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Post by celinadefense on Jan 25, 2012 12:18:42 GMT -6
Wins at all levels even Youth Football!!!
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Post by coachtut on Jan 25, 2012 16:57:21 GMT -6
Wins at all levels even Youth Football!!! I would love to see and inside trap play or a wedge ran against you. |
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Post by coachschro on Jan 25, 2012 21:36:21 GMT -6
I definitly like a lot about the 10-1 and i'm no expert... I am a little concerned about having enough athletes to man up 4 receivers and bump and run them...
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Post by celinadefense on Jan 26, 2012 11:15:56 GMT -6
To me it is a misconception that you have to have athletes to play man. Heck if you back off of the 4.5 receiver you are allowing him to be a 4.5 guy. If you get in his face, bump him,cut him, beat him up hold,grab, push shove,jam etc.. Now you arent allowing him to be 4.5 if you are putting your body all over his. Also screws with the timong and reads of a QB, not to mention that it is pretty hard to throw the ball when you are on your back and or getting pressure from every gap.
Trap??? You cant trap the 10-1
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Post by coachdoug on Jan 26, 2012 12:09:42 GMT -6
I completely agree with the comment about playing press man - if the other team has better athletes, that's when you HAVE to play press, so they can't get off the line and use that superior athleticsm. If you have better athletes, then you can play off and use your superior athleticism to make plays. Most coaches get this completely backwards.
I have no idea why you can't trap a 10-1. I am not particularly familiar with this scheme, but it would seem to me that it would be best suited to youth, so I'm not sure why you would say it "even" is effective at the youth level. I would expect it to become less effective as players get older. To wit, I've never seen it run at the NFL level, so I guess your claim that "it wins at all levels" is not exactly accurate.
In any event, I'm sure I'm not the only guy here who is unfamiliar with the details of this defense. Why don't you enlighten us with the details of how it is run (alignments, gap responsibilities, run fits, coverage responsibilities, force responsibility, inside out pursuit responsibility, alley responsibility, gadget responsibility, boot/counter/reverse responsibility, blitzes/stunts, and typical adjustments), and why it is so effective. Thanks in advance - I always love to learn new things.
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Post by celinadefense on Jan 26, 2012 13:11:26 GMT -6
the 46 is an NFL version of the 10-1/Special. If you watched the Chicago Bears they will get in a straight 10-1 some (did it alot in their SB run in 05 or 06) Head Coach Lovie Smith the same guy that got upset in 1974 or so playing against the 10-1 when he was at Big Sandy. If you go to the general defensive thread there is a long discussion about the 10-1 scheme.
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Post by coachbigbri on Jan 26, 2012 13:37:10 GMT -6
The 10-1 is a solid youth defense. Like coachdoug said it's a man press not bump and run. Bump and run is not the same as trying keep the receivers from getting off the line.
If the defense is playing the 10-1 correctly and trained on their responsibilities, the inside trap will be stopped. Too often though, at the youth level teams are playing a particular defense and they have kids out of position or they don't know all of their responsibilities.
A quick synopsis of the 10-1 defense.........it has defensive lineman in the A and B gaps, defensive ends in contain outside, cornerbacks and outside linebackers in man coverage, and a free safety or middle linebacker in zone coverage. The key on pass plays is that the zone coverage guy is able to read the QB and know where the ball is going to be thrown. This defense is good for stopping slants and short passes. Deeper passes could be more of a problem if the receiver gets off the line pretty cleanly. But at the younger youth levels you don't have a lot of QB's that can throw the deep pass.
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Post by coachdoug on Jan 26, 2012 13:53:29 GMT -6
The 10-1 is a solid youth defense. Like coachdoug said it's a man press not bump and run. Bump and run is not the same as trying keep the receivers from getting off the line. If the defense is playing the 10-1 correctly and trained on their responsibilities, the inside trap will be stopped. Too often though, at the youth level teams are playing a particular defense and they have kids out of position or they don't know all of their responsibilities. A quick synopsis of the 10-1 defense.........it has defensive lineman in the A and B gaps, defensive ends in contain outside, cornerbacks and outside linebackers in man coverage, and a free safety or middle linebacker in zone coverage. The key on pass plays is that the zone coverage guy is able to read the QB and know where the ball is going to be thrown. This defense is good for stopping slants and short passes. Deeper passes could be more of a problem if the receiver gets off the line pretty cleanly. But at the younger youth levels you don't have a lot of QB's that can throw the deep pass. Okay, now I'm really confused. celina seemed to be saying that it's a version of the Bear 46, but what you're describing sounds like GAM. Yeah, it could be difficult to inside trap either of those, but I'm not sure why you can't do an outside trap on the next DL either on or outside the TE. I guess if you're out that far, you wouldn't normally call it trap, but I think we all know the GAM is susceptible having the DE kicked out and running off-tackle. |
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Post by celinadefense on Jan 26, 2012 20:35:45 GMT -6
10-1 and 10-1/Special are two different fronts
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Post by utchuckd on Jan 26, 2012 22:06:56 GMT -6
Where do you play your MMP guys in the 10-1? Seems like this could be problematic at the youth level.
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Post by coachbigbri on Jan 26, 2012 22:46:40 GMT -6
The 10-1 is a solid youth defense. Like coachdoug said it's a man press not bump and run. Bump and run is not the same as trying keep the receivers from getting off the line. If the defense is playing the 10-1 correctly and trained on their responsibilities, the inside trap will be stopped. Too often though, at the youth level teams are playing a particular defense and they have kids out of position or they don't know all of their responsibilities. A quick synopsis of the 10-1 defense.........it has defensive lineman in the A and B gaps, defensive ends in contain outside, cornerbacks and outside linebackers in man coverage, and a free safety or middle linebacker in zone coverage. The key on pass plays is that the zone coverage guy is able to read the QB and know where the ball is going to be thrown. This defense is good for stopping slants and short passes. Deeper passes could be more of a problem if the receiver gets off the line pretty cleanly. But at the younger youth levels you don't have a lot of QB's that can throw the deep pass. Okay, now I'm really confused. celina seemed to be saying that it's a version of the Bear 46, but what you're describing sounds like GAM. Yeah, it could be difficult to inside trap either of those, but I'm not sure why you can't do an outside trap on the next DL either on or outside the TE. I guess if you're out that far, you wouldn't normally call it trap, but I think we all know the GAM is susceptible having the DE kicked out and running off-tackle. Well the GAM pretty much came from the 10-1 and 8-2 defenses, so yeah it sounds a little bit like the GAM. By technical definition, IMO, a trap is when you pull and block inside and the counter is when you pull and block further outside. The counter and off-tackle can be a little rough to defend if your free zone defender cannot pursuit to the play and your outside linebackers don't recognize the play. If you are having that problem and not having trouble stopping the sweep and reverse, you can have your DE's use the slide technique instead. This makes it much harder for the offense to be successful at the off-tackle and counter plays. You should probably have your DE on the short side of the field use the slide technique anyway since teams are a lot less likely to run a sweep to the short side. |
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Post by coachbigbri on Jan 26, 2012 22:59:46 GMT -6
Where do you play your MMP guys in the 10-1? Seems like this could be problematic at the youth level. MPP's are problematic in any defense, IMO. With the 10-1 I would put one in at nose guard. Teach him to stay low and cover the gap as best as possible. Then rotate MPP's into the game at that position, but rotate the side of the defense he is on so the offense doesn't catch on and start running dives or blasts at them. Might even be best to move the MPP out one gap to defensive tackle every now and then if the offense is constantly running at them in their nose guard position. Personally, I try to limit the use of MPP's on the defensive side of the ball. Sometimes you have so many of them that you have no choice. But, if a MPP missing his assignment badly on defense it could result in a touchdown. If he misses his assignment badly on offense it results in 2nd down. I like putting them on offense as much as possible. Especially if you run a lot, why not put them out at flanker or a split end out wide? The defense is going to put a defender out wide on him and if he is so far off the line you only have to worry about 10 defenders now. As soon as the defense starts cheating away from him, put in a better player at the flanker position and throw a quick pass out wide. The defense probably only has to be burnt by that once to keep a defender out there the rest of the game. Putting a MPP at tight end as a decoy on passing plays where he goes out for a pass works well too, because again the defense is going to put one of their eleven guys on him. I'm a bit unorthodox as a youth football coach, at least in the league I am in. I put my best players on the offensive line. Anyone with decent or average speed and abilities can run through big holes, but even some of the best running backs will have trouble if the offensive line can't block. |
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Post by coachdoug on Jan 27, 2012 0:31:19 GMT -6
By technical definition ... I get what you're saying, but you should probably be a little more careful about making statements like that. As I'm sure you're aware, there is no such thing as a "technical defintion" of any scheme-related football terminology (there are technical definitions of rule-related terminology, though). Scheme-related terms mean whatever the coach decides they mean for his team. In fact, it's enough of a cliche around here that making the statement that "there's no universal terminology in football" will get you blasted for restating the obvious for the millionth time. |
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Post by Chris Clement on Jan 27, 2012 8:10:05 GMT -6
In a 10-1, you can have MPP's bearcrawl the A and B gaps like most youth D's. The real difference is in the other stuff, there aren't run "fits" in the traditional sense. It's very much like a GAM but you don't have such a hard "box" technique from the contain players, and you donn't have to deal with Jack Reed.
On paper, at least, a wedge would get broken up by the A gap bearcrawlers, and a trap is tough because it lets in a DL to chase the play, and the MLB is RIGHT there in the hole.
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Post by coachbigbri on Jan 27, 2012 8:58:54 GMT -6
In a 10-1, you can have MPP's bearcrawl the A and B gaps like most youth D's. The real difference is in the other stuff, there aren't run "fits" in the traditional sense. <B>It's very much like a GAM but you don't have such a hard "box" technique from the contain players</B>, and you donn't have to deal with Jack Reed. On paper, at least, a wedge would get broken up by the A gap bearcrawlers, and a trap is tough because it lets in a DL to chase the play, and the MLB is RIGHT there in the hole. I guess this kind of goes to what coachdoug was saying about the terminology, but just because you are running a GAM defense you don't have to use the box technique from the contain players. Realistically, if you think you have to run a defense exactly like the book you read about the defense then A) you are not comfortable enough with the defense to mold it to your style and B) you're probably not going to be a highly effective coach unless your players are just so talented that they outweigh the coaching issues. |
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Post by coachbigbri on Jan 27, 2012 9:03:56 GMT -6
By technical definition ... I get what you're saying, but you should probably be a little more careful about making statements like that. As I'm sure you're aware, there is no such thing as a "technical defintion" of any scheme-related football terminology (there are technical definitions of rule-related terminology, though). Scheme-related terms mean whatever the coach decides they mean for his team. In fact, it's enough of a cliche around here that making the statement that "there's no universal terminology in football" will get you blasted for restating the obvious for the millionth time. I understand what you're saying. The real reason for that is because people don't understand the correct terminology and use it the way they do because it is what they understand. It becomes "their" terminology and is acceptable to them. It becomes pretty trivial. |
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Post by celinadefense on Jan 27, 2012 12:23:40 GMT -6
Box technique by edge players? Never heard of that. Contain players in 10-1 scheme are not ever supposed to "box"
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Post by Chris Clement on Jan 27, 2012 12:30:33 GMT -6
But in the GAM they box like it's their job, which I suppose it is. What contain technique do you use for your edge guys?
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Post by celinadefense on Jan 27, 2012 12:42:06 GMT -6
GAM? is that for G.A.Moore?? Never in the 10-1 do you teach kids to "box" that just widens the running lane and allows for a clean kick out. We teach em to take blocks on with their inside shoulder keeping their outside free but never box at all. Never ever box.
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Post by coachdoug on Jan 27, 2012 12:59:14 GMT -6
GAM? is that for G.A.Moore?? Never in the 10-1 do you teach kids to "box" that just widens the running lane and allows for a clean kick out. We teach em to take blocks on with their inside shoulder keeping their outside free but never box at all. Never ever box. No, it's Gap Air Mirror - a youth specific defense designed by John Reed. It is not sound for exactly the reason you brought up - the boxing ends open up the off-tackle area, which can be further exploited with a nasty-split TE, amongst other things. |
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Post by celinadefense on Jan 27, 2012 13:03:56 GMT -6
Gotcha - Makes sense..lol.. I thought they were trying to say Box in the 10-1 and I was like NEVER EVER do we do that. Ok, im good now carry on.
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Post by coachdoug on Jan 27, 2012 13:06:16 GMT -6
the 46 is an NFL version of the 10-1/Special. If you watched the Chicago Bears they will get in a straight 10-1 some (did it alot in their SB run in 05 or 06) Head Coach Lovie Smith the same guy that got upset in 1974 or so playing against the 10-1 when he was at Big Sandy. If you go to the general defensive thread there is a long discussion about the 10-1 scheme. Are you referring to this thread: coachhuey.com/index.cgi?board=gendefense&action=display&thread=36109&page=1? Goodness, man, that's a 14-page, 400+ reply thread!! I don't have time to read all that right now, but I saw enough on the first page to get that 10-1 is a misnomer - there are 9 diagrams of the alignment on the first page, and only one shows 10 defenders on the LOS. And in the 10-1 special that is suggested as an adjustment to spread alignments, it looks like you absolutely could trap the 4is. I also see that Celina HS in Texas is one of the schools that runs this scheme - are you affiliated with that school or did you choose that username because you're a fan of the defense? Certainly G.A. Moore is a legend and I am thrilled at the opportunity to learn about his scheme. I'll try to go back and read more of that thread later. Perhaps as someone who seems to be very familiar with this scheme, you could give us a short summary here rather than forcing everyone to go spend hours digging through that enormous thread. |
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Post by celinadefense on Jan 27, 2012 13:18:21 GMT -6
Nope, not a misnomer. 10 guys within 1 yard of the LOS and one guy back..The Free Safety. You cant trap the 10-1 and it is extremely difficult to trap the Special because the two lb's are stacked right on the heels of the B-gappers. There are no shades every penetrator is in the gap. Stacked backers inside foot is leaning towards A gap. He sees a down block by Guard and he is through the a gap NOW. B-gapper on pullside redirects and gets in hip pocket of pulling guard. Neither LB is blocked. Easy to talk about trapping it but very hard to do.
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Post by Chris Clement on Jan 27, 2012 13:44:54 GMT -6
I don't know that I'd call the GAM unsound off-tackle, the LB should step up and fill the hole. Weak, certainly. It's like a square, strong along the front and sides but weak at the corners.
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Post by coachbigbri on Jan 27, 2012 14:33:26 GMT -6
I'm new here so don't really want to start arguments, but you do what you have to do to stop the offense. You teach contain, box and slide......you then use what you have to do to stop the strengths of the offense you are playing.
There is no reason you cannot use the box technique in the 10-1, in certain situations. It all depends on in-game adjustments to what is beating you. In my opinion, if you are not open to trying to make adjustments when needed, then you are not giving your best effort to the kids.
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Post by coachbigbri on Jan 27, 2012 14:36:57 GMT -6
GAM? is that for G.A.Moore?? Never in the 10-1 do you teach kids to "box" that just widens the running lane and allows for a clean kick out. We teach em to take blocks on with their inside shoulder keeping their outside free but never box at all. Never ever box. No, it's Gap Air Mirror - a youth specific defense designed by John Reed. It is not sound for exactly the reason you brought up - the boxing ends open up the off-tackle area, which can be further exploited with a nasty-split TE, amongst other things. I wouldn't call the GAM unsound because of this. You adjust to what the offense is doing. Stop boxing and use the slide technique if off-tackle is beating you. You're still using the GAM defense, you're just not boxing now. Or just slide to the short side of the field and still box on the wide side and make sure your linebackers are ready to help stop the off-tackle play. |
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Post by celinadefense on Jan 27, 2012 15:08:13 GMT -6
Nope, GAM is its own deal. 10-1 is something else entirely. Ive never even heard of the GAM. I do know in the 10-1 ya never box. It makes the edge unsound and takes away the aggressivness of the edge players. But, hey, maybe it works for the GAM and if it does keep doing it. Im just saying 10-1 scheme that is a no no
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Post by coachbigbri on Jan 27, 2012 15:38:20 GMT -6
Nope, GAM is its own deal. 10-1 is something else entirely. Ive never even heard of the GAM. I do know in the 10-1 ya never box. It makes the edge unsound and takes away the aggressivness of the edge players. But, hey, maybe it works for the GAM and if it does keep doing it. Im just saying 10-1 scheme that is a no no The GAM came from the 10-1. My guess is that you are a high school coach, and I say that because the box technique is generally a no no no matter what defensive scheme you are using. I agree, there's probably never a good time to box in the 10-1 at the high school level. But if you are talking about 7 - 12 year old kids I can definitely see a reason to go to box in certain situations. Keep in mind the style of offense you are going up against. The high school game is more similar to the youth game than college or pro, but it's still different......especially at the younger youth levels. If I only teach my ends how to slide and not box, or vice versa, would be like never teaching your offense how to take a knee late in the game instead of taking a chance on a fumble or injury.......or even not teaching your offense how to take a safety. You need to be ready for all kinds of scenarios and be ready to try what seem like unsound techniques in general if they might stop what the offense is beating you on. Sometimes you open something up that could be exploited because the offense is killing you somewhere else and you need to overplay that weakness. Doesn't mean you would even have to do it once in a season, but if you are not prepared to try it than that is the coaches fault. |
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Post by coachbigbri on Jan 27, 2012 15:50:34 GMT -6
The GAM defense is basically the 10-1 defense, but uses different terminology. The other main difference is that the GAM mirrors the offensive formation, so in an unbalanced line you don't stay in a true 10-1 formation. GA Moore invented the 10-1. Kent State used the 10-1 back in the day in college and had a lot of success with it. Jack Reed formed his GAP-8 from the 10-1 and it is pretty similar, but designed for the lower youth levels. He later changed the GAP-8 to be called the Gap-Air-Mirror, but it was just a terminology change. The actual defense stayed the same.
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Post by vince148 on Jan 30, 2012 14:11:11 GMT -6
I want to take this in a little different direction, first, because we're talking about the 10-1/10-1 special, and secondly, in regards to youth ball. In my search for info about the 10-1, I came upon a few youtube video of peewee and 6th grade Celina teams.
As I watched the videos, what I noticed the most was that the defense was not was a typically thought of as the 10-1 special. There were very noticeable differences in alignment and play.
I only bring this up because I was always under the assumption, based on what I've read here and in other places, that the reason Celina was so good at the 10-1 was because they had been playing with it throughout their careers. However, after viewing the youth video, this does not seem to be the case. While there are definitely similarities with the 10-1 and 10-1 special, there are definite differences between the high school and youth versions of the 10-1.
And really, it doesn't matter. The 6th grade team has won some 54 games with a handful of losses and 4 titles over the past several years.
Which brings me to my point, how is the 10-1 scheme modified for the youth?
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