flingt
Junior Member
"We don't care how big or strong our opponents are as long as they're human.?
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Post by flingt on Sept 20, 2011 9:36:40 GMT -6
Was having this discussion with a colleague and it is my opinion that coaches who coach at a school "until the cupboard is bare" and then leaving is cowardly. There is a school in our county that was having great success until this year, which coincidently is when the previous coach left, because of a great senior class.
After coaching 19 years I just think that it's easier to coach athletes and hate when coaches leave when when the "players" do.
That's just cowardly to me. I'm sure I will get blasted for this, but, it's just my opinion.
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Post by fantom on Sept 20, 2011 10:40:10 GMT -6
Why did he leave? What kind of job did he take? Was their success a blip at a normally average school that probably couldn't be duplicated? Did success spoil the administration to the point that he could see getting fired? Did his success lead to a better job?
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Post by blb on Sept 20, 2011 10:50:48 GMT -6
When you have been a head coach long enough you will realize that you cannot win enough to make up for all the other things that go with the job.
When it comes to the point that you cannot enjoy the relationships and coaching itself because either the headaches become too much or you cannot be competitive, it's prudent to get out.
I don't see anything cowardly in that. Why would one stay on and risk mental-physical health, to "take one for the team"?
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Post by lochness on Sept 20, 2011 11:18:58 GMT -6
It's one thing to leave because you think you're going to lose. I don't necessarily agree with that. It's another thing to leave if you know the classes coming up are not hard working, respectful kids. That I can totally sympathize with.
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Sept 20, 2011 18:35:57 GMT -6
Coaches leave for as many reasons as they join up.
Coaching football is fun, when it ceases to be fun find something else to do.
I don't mean "haha" fun, sometimes the fun is the challenge and there's not wins but you're building something. Sometimes it's in the relationships you have with certain people that you just want to stay around. It's as varied as there are personalities.
Many of us have stayed at places, that logically-we should have left, but have commitments to keep.
Many of us have left when the position we took didn't turn out like we thought. But that's life isn't it?
Sometimes you need to leave because you've taken the program as far as you can and new blood is needed.
Sometimes you need to leave because you are just plain tired.
But, since football is about people-I guess we're not perfect.
OJW
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Post by warriorofthepast on Sept 20, 2011 18:54:08 GMT -6
been coaching at a school for six years..... we have five varsity wins in those six years...... ive been called much worse than a coward!
but seriously. No one here... and I mean no one evaluates our staff on loyalty the program or for "fighting the good fight." obviously we are in an extreme situation
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flingt
Junior Member
"We don't care how big or strong our opponents are as long as they're human.?
Posts: 311
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Post by flingt on Sept 20, 2011 18:55:23 GMT -6
My point is, we as coaches are hypocrites by and large. We preach to our players about "being tough" and "sucking it up" and "discipline" and then some don't practice what we preach. Leaving a school for the sole reason of not being able to win with the talent incoming is cowardly. I am not talking about over staying your welcomce, or needing a change, or new blood coming in. I am talking about abandoning the ship just because the players who left were better than the ones you have and you just don't want to have to coach as hard, so you leave.
I hope that is clear.
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Post by fantom on Sept 20, 2011 19:06:16 GMT -6
My point is, we as coaches are hypocrites by and large. We preach to our players about "being tough" and "sucking it up" and "discipline" and then some don't practice what we preach. Leaving a school for the sole reason of not being able to win with the talent incoming is cowardly. I am not talking about over staying your welcomce, or needing a change, or new blood coming in. I am talking about abandoning the ship just because the players who left were better than the ones you have and you just don't want to have to coach as hard, so you leave. I hope that is clear. How many guys actually do that? Most guys quit for multiple reasons. Maybe that might be one reason but I doubt it's the only one. Do you know for a fact that that's the reason-the only reason-that this guy quit? Sounds like you have an axe to grind. |
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Post by blb on Sept 20, 2011 19:26:47 GMT -6
I hope this is clear:
Most coaches I have known in 37 years are not hypocrites, just human beings - like the kids.
And as the AD (a former football coach) that hired me in 1979 for my first head coaching job told me a year later - "Football is not as important to everybody as it is to you."
I am on my sixth head coaching job. I had to leave first because I was laid off as a teacher (would never have left otherwise), second to go back home, third because program and I had both gotten stagnant-couldn't do any better, fourth because I was let go due to politics, fifth because I retired as a teacher and AD had policy coach had to be in building.
In those first five we had enough success for me to be voted into our state's HOF.
I am now HFC-sub teacher because at 57 I still enjoy (need?) the relationships, the process, the competition (and frankly we can use the $$).
We have had a lot of success in the year-plus (26-5 cumulative program record even though we are smallest school in league and was a bottom feeder prior to 2010) I have had this job.
But as I posted earlier - you cannot win enough, I don't care how much you do, to overcome some of the other things that go with it.
And when those things take too much away from why you got into it in the first place and/or negatively affect the rest of your life , you are smart (not cowardly) to step aside - like I did with third head job.
At present I'm just too hard-headed or stupid to do so myself.
But I am also in the 'KMA' part of my career - "Kiss my Azz."
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Post by jlenwood on Sept 20, 2011 19:48:15 GMT -6
I know that a lot of coaches feel a calling or that what they are doing is special, and not about the money, I myself fit into that category, the reality is it is just a job.
Just I would never criticize a person for leaving a job they did not want to be at, I wouldn't criticize a coach for leaving if they didn't want to be there. Maybe he has worked his can off and knows that the reward is not worth the work he will have to do in the future. Who knows what a person thinks or how much they want to put into there job.
Is he going somewhere else to coach? Is he leaving the school, or just not coaching? A lot of questions....
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Post by coachdubyah on Sept 20, 2011 21:06:12 GMT -6
I think flingt could be on to something, because there are people that do that. Some call them cowards. Some call them smart. I just think that people have their reasons for doing things. I just don't think one should assume that Coach John Doe is leaving because the cupboard is bare. That is just something that you cannot prove.
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Post by 3rdandlong on Sept 21, 2011 1:02:46 GMT -6
flingt, I agree with you whole heartedly. Let's tell our kids to man up, but when the chips don't always fall where we please, we sometimes don't overcome the adversity we want our players to.
On a side not, however, I'll tell you that I used to think that coaching athletes was easier than coaching the non-athletes. But what I have noticed is that often the good athletes who win are disrespectful jerks while the kids who aren't as talented are very nice and respectful.
I'll make a basketball comparison. Phil Jackson is criticized because he won his championships with Kobe and Jordan, however, he had to deal with their egos and make the most positive situation possible.
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Post by coachhartley on Sept 21, 2011 1:41:21 GMT -6
My point is, we as coaches are hypocrites by and large. We preach to our players about "being tough" and "sucking it up" and "discipline" and then some don't practice what we preach. Leaving a school for the sole reason of not being able to win with the talent incoming is cowardly. I am not talking about over staying your welcomce, or needing a change, or new blood coming in. I am talking about abandoning the ship just because the players who left were better than the ones you have and you just don't want to have to coach as hard, so you leave. I hope that is clear. So if I know that I'm not able to win with the talent coming through how is it in the best interest of the program for me to stay? Isn't it better to leave befor you get everything wrong and let someone else have a try. By staying you're preventing the team from finding someone who can coach them well enough to win. Also it cna be very demanding running a top program, in 09 I was STC for my home town team and we won a national championship (in the UK), I knew before the season that it was going to be good and that it probably be a high point for the program for years. I had decided that it would be my last year whatever the result because it had become such hard work. I wasn't the only guy who felt that way and we had a lot of people retire. There are lots of reasons why coaches quit, especially after a great season or a great run. It takes a massive effort to get to the top and not having the energy to do it twice doesn't make you a coward. Stepping out of the way to let someone else do it is brave. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2011 5:27:44 GMT -6
You also have a career to think about too. If you know things are going to be sour, and you stay, it's your fault b/c YOU are responsible for YOUR team regardless of their talent level in the eyes of fans/admin. etc. YOU took the job, so YOU have to WIN regardless. If you leave on top, it will make finding another job easier as your resume looks impressive. I don't think it's cowardly at all, I think it's smart, and I'm all about working smarter, not harder.
Just got done with 3 tumultuous years as a DC at a doormat of a school (my alma mater). I don't care who goes in there, for the next several years, they are going to struggle, and they have (haven't won a game yet this season--same ol' shizz as when I was there). I should have left after year one, but I was helping a friend, and now have found myself at the bottom of the profession so to speak. My resume looks awful (3 wins in 3 years ain't good, even if you were onl.y the DC like I was), and the only job I could land was a junior high DC position. Had I made the RIGHT choice and left after year one, things would look better for me. Doesn't mean I can't still get a good job, but it doesn't look as good on my resume either. I think you have to be smart about this stuff if you plan on making a career out of coaching. I also think there are going to be times when your loyalty to the kids is going to be put to the test, but your loyalty to the kids doesn't put bread on the table either....
Duece
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Post by coachwoodall on Sept 21, 2011 7:20:07 GMT -6
As with most career moves, it is an 'all of the above' situation.
I left my first coaching job b/c I finally got a teaching job. We were awful and they continued to be awful.
Left my second job at the end of one of the best 4 year runs in school history. The team slipped back to being mediocre at best. I might have been called a coward, but I left for family reasons; a chance to get back home while my dad was dying.
Left the third job in middle/toward the end of a good run. Politics was part of it, but I stayed a year longer than I wanted because there was a transition with the HC. That last year was with a new head coach. I hadn't planned on staying, but once the old HC told me he was leaving and I didn't get the job, I felt like I could once again could make an impact by being the guy to help with the transition.
At my current gig, having stayed to longest of my 18+ year career, I once again feel the need for growth, but am balancing that with what my family needs. I have it made right here, but I could be called a coward for not 'stepping outside of my comfort zone'.
All of my moves have been about a balance between my career and my family.
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Post by wingtol on Sept 21, 2011 7:48:22 GMT -6
I don't think there is anything wrong with leaving a job where it's killing you to coach. But I do have a problem when guys can't be honest about it "I want to spend more time with my family" That line cracks me up. The program I am at now had a coach who had 3 D-1 skill kids, which in the smallest class in the state equals success, and was pounding teams keeping those guys in the whole game for two years. Lo and behold when they graduate and there isn't much to replace them off he goes to his family. Only to show up on a local college staff the next year! Then he bounces around hs ast. jobs, take a HC job leaves there after one year to grab yet another HC job tis year! I think it's better to be honest up front in those situations.
Also I have always been under the thought process of leave the program in better shape than when you showed up. Don't we always tell the kids hard work will pay off and to never give up and keep fighting? I mean I know there are some jobs that could literally kill you and guys just need to go but it just seems sometimes it's to easy for a coach to give up when all we talk about is never giving up.
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Post by coachcb on Sept 21, 2011 7:48:27 GMT -6
I am in this boat. We have a roster packed full of very athletic seniors with very little coming back next year. Now, I have been fighting tooth and nail to get numbers back up as the program has been in the toilet. But, I don't think I have it in me to spend another year trying to hold things together around here. I am going to focus on this season and then seriously re-evaluate where I'm at afterward. It's hard enough to deal with all of the issues in this community and this school while being competitive and winning.
It's just about my sanity at this point.
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Sept 21, 2011 8:04:53 GMT -6
Flingt- I do feel you though with the idea of not leaving the cupboard bare. It is our duty to leave things better than when you found it...whether it be as a coach or just a human. I think many coaches incidentally run programs into the ground by not instilling mental discipline, not stressing academics, and not developing an identity for their kids to relate to.
I could see if a guy does this at 2-3 schools as seeming like a pattern of behavior...running the well dry at each program- cowardly may not be the best word for it though. Most coaches are not smart enough (or lucky enough) to get out while they're still winning. Think Charlie Weis at ND- had 2 great years with Willingham's kids, then went 3&9 with "his junior class."
Unless we're in his shoes, have sat in on his post-season evaluations, and have dealt with his particular parent/athlete group then we have no right to say "that guy's a coward." That's really speculative.
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Post by mattyg2787 on Sept 21, 2011 17:06:22 GMT -6
As someone else put it, unless your coaching at NFL/Div 1 level, football is meant to be fun. Doesn't mean you won't have bad days but when you sit down and think about it, it should be more positive then negative. If a Coach wants to quit on a high, let them do it.
I've copped a lot of flak on this but I've actually swapped teams mid season this year (Amateur club level in Australia) I've had a few people say I should've stuck it out and changed next season, I've had other guys say I should've just taken the rest of the season off.
For me, I love playing football. I was at the point with my old team (because of coaches) that I wasn't enjoying it. I was thinking to myself "I have to go to training" rather then "Yeah, training tonight" and it wasn't much better come game day.
After switching, I'm looking forward to training, I'm back in the weights room and I'm up at stupid o'clock saturdays to make sure I'm ready for the game.
The point? If you ain't happy more then not, there needs to be a change.
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Post by champ80 on Sept 22, 2011 10:03:47 GMT -6
Guys....I'm new on the board so I don't know.........but in Texas......you don't win.....you don't have a job.......so if you see lean years ahead....the tendency is not to wait and see if you can survive......you look for greener pastures.........
At one time....not so long ago.....The Texas High School Coaches Association did a survey on longevity of varsity coaches, at all levels, in Texas high schools........results.......the average stay for a varsity coach was 5 years........We are a very mobile profession here................................................
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Post by coachcb on Sept 22, 2011 10:17:01 GMT -6
Honestly, it's not the losing that will wear me out; it's the issues in the community and school that LEAD to the losing. There are a lot of issues within a community and a school that hurt a football program; things that you cannot control. We are having success this year and I am enjoying it for the most part. But, it is still a daily fight to keep the boat upright when the community/culture as a whole views 'showing up' for practice as cutting it. Not actually WORKING AT practice.
People can call me a coward after they go through an 0-8 season where you walk into every other week with 9 guys to play an 8-man game. Where you have someone go down and suffer through the embarrassment of playing with 7 guys. Where you may have to call and forfeit a d-mn game because you don't know if you can field a squad. And, this is while putting in 12 hour days during the week along with breaking down film all weekend. That was us last year, we've got 21 out this year and I am thrilled. But, I will NEVER risk going through another season like my first as an HC.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2011 21:16:13 GMT -6
I have a situation here that is quite interesting. As most know, I moved back to my hometown to help a buddy take over our alma mater. Well 3 years later the whole staff has been fired and me not being a teacher is still here helping the local junior high now. The cupboard is as bare as it's ever been. The combined record of varsity, JV and JH is 1-14 and our youth programs are boasting a 5-25 record so far this season (that's all levls) and none of the 6 level teams has more than 1 win. I have a chance to leave, and I'm wondering if I should jump, but there's something I heard a good coach say once and it's not that you are there to win with kids, you are a MAKER of MEN. It stick with me to this day. I love our kids, they are great, just not good football players. I'm tired of losing though. I've never lost at ANYTHING as much as I have in the past four years. It wears on me, as I take full responsibility for the losses, yet I know I'm doing everything I can. Never really been here, and maybe I'm whining, but I'm in uncharted territory. So what stance do you take, stay and cotinue to work with the youth, or take a chance and move on to someplace with a little more "hope". Like I said, I may be whining and trying to get some self pity, and if it comes off that way, I'm sorry. But to be a part of 3 wins in 4 years gets to you. Yes, I know there is always somebody out there who has it worse, and I'm NOT looking for pity, yet I'm looking more for direction. My heart says leave, but the mind and concience say stay. Wow, never really made a post like this before...let's see where this goes!  Duece |
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Post by blb on Oct 7, 2011 6:35:56 GMT -6
Duece, there are kids elsewhere that need you too.
If you're going to be a career coach, you will move-change jobs several times.
Some will be of your own volition, some not.
You have done all you can in your home town. Time to make a contribution-continue your career in a new situation.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2011 7:03:09 GMT -6
Good stuff guys, I really appreciate it. Thanks.
Duece
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Post by coachwoodall on Oct 7, 2011 7:03:18 GMT -6
There will always be kids there you love to be around, then they graduate and another new crop of kids you love to be around come along.
I haven't had the exact thing happen to me, but I did hang around at a program after the writing on the wall was pretty clear. Yep, I did it for the kids. My heart said stay and be the 'transition' guy. Of course it didn't hurt that we were loaded, but I knew no matter what that it would only be for a year. And when I left there were kids I hated to leave, we were going to be good again, and I was okay with it.
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Post by ajreaper on Oct 7, 2011 10:14:27 GMT -6
My point is, we as coaches are hypocrites by and large. We preach to our players about "being tough" and "sucking it up" and "discipline" and then some don't practice what we preach. Leaving a school for the sole reason of not being able to win with the talent incoming is cowardly. I am not talking about over staying your welcomce, or needing a change, or new blood coming in. I am talking about abandoning the ship just because the players who left were better than the ones you have and you just don't want to have to coach as hard, so you leave. I hope that is clear. I am sure similar happens in every profession on planet earth- coaches are just people who coach and nothing more. |
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Post by coachcb on Oct 7, 2011 10:40:05 GMT -6
Duece - you already know the answer to the question. If your heart says leave then that's what you'll do and while you may feel guilty about it, you will be happier. You'll only be sad about leaving until the kids you know/like graduate. BTW - I agree with the maker of men comment, however...as is my experience here at my new school...the kids are not the problem. These parents up here just don't make their kids do. If their kid wants to leave school, they just come get them. "why did jimmy leave school? was he sick?" - "no, he was just tired, so I brought him home so he could take a nap." These parent's lie, cheat and steal for their kids - I have come into a 14-18 year old youth team. It's freaking crazy. I'm all for making men - but at the same time - if you drown simply because you refuse to try swim, then I am willing to stand idley by and watch you do it. Honestly, I would stick with a place as long as there are numbers. I feel like we have a chance to turn something around as long as we have a reasonable amount of kids. But, a part of me is with dcohio on this one as I am in the same boat. A player called his mom and asked for a bus pass after school yesterday. I caught it over the intercom and talked to her on the phone. I explained to her that he had practice. The response: "Yeah, I know. But he's tired because he went to bed late last night." WTF do you do with that? |
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Post by ajreaper on Oct 7, 2011 10:55:17 GMT -6
Duece - you already know the answer to the question. If your heart says leave then that's what you'll do and while you may feel guilty about it, you will be happier. You'll only be sad about leaving until the kids you know/like graduate. BTW - I agree with the maker of men comment, however...as is my experience here at my new school...the kids are not the problem. These parents up here just don't make their kids do. If their kid wants to leave school, they just come get them. "why did jimmy leave school? was he sick?" - "no, he was just tired, so I brought him home so he could take a nap." These parent's lie, cheat and steal for their kids - I have come into a 14-18 year old youth team. It's freaking crazy. I'm all for making men - but at the same time - if you drown simply because you refuse to try swim, then I am willing to stand idley by and watch you do it. Honestly, I would stick with a place as long as there are numbers. I feel like we have a chance to turn something around as long as we have a reasonable amount of kids. But, a part of me is with dcohio on this one as I am in the same boat. A player called his mom and asked for a bus pass after school yesterday. I caught it over the intercom and talked to her on the phone. I explained to her that he had practice. The response: "Yeah, I know. But he's tired because he went to bed late last night." WTF do you do with that? You assure her he will have plenty of free time to catch up on his sleep as you are clearing out his locker to unburden him from the demands of football. |
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Post by coachcb on Oct 7, 2011 11:10:55 GMT -6
I didn't say a word to her. I turned and looked the kid straight in the eye after I got off of the phone and said, "You get on that bus and you're done. You know Coach ____ (my assistant) coaches basketball too; he won't forget this crap either".
He hit the field and practiced.
Pretty sad that I have to pull the basketball card out, but if it works, it works. I imagine the head basketball coach and I will have words over it but that's okay too. I've been hankering for a chance to chew his a-- out; his bullsh-t policies about practice attendance make my life harder.
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Post by coachcb on Oct 7, 2011 11:56:33 GMT -6
I completely understand. I called a parent and to tell her that her son had missed practice and she said "I know, I had to work so he didn't have a ride and if he goes to practice he's too tired to walk home." HE LIVES 4 BLOCKS AWAY!!! I can literally see his house from the practice field. I told her I understood and then I routinely omitted him from any and all news unless he just happened to be there. Took him off the text list, etc. and eventually he just didn't come anymore. I hear ya Duece...you sure you don't coach in ohio? at my school? I'm in a time warp here, I've never seen anything like it. We had another starter not show up for school today; he can't play tomorrow if he doesn't get here. I just got off of the phone with his mom. She informed me that she didn't know that he had a game tomorrow but he won't be back in school today because his "best friend is home for the weekend from college". She must think I'm stupid; his best friend DROPPED OUT OF COLLEGE two weeks ago, it's been all over campus. You can't hold the kids AND the parents accountable. I'm not really mad about it anymore; it's kind of funny in a really, really sad sort of way. |
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