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Post by jlenwood on Mar 14, 2012 7:33:16 GMT -6
Coaches, allow me to rant. I am sick of hearing coaches go on and on about this or that player playing with heart at our school. It has been going on since the invention of sports, I am sure, but it still makes me want to puke. It seems to me that some coaches can't comprehend the fact that just because some kid is not going a hundred miles an hour, "He must not have heart".
Typical conversation with a head coach I once worked with here:
Me: John just can't cover anybody and isn't ready yet
HC: Yea, but man he plays with heart!
ME: Yes he does hustle, but he just can't cover anyone yet. He shouldn't be starting over Jimmy, who does a great job of covering.
HC: Yea....but John plays with such heart.
ME: Boom..boom...boom (my head hitting wall sound effect)
I see it all the time, kid can't catch a fly ball, but man he sure does hustle doesn't he so lets start him over a laid back kid who can catch it. Point guard sure does hustle doesn't he, oops he just dribbled another one off his foot, oops there goes another bad pass, and so on and so on.
Now don't misunderstand me, I love a kid with a desire to win and a desire to work hard, but that isn't what I am talking about. I am talking about the kid who just can't get it done, but because he/she is going a hundred miles an hour a coach thinks he must be accomplishing something.
Maybe I should try decaf. Thanks for listening.
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Post by veerbone on Mar 14, 2012 7:38:50 GMT -6
You are a results-oriented person. Nothing wrong with that.
They are a feelings-oriented person. That will get you fired.
One of my favorite quotes from a coach I know: "Potential is a coach's one-way ticket to unemployment, because if the player/team is producing, nobody talks about their potential."
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Post by groundchuck on Mar 14, 2012 7:46:17 GMT -6
You are a results-oriented person. Nothing wrong with that. They are a feelings-oriented person. That will get you fired. One of my favorite quotes from a coach I know: "Potential is a coach's one-way ticket to unemployment, because if the player/team is producing, nobody talks about their potential." My colleg coaches always talked about the word potential as being a half filled cup. Half filled cups are also half empty if you know what I mean. I like players who work hard and have potential. You got to get that guy some reps to fill up the rest of his potential. But If the other kid keeps making plays you have to keep him in there. |
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Post by John Knight on Mar 14, 2012 7:54:04 GMT -6
And he is a good kid !
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Post by coachcb on Mar 14, 2012 8:02:29 GMT -6
I had this same discussion with both my assistants this year. Our initial starting QB had all of the heart in the world but really lacks the ability to play the position. I pulled one of our TBs and gave him the starting job. The new starter wasn't anything spectacular in the "heart" department but he did what was expected of him and was light years ahead of the other kid.
I listened to them whine about "heart" and "dedication" for about 10 minutes until I told them to shut it and start thinking about getting our best kids out there.
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Post by coachcb on Mar 14, 2012 8:10:25 GMT -6
It's really hard when you have one of those kids that does everything that he is told but just does not have the physical ability to play. Unless the other six guys above him on the depth chart go down with monkey-pox. And, none of the coaches can pass as a player.
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Post by veerbone on Mar 14, 2012 8:18:11 GMT -6
Heart is a great thing. It will take you far in life IF you have any ability to go with it.
I may have the heart to be a world class physicist, but if I don't have the ability to pass Algebra, I'm probably not going to make it.
If he has heart, chances are he loves the game. Reward him with playing time if you want, but he needs to understand that just because he wants something more than someone else doesn't mean its his.
That's an important life lesson that most of our country needs to learn.
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Post by blb on Mar 14, 2012 8:23:45 GMT -6
Some of the best players I've had over the years weren't necessarily the ones I wanted to see at my front door to pick up one of my daughters. This ain't the Chess Club. So long as they follow training and practice rules, stay eligible - as my college coach said, to win at Football you need some phuckers, fighters, and wild horse riders. Buddy of mine says you need more whiskey drinkers than milk drinkers. I don't THINK he meant it literally. But knowing him... |
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Post by jlenwood on Mar 14, 2012 8:24:25 GMT -6
I always try to find a way for a "hustler" to contribute. I do believe in rewarding hard work, even if the skill set isn't there. But it might be a special teams play or two, whatever it takes to let that kid know I appreciate the effort. But it still doesn't discount ability.
Had a college coach tell me once, "I love the 5-10" QB's heart, but I will still pick the 6-2" QB with talent" Kind of stuck with me.
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Post by vmorazorback on Mar 14, 2012 9:05:38 GMT -6
Rudy! ;-)
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Post by tigerpride on Mar 14, 2012 9:25:15 GMT -6
I like the heart. Usually those guys listen to every single word out of your mouth and do everything they can to improve. They drink your "kool aide" which is best for the program. Obviously, they need a bit of talent to go along with the heart.
We have some pretty talented guys around here that listen to some of the things we say and work hard some of the time. Those guys can momentarily do some awesome things but seem to let u down somewhere along the line.
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Post by lochness on Mar 14, 2012 10:17:36 GMT -6
I guess I'm fortunate enough to have been in situations where the guys with the most "heart" HAVE been our best players from an "ability" standpoint throughout the years.
It's more rare when we have the kid with tons of ability but just doesn't care. Usually those guys are "all in or all out" types, and they quit before the first game anyway because they can't handle the rigor and discipline of the sport, nor do they take well to coaching...so they wouldn't have done what we wanted them to do anyway.
Occasionally, you get that kid (which Im sure is more what the original poster is referring to) who sells out constantly and is a "yes coach" kind of guy, but just doesn't belong on the field because he can't be competitive and / or there are too many other players who are more capable than he is. In those cases, I agree that they should not play as starters...but perhaps should be rewarded / recognized in other ways.
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Post by thehoodie on Mar 14, 2012 10:29:04 GMT -6
I think it comes down to problem solving. Obviously as coaches, we all want guys that have "heart" and are willing to do whatever is necessary for the team. But ultimately, coaching is like a puzzle, you have to put the pieces where they fit the best.
I would agree, if you have a better player to put at a given position, then that person should start/play. But IMO you HAVE to find a permanent position for your "heart" player somewhere on the field, and you have to somehow make that player important, and to make sure everyone on the team knows it as well.
Players who are motivated, naturally want to please their coaches. So if they see that as a coach you place an incredible amount of importance on hustle and effort, they will follow.
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Post by blb on Mar 14, 2012 10:30:49 GMT -6
We call those kids "Program Players" - great attitudes-effort, always there and on time, "Yes, Coach," coachable as all get out, but more heart than ability. And somebody better than them at their positions.
They'll be the first ones off the bench when the game is decided, get them in on Special Teams if they can run and hit at all, and we'll reward them any other way we can too (acknowledging-making big deal about them at banquet for example).
Life's not fair. I work hard, have a great attitude - but I'm never going to be the head coach at Ohio State, either.
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Post by Chris Clement on Mar 14, 2012 10:39:14 GMT -6
I see your point, but we seem to have the opposite problem:
Other coach (18 year old kid, DC): Look at that new guy! He's tall, lean, fast, he's going to be a great DE and terrorize the league!
Me: Umm, he plays like a total Putty-tat, and actively avoids contact. He mjight be a good punt returner. Why don't you try that kid over there at DE? He isn't the perfect size, but he actually hits someone now and then
Other coach: Nah, he's short and socially unpoular. It'd never work.
We have similar conversations about linebackers who bodycheck instead of tackle, why bthe offensive line stinks (hint: it's because you put every fat, unathletic kid there and ostracized them), running backs who I sh!t you not, have begun dancing before taking the handoff, option QB's scared to carry the ball... I need to move.
My personal policy is that the untalented heart kid doesn't start over a better, if less obsessive, kid in good standing, but he starts over a prick every time.
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smu92
Junior Member
Posts: 415
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Post by smu92 on Mar 14, 2012 11:24:55 GMT -6
My favorite quote from one of our coaches here.... "Potential is the French word for 'Aint done $h!t yet.'"
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Post by jlenwood on Mar 14, 2012 12:22:09 GMT -6
I guess it also comes down to rather or not a coach truly knows his players. We had a kid a couple of years ago that was kind of quite, but flat outworked anyone. Now, he wouldn't say crap if he had a mouthful, he wasn't a rah rah yes coach kind of player, and I think some coaches, if they didn't know him would say he doesn't play with heart.
I would rather have the kid that busts his butt, even in a quiet way and leads by example. To me that is "playing" with heart/desire.
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Post by fantom on Mar 14, 2012 12:49:45 GMT -6
I see your point, but we seem to have the opposite problem: Other coach (18 year old kid, DC): Look at that new guy! He's tall, lean, fast, he's going to be a great DE and terrorize the league! Me: Umm, he plays like a total Putty-tat, and actively avoids contact. He mjight be a good punt returner. Why don't you try that kid over there at DE? He isn't the perfect size, but he actually hits someone now and then Other coach: Nah, he's short and socially unpoular. It'd never work. Socially unpopular? Man, that's just what I'm looking for in a DL. |
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Post by Chris Clement on Mar 14, 2012 12:59:24 GMT -6
You'd have to figure, right?
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Post by fantom on Mar 14, 2012 13:10:27 GMT -6
You'd have to figure, right? A$$hole? You bet! |
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Post by Coach JR on Mar 14, 2012 16:56:08 GMT -6
Some of the best players I've had over the years weren't necessarily the ones I wanted to see at my front door to pick up one of my daughters. This ain't the Chess Club. So long as they follow training and practice rules, stay eligible - as my college coach said, to win at Football you need some phuckers, fighters, and wild horse riders. Buddy of mine says you need more whiskey drinkers than milk drinkers. I don't THINK he meant it literally. But knowing him... Funny story I got from a bud of mine that was a GA at Auburn in the early 80s. Dye was getting recruiting reports in a meeting. One AC said something about a kid, and noted how he was an ok talent "but a good kid". Dye slammed the table so hard coffee cups went airborne, and screamed "F**k a good kid, good kids beat Vanderbilt, it takes mean sumbitches to beat Bama and Georgia.". |
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Post by 19delta on Mar 14, 2012 17:24:55 GMT -6
The Chicago Bears just picked up WR Brandon Marshall. Listening to sports talk radio today, many Bears fans were calling in complaining about Marshall because he is a bad guy. The radio host made a good point...he said he liked Marshall as a player but not as a person.
It's the same thing with "good kids" or the kids with "heart". Just because they are nice kids and hard workers does not mean they will be good football players.
Likewise, a kid can be a total d1ckhead but can just flat-out play.
It is hard to compartmentalize, especially when a kid you REALLY like as a person is just a hor$e$hit athlete.
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Post by coachbuck on Mar 14, 2012 19:35:12 GMT -6
Potential is the worst word in the english language. When you use that word you are describing a kid that is underachieving. I love the kids with heart but I dont and will not make my decision based on heart/likeability. Best kids play, period. If you do that the kids will respect you. I personally like street kids that are hard edged. You give them attention mold them and they will run through a brick wall for you. Show them you actually care about them as a person, school, family life and look out.
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Post by Coach JR on Mar 14, 2012 19:54:47 GMT -6
Potential is the worst word in the english language. When you use that word you are describing a kid that is underachieving. I love the kids with heart but I dont and will not make my decision based on heart/likeability. Best kids play, period. If you do that the kids will respect you. I personally like street kids that are hard edged. You give them attention mold them and they will run through a brick wall for you. Show them you actually care about them as a person, school, family life and look out. Potential means: "you ain't done sh*t yet". |
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Post by huthuthut on Mar 14, 2012 20:17:23 GMT -6
Ask your QB who he wants blocking for him: the kid who has the most heart OR the kid who can protect him
Who do you want doing your heart surgery: the guy who worked the hardest in med school or the best surgeon?
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Post by Coach Huey on Mar 14, 2012 20:17:50 GMT -6
So, your problem seems to be with your coaches rather than with the player. Sorry you coach with poor coaches. But, why bitch about guys that bust their ass. Work a solution, coach the coaches on how to find the best mix of players.
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Post by jlenwood on Mar 14, 2012 20:50:58 GMT -6
"So, your problem seems to be with your coaches rather than with the player".......yep
"But, why {censored} about guys that bust their {censored}"...I'm not
My post was, I love a kid who gets the most out of their ability, aka:Heart. However, that doesn't always translate to being a player.
I have no beef with the kid, just the numb nut coach. Also, it isn't just with the coaches I have been on staff with,I see it with our baseball program, our basketball program (boys & girls), and I see it (hear it) at other schools. I agree it is on the coach to make the kids better and get them in the game, but please coaches out there who say this all the time, quit putting kids in situations where they are going to fail because you think they have heart!
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Post by Coach Huey on Mar 14, 2012 21:07:28 GMT -6
"Heart " makes me puke implies something against the kid. Why not title it "the 18 coaches I know that cant properly place the right players on the field to help the team win make me puke."
How does one "fix " these coaches? Is that the point of discussion here?
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Post by fantom on Mar 14, 2012 21:21:01 GMT -6
The problem that I have with playing a kid because he has "heart" or some other intangible is when it's used to cover up favoritism.
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Post by newhope on Mar 15, 2012 6:25:13 GMT -6
You keep playing the kids with potential who don't work hard, and you'll keep getting beat in the close games and you'll wonder why you just can't quite get it done. Keep playing kids who can't do the job just because you like them as people, and you'll never get to the point where the game is on the line, you'll just get beat early and often. It's not an either-or situation. Both of those will get you beat. The successful coaches are the ones who get the kids with potential to play hard and coach up the ones who aren't great athletes until they are able to get the job done. Now, you may win on occasion just because your athletes are so much better than anyone else's, but not over the long haul.
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