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Post by blb on Mar 12, 2012 10:34:09 GMT -6
Ironic that we as coaches brag about our extensive, intensive programs (especially the Off-Season stuff) as if we're coaching in the BCS and then grumble, mumble, moan, and complain when some teenage kids don't want to play.
Not talking to or about any one specifically, just a general observation.
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Post by coachcb on Mar 12, 2012 10:48:55 GMT -6
Ironic that we as coaches brag about our extensive, intensive programs (especially the Off-Season stuff) as if we're coaching in the BCS and then grumble, mumble, moan, and complain when some teenage kids don't want to play. Not talking to or about any one specifically, just a general observation. I agree with you, coach, to an extent. Many coaches put too much on the kids and they quit. But, the reality around here is simple; you will lose if you don't run a solid off-season conditioning program. I have seen some well coached teams that always flutter around .500 because they can't get the kids in weight room during the off-season. I know of coaches that go overboard with it though; five days a week, an hour and a half a day, etc.. The kids might as well be playing another sport year round. But, I don't see why it would be such a stretch to ask the kids to come in three-four days a week for an our long workout. Or, just take weight training during the day. |
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Post by blb on Mar 12, 2012 10:59:35 GMT -6
I agree, cb.
You must do something to develop your kids in the Off-Season to be competitive.
The key, as in all things in Life, is balance.
As I have posted before, we are going to do what in my best professional judgment is the bare minimum necessary to give us a chance.
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Post by airraider on Mar 12, 2012 11:04:10 GMT -6
The sad part here is we only have 45 minutes... we lift M-W-F Bench, Clean, and Squats.. thats it.. Then on Tues and Thurs we do cone drills... plyos.. and run a little... nothing too hard, but obviously too hard for some.
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Post by coachcb on Mar 12, 2012 11:11:13 GMT -6
The best weight room attendance I have ever seen (not including athletic training period) was three days a week for just over an hour. The HC just did a simplified BFS schedule along with some SAQ and plyo work. We were completely focused on getting the kids stronger, faster and more explosive; we didn't do any hard-core /Cross Fit/Zumba/P90X conditioning that some guys think is so important. They also had weight training classes during the day and no one held it against them if they trained there.
It's a whole lot easier to chew the kids' butts when you're asking for three hours of their time a week.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2012 11:39:17 GMT -6
Football coaches running weight training or "athletic classes" is the BEST way to do it. You can completely hold them accountable, and they also get a grade for what they do. This way you make the weight room part of their regiment by basically forcing them to do it, then it becomes habit. Hard to coach at a place that doesn't accept this philosophy, b/c w/all the other things a HS kid has to do nowadays, forget getting the weight room to the top of their priority list...
Duece
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Post by fantom on Mar 12, 2012 12:44:46 GMT -6
Football coaches running weight training or "athletic classes" is the BEST way to do it. You can completely hold them accountable, and they also get a grade for what they do. This way you make the weight room part of their regiment by basically forcing them to do it, then it becomes habit. Hard to coach at a place that doesn't accept this philosophy, b/c w/all the other things a HS kid has to do nowadays, forget getting the weight room to the top of their priority list... Duece None of the teams in our league have athletics periods or a true athletic weight lifting class. Everything is after school. One thing you have to do is prioritize. You can't do anything about guys playing sports so don't worry about it. The same for a kid who has to miss occasionally for doctor's appointments or other reasons. We use the time that we have wisely. You can get kids to work hard without doing it in school or it being a full-time job. |
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Post by Chris Clement on Mar 12, 2012 12:46:11 GMT -6
So where, exactly, do we draw the line at what is "too much?"
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Post by coachcb on Mar 12, 2012 13:29:19 GMT -6
So where, exactly, do we draw the line at what is "too much?" There's all kinds of great literature out there about S&C for football and none of it is overboard. You're talking about 3-4 days a week and the workouts never go much more than an hour. Honestly, I think about my own power lifting workouts. I can get in and out of the gym in 40 minutes, easy. And, I am generally training at a higher volume than football players are. If you push the kids, they can get a great weight training session and SAQ work done quickly. But, you still see coaches basically treating the off-season as a whole new sport. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2012 15:05:04 GMT -6
Football coaches running weight training or "athletic classes" is the BEST way to do it. You can completely hold them accountable, and they also get a grade for what they do. This way you make the weight room part of their regiment by basically forcing them to do it, then it becomes habit. Hard to coach at a place that doesn't accept this philosophy, b/c w/all the other things a HS kid has to do nowadays, forget getting the weight room to the top of their priority list... Duece None of the teams in our league have athletics periods or a true athletic weight lifting class. Everything is after school. One thing you have to do is prioritize. You can't do anything about guys playing sports so don't worry about it. The same for a kid who has to miss occasionally for doctor's appointments or other reasons. We use the time that we have wisely. You can get kids to work hard without doing it in school or it being a full-time job. Would love to hear you elaborate on this... Duece |
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Post by coachcb on Mar 12, 2012 15:12:52 GMT -6
None of the teams in our league have athletics periods or a true athletic weight lifting class. Everything is after school. One thing you have to do is prioritize. You can't do anything about guys playing sports so don't worry about it. The same for a kid who has to miss occasionally for doctor's appointments or other reasons. We use the time that we have wisely. You can get kids to work hard without doing it in school or it being a full-time job. Would love to hear you elaborate on this... Duece I have only coached in one program that had an athletic weight training period. Everything we did was either before or after school. It's a screaming PITA. |
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Post by fantom on Mar 12, 2012 20:05:57 GMT -6
None of the teams in our league have athletics periods or a true athletic weight lifting class. Everything is after school. One thing you have to do is prioritize. You can't do anything about guys playing sports so don't worry about it. The same for a kid who has to miss occasionally for doctor's appointments or other reasons. We use the time that we have wisely. You can get kids to work hard without doing it in school or it being a full-time job. Would love to hear you elaborate on this... Duece Elaborate how? |
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Post by blb on Mar 13, 2012 8:04:31 GMT -6
nascar I have posted this before but will oblige.
One thing to keep in mind is every situation is different. For example, I do not work full-time in school where I coach (am retired teacher, sub there Winter-Spring).
We do not have STC classes during school day. Heck with state graduation requirements we barely have PE or any electives.
Our enrollment is 421 so we have a lot of multi-sport athletes, which we encourage.
Our state does not permit "Athletic Periods" or Spring Football.
I run after school Strength Training workouts M-W-F from Monday after Thanksgiving (state finals weekend) until school is out in June. We do NOT do "Speed Training," agility, or anything resembling conditioning at that time.
During Summer we have Conditioning workouts (including lifting) M-W-F mornings. We have three 7-on-7 sessions scheduled with other schools. We have a three-day camp (mornings only) last week in July.
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Post by fantom on Mar 13, 2012 10:24:15 GMT -6
So where, exactly, do we draw the line at what is "too much?" It varies from place to place. If it's working then I guess it's not too far. Take early morning workouts. I'm dead set against them but they seem to be working perfectly well for some guys. OK, fine. Obviously that's not "too far" there. But, you may remember that a couple of years ago there was a coach who posted a message here saying that his attendance at 6 AM workouts and asking how to improve them. Maybe that was "too far" in his situation. |
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Post by olcoach53 on Mar 13, 2012 11:48:18 GMT -6
We have a recent problem at the school I coach where kids all leave and go "lift" at the YMCA instead of with their teammates in the hs weightroom. I am not really sure how to handle this without getting upset and losing my cool.
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Post by blb on Mar 13, 2012 12:11:20 GMT -6
We have a recent problem at the school I coach where kids all leave and go "lift" at the YMCA instead of with their teammates in the hs weightroom. I am not really sure how to handle this without getting upset and losing my cool. Ask them what night the YMCA team plays in the Fall. Tell them if it's different than your team, you might come watch. |
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Post by fantom on Mar 13, 2012 12:24:26 GMT -6
We have a recent problem at the school I coach where kids all leave and go "lift" at the YMCA instead of with their teammates in the hs weightroom. I am not really sure how to handle this without getting upset and losing my cool. Who said there's anything wrong with getting upset? That's unacceptable. I would find out why they want to work out at the Y instead of with the team. I know that the real answer is that it's easier at the Y- do a couple curls, shoot some hoops, watch the Zumba class- but maybe there's something that want need to do better. I do agree with Blb, though. Go play for the Y of our team's not good enough for you. |
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Post by coachcb on Mar 13, 2012 12:33:03 GMT -6
We have a recent problem at the school I coach where kids all leave and go "lift" at the YMCA instead of with their teammates in the hs weightroom. I am not really sure how to handle this without getting upset and losing my cool. We had a group of kids once that wanted to train at the meat-head Gold's Gym three blocks away from the school.. They all decided they wanted to be bodybuilders and hanging out with steroid junkies. It solved itself when three gym rats over there were caught dealing steroids; mom and dad wouldn't let the kids go back over there. |
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Post by wingtol on Mar 13, 2012 12:36:54 GMT -6
We have a recent problem at the school I coach where kids all leave and go "lift" at the YMCA instead of with their teammates in the hs weight room. I am not really sure how to handle this without getting upset and losing my cool. When we run into these type of kids it's always good to do a "mandatory" team test day in the weight room. You will find out real quick if they are working or not. Also being embarrassed in front of your team can do wonders to get kids in to your program. Plus they will probably get their tits ripped off when the pads come on, and that is always fun to watch esp. if it's a senior YMCA All Star getting pounded by a soph who worked his butt off in the weight room all off season. |
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Post by Coach Bennett on Mar 13, 2012 13:14:40 GMT -6
I've stopped banging my head against the wall to get kids that clearly don't want to be in the weight room or on the track or on the field during the summer (or weight room in the winter) and instead have concentrated on those that are present.
About 8 years ago when we really started trying to foster summer workouts, for instance, we were lucky to have 8 kids out running patterns. I made the mistake of almost creating an "us vs. them" mentality of those that were there and those that weren't once the season started.
Since then, we've simply given all we have to those that want to be there and this in turn has yielded great results. We're a small school (~110/class) with low 30's for jv and varsity. Last summer, I'd say we had upwards of 40 kids out lifting and then running routes afterward.
We continually tell these kids that by working as hard as they are they are giving themselves an advantage when it comes to playing time. We are very upfront and tell them that the best kid plays whether they've been to our summer stuff or not.
For us, a key element is to make our workouts upbeat, challenging and fun. Even the littlest competitions at the close of each stage of our workouts have yielded great results in fostering a spirit or vibe or whatever you want to call it. Something as simple as placing a box on top of a garbage at the close of summer 7 on 7s, dividing the kids into three random groups and seeing how many times each group can knock the box off throwing a football at it has generated great enthusiasm.
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Post by nhsehs on Mar 13, 2012 22:50:43 GMT -6
I think making workouts mandatory is a no go, but creating a culture where players make it "mandatory" for other players is what the goal should be. At the Tampa Glazier Clinic a few weeks back, a very successful program's strength and conditioning coach talked about the way they do off-season workout attendance. Workouts are not mandatory, however, if a player misses a day, their "make-up workout" is three laps around the track with a 45 lb plate over their head. That tends to boost attendance a good bit.
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Post by thenewistsensation on Mar 13, 2012 23:35:13 GMT -6
I think some of this falls on admin.
where I coached the last 4 years, ALL football players had weights 3 days a week, ALL athletes had weights 3 days a week and we are in a district that does not really suppport or fight against athletics.
But we had a principal and AD that were VERY supportive of this idea of kids in the wieght room. Head coach and assistant were weights coaches and the VB coach did 1 period while they had prep.
where I am at now, kids lift in the AM before school. and we have great numbers, again 3 days a week. We run into problems when there is no school and we will have like 6-10 kids in on average. BUT all other sports do there stuff at the same time we lift so we only get the kids that are not in season.
we were very lucky though.
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Post by olcoach53 on Mar 14, 2012 8:17:00 GMT -6
Guys thanks for the responses. I like the YMCA team quote. Pretty funny.
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Post by blb on Mar 14, 2012 8:33:33 GMT -6
I like the YMCA team quote. Pretty funny. I manage to get a little wood on the ball once in awhile. |
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Post by fballcoachg on Mar 14, 2012 11:36:41 GMT -6
I think making workouts mandatory is a no go, but creating a culture where players make it "mandatory" for other players is what the goal should be. At the Tampa Glazier Clinic a few weeks back, a very successful program's strength and conditioning coach talked about the way they do off-season workout attendance. Workouts are not mandatory, however, if a player misses a day, their "make-up workout" is three laps around the track with a 45 lb plate over their head. That tends to boost attendance a good bit. I would be very interested to see if they were successful before they put this in place. If you are at a struggling or growing program with little tradition it is going to be pretty easy for those fringe kids to walk away instead of take the "makeup" and tough it out like they may do in a more established program. For us, I think the key lies somewhere in between, we are trying to build that tradition and have to bite the bullet with some older kids and cut them loose while trying to make sure our schedule is as favorable as possible while getting the work done. There is a definite fine line between not enough, just enough, and too much. |
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Post by blb on Mar 14, 2012 11:43:15 GMT -6
One of my assistants who took over when I left that school got out after eight years despite good success to go into administration full-time.
He said the main reason was he "was tired of begging kids to lift and go to camps in the Off-Season."
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Post by olcoach53 on Mar 14, 2012 12:55:44 GMT -6
I also dont want to have to beg kids to workout. I just stopped a kid in the hallway about 10 minutes ago. He was our JV tailback last year and could steal some carries on varsity this upcoming season. He also plays basketball (which he bitches about constantly and always told me he wanted to quit). Basketball season is over so what does he do?  Skips the workouts and goes to "open gym" Its a freaking joke. When I told him not to complain if he doesnt get the playing time he expects his response was "Ok I wont" |
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Post by airman on Mar 14, 2012 18:07:44 GMT -6
I also dont want to have to beg kids to workout. I just stopped a kid in the hallway about 10 minutes ago. He was our JV tailback last year and could steal some carries on varsity this upcoming season. He also plays basketball (which he bitches about constantly and always told me he wanted to quit). Basketball season is over so what does he do? Skips the workouts and goes to "open gym" Its a freaking joke. When I told him not to complain if he doesnt get the playing time he expects his response was "Ok I wont" he is a common man. best of the worst, worst of the best. |
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Post by davishfc on Mar 14, 2012 19:47:29 GMT -6
I also dont want to have to beg kids to workout. I just stopped a kid in the hallway about 10 minutes ago. He was our JV tailback last year and could steal some carries on varsity this upcoming season. He also plays basketball (which he bitches about constantly and always told me he wanted to quit). Basketball season is over so what does he do? Skips the workouts and goes to "open gym" Its a freaking joke. When I told him not to complain if he doesnt get the playing time he expects his response was "Ok I wont" Thought processes on the part of some kids are just screwed up. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2012 20:16:21 GMT -6
I also dont want to have to beg kids to workout. I just stopped a kid in the hallway about 10 minutes ago. He was our JV tailback last year and could steal some carries on varsity this upcoming season. He also plays basketball (which he bitches about constantly and always told me he wanted to quit). Basketball season is over so what does he do? Skips the workouts and goes to "open gym" Its a freaking joke. When I told him not to complain if he doesnt get the playing time he expects his response was "Ok I wont" Thought processes on the part of some kids are just screwed up. Somewhere along the line it does come from "imprinting". Survival is programmed in all of us, which in real life surviving is mediocrity...success however, must be learned and basically is NOT natural. That's the toughest job of a coach, getting mediocre individuals to embrace excellence... Duece |
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Skips the workouts and goes to "open gym" Its a freaking joke. When I told him not to complain if he doesnt get the playing time he expects his response was "Ok I wont" 