to the topic as originally postulated... Norm Chow? He was a genius when in college and the USC all-stars beat up on the little sisters of the poor. Just like most geniuses... take away the talent advantage, and all of a sudden, its somebody elses fault. How great was Belicheck at Cleveland? Right!
|
|
|
Post by brophy on Jan 29, 2008 12:24:00 GMT -6
just the last piece of lint on this discussion......don't forget that Vince Young in 2007, was experiencing the Madden Curse (seriously) that has afflicted every cover boy.
So that counts as a mulligan for Chow
|
|
|
Post by dsqa on Jan 29, 2008 19:51:23 GMT -6
I have been gone, but I did enjoy this banter. Lots of great points made and I cannot improve on them, except to say that this conversation would not be in play if VY was producing at a level consistent with the expectations. He was rookie of the year last year, and this year his position coach gets fired. It just seems scapegoatish to me, but what do I know...I wasn't there. In terms of what system VY/MV they will thrive in? It appears for MV it will be the "federal penal" system for a little while, and for VY, it would appear that any system designed to reduce the field and open running lanes for him to escape is preferred. He is a great athlete, and to expect that athlete to live in the pocket is a tough sell in my opinion, at until he slows down as many have prophesied he will. Until then, leverage his mobility, cut down the field where you can, and leave some room for him to create. He isn't going to change, he doesn't have to. The home office promised him he wouldn't have to, so he doesn't. So, you bring in someone with that bent, and watch them win again - at least for a little while until defenses do what they did to Vick and force him back to the pocket. Whatever...I am trying to sound like I have watched these guys every week and know just what they need...yeah right, I'm done blabbing.
|
|