|
Post by royalfootball on Feb 3, 2011 9:52:37 GMT -6
Coaches/Administrators, I'm part of a rules committee that is looking at ideas to possibly change or re-structure our rule regarding lopsided scores between teams. Anyone willing to share their league rules regarding this would be greatly appreciated.
Here is our rule currently:
During the second half, should the difference of scores reach 24 points, the "running clock rule" shall come into effect and remain in effect until the score difference is less than 24 points. When this rule is in effect the clock shall run continually during the quarter except: (1) during charged or officials time-outs, or (2) a score by the losing team; in this case the clock shall stop after the score and restart on the ensuing free kick.
|
|
|
Post by bobgoodman on Feb 3, 2011 10:45:46 GMT -6
Where I coached in 2010 our mercy rules were very extensive -- I didn't even know all of them except approximately -- but that was in house ball and so may be a special case. They affected who could play, who could run the ball, and what type of defense could be used.
In 1979 & 1980, the Northern States Football League (adults) had a 2-stage rout rule that affected timing rules only. One stage was for when a team had a 25-39 point lead in the 2nd half, and the 2nd stage was for a 40+ points blowout. The rule in the 2nd stage was simple: the clock ran, period. Yes, even during a charged or official's time out; play would be stopped, but not the clock. (I think they made an exception for the Chi. Lions to rub it in with a FG attempt, but only because the distance would've been a new league record.) I recommend that sort of mercy rule for one reason: simplicity. You may already be using officials who officiate under a couple of different codes not counting yours, so anything you do to make it simpler for them would be appreciated.
Of course you could go for even simpler and adopt a version (adjusting the threshold as appropriate) of the old 6-man rule that the game ends if either team is up by 40+ at or after halftime.
You could look at participation rules for lopsided games too, but I don't recommend them. If teams don't want to substitute liberally when the score is out of reach, then there's nothing really good for it.
Other rules (like for instance having the team with the lead play short) complicate matters, may add to the embarrassment factor, and make the game something other than what the players came to play, so I don't recommend them.
|
|
|
Post by mahonz on Feb 3, 2011 11:02:58 GMT -6
Coaches/Administrators, I'm part of a rules committee that is looking at ideas to possibly change or re-structure our rule regarding lopsided scores between teams. Anyone willing to share their league rules regarding this would be greatly appreciated. Here is our rule currently: During the second half, should the difference of scores reach 24 points, the "running clock rule" shall come into effect and remain in effect until the score difference is less than 24 points. When this rule is in effect the clock shall run continually during the quarter except: (1) during charged or officials time-outs, or (2) a score by the losing team; in this case the clock shall stop after the score and restart on the ensuing free kick. Coach The reality is, a slaughter rules needs to marry up with your minimum play rule and allowable roster sizes. If you have a rather high minimum play rule and allow larger rosters then the slaughter rule need to reflect that and also be rather high. Our slaughter rule follows the State HS rule. Once you hit a 40-point differential the clock runs with a few exceptions ( timeouts, change of posession, PAT...etc. ). Nothing outside of that. Coach Mike
|
|
|
Post by royalfootball on Feb 3, 2011 11:50:56 GMT -6
Our mpr (minimum play rule) is 10 regardless of team size. Teams can be as large as 35, but I'd guess the average is close to 24-25.
|
|
|
Post by mahonz on Feb 3, 2011 12:24:44 GMT -6
Our mpr (minimum play rule) is 10 regardless of team size. Teams can be as large as 35, but I'd guess the average is close to 24-25. Coach Then do some worst case calculating. How long are your quarters? 8 min / 10 / 12. How many plays on average does this equal out to? 25 players at 10 plays each...does everyone get their fair share of plays if you run the clock after halftime? A 24 point monument sounds a bit low to me unless your quarters are 12 minutes. Some other things to consider. Does your MPR include ST's?....PAT's....penalities? Do you have any written exceptions if a team has to go with 30+ players. When considereing rules....most will have an effect on other rules so look at the big picture first. Coach Mike Quick Edit…. Coach Thought I’d add that if you are looking to change this rule then some of the items mentioned may help prove a point. If you want to change something for the sake of change because you may not agree with it as written….usually falls on deaf ears. But if you want to change this rule because it affects the kids playing time…you will have an audience. Mercy rules are a touchy subject. Coach Mike
|
|
|
Post by mhcoach on Feb 3, 2011 14:05:25 GMT -6
Mike
All 16 of our games this year went to Mercy rules, & you are so right that it is such a touchy subject. We actually had a game this season where we ran 6 offensive plays. 6 for the whole game(yes all 6 were td's), even so it was very frustrating. Even our 3 games at the nationals went to mercy rule, they were adminstered different(it was a circus).
It's unfortunate that we have to deal with the fact that teams aren't prepared to play certain teams; but that is what makes Mercy Rules so important. I wish I had an answer to what is best, it seems like no matter which way we turn on this question some one gets short changed. Over the course of my years coaching I have played in leagues with no mery rules, IMHO that seemed to be the best. Then again I have usually been in the position of the team ahead. My personal perspective has been; anything goes in the first half. Once the game is out of the wood then take every care to insure the other team doesn't get run over. You can't ask a player not to try, but as a coach you can run your second & third teams.
Joe
|
|
|
Post by justryn2 on Feb 3, 2011 16:45:01 GMT -6
In our league the mercy rule is similar to the original poster; 24 point differential in the 2nd half means running clock with only a few exceptions. There is one other item in our mercy rule, the team ahead has to replace their starting backfield.
We do a weigh-in before every game to ensure compliance with our weight restrictions. At that time, the coaches exchange rosters with four players designated as the starting backfield. Once the mercy rule goes into effect, the team ahead must remove those four designated players from their starting backfield. They can still play any other position but not in the backfield.
Also, the team ahead is not allowed to blitz on defense but, blitzing is defined as rushing more than 5. So, they're allowed to bring 5 rushers but no more than that. I see the reason for the rules and I've been on both the upside and downside during games. But, to be completely honest, I would rather just play football no matter what the score.
|
|
|
Post by cyflcoach on Feb 3, 2011 17:35:41 GMT -6
Ours is 24 points as well. Starters in backfield must be replaced. No blitzing allowed defensively (max 5 man rush). This has worked reasonably well, but, as with all rules of this type, you can't effectively legislate sportsmanship IMO, even if you are successful at eliminating tremendously lopsided scores.
I coach to win the game, and once that is no longer in doubt, I do my best to see that kids on both sidelines can hopefully take something positive away from the experience that day. That's just me...
Dave Hartman CYFL Coach
|
|
dangerzone
Freshmen Member
[F4:jthompson383]
Posts: 35
|
Post by dangerzone on Feb 3, 2011 23:28:28 GMT -6
I have been a part of a league that madates the winning team to take out their Starting O back and Deffense LB, and DB's once a team is up by 3 TD's. I felt that taking out the Offense may be acceptable but not the D...It sends a bad message to the winning team. "It's OK for the other team to score as long as you have a good enough cushion?" Not at all. We have a saying on our team"If they can't score, they can't win" We want our kids to take pride in their Deffense
|
|
|
Post by vikingdw on Feb 4, 2011 0:42:28 GMT -6
Similar to your rules. When up by 28 points and in 2nd half, there's a running clock except for timeouts and after TDs. There are no other restrictions or requirements to remove 1st string players, just a fast clock in the 2nd half. First half is regular clock regardless of score.
|
|
|
Post by davecisar on Feb 4, 2011 1:17:20 GMT -6
Mercy rules are put into place when you have leagues that are large enough that everyone cant be trusted. There are guys out there that think that the "first one to 100 wins" should be the goal in youth football. While Im all for the game being a competitive contest with a legit winner and loser- there is no need to rub anyones face in it. You can always do things to not score if you really want to without telling the kids not to play hard.
This season we went 11-1 and 8 of those games were mercy rule wins for us. Our mercy rule is running clock when up by 21- clock doesnt stop for much of anything- it hurt the development of our team. They added new nuances to the rule last year- once up by 21- nothing put between the tackle runs and no blitzing- and they ask you to sub, they also gave the opp the option of freezing the score and using a regular clock. I would prefer the mercy score be 28-35 to allow us to work on a few things. SOme guys packed their defense in when we were in mercy which I didnt think was fair to us. Some guys are never going to be prepared no matter how slanted the rules are in their favor. But Im not a fan of guys leaving their starters in the whole game and trying to run up the score either- I dont do that.
|
|
|
Post by coachmsl on Feb 4, 2011 7:49:11 GMT -6
Dave, That really doesnt sound like a "Mercy" rule. It sounds like a Grace Rule. 21 points is not the end of the game. With the rule you have there, an early lead could be erased by change in momentum. If it were points alone, I probably wouldnt object, but the limits on Offense and Defense makes this just a silly mercy rule. Surely you have pull in the league and could help get it changed. But from what i know of you, you see this rule as a challenge. Matt
|
|
|
Post by Chris Clement on Feb 4, 2011 8:23:18 GMT -6
Our mercy rule is simply that they stop posting the score on the scoreboard. It's adapted from hockey, where after a 7-goal league it's generally accepted that they'll just stop showing it. So, when we hit the mercy threshold, we keep on playing, but the scoreboard doesn't show any more than a ~25 point differential. Running the clock seems to be screwing the kids out of playing time, and could make it really tough to get your minimum plays in.
Also, we have a general rule on limiting blitzing, as do some of you, but I've always wondered how a ref can tell between a blitz and my linebackers coming up hard to fill their run gaps. If they go double tight and it's an obvious run, you should have 8 people coming up to fill their gaps, is that a blitz? Is a boxing end part of a blitz, or is he just hard contain?
|
|
|
Post by mhcoach on Feb 4, 2011 9:03:32 GMT -6
Coaches:
Reflecting on Mercy Rules, & reading others post makes me wonder who is a mercy rule really helping. Forget about the team that's ahead we will discuss them later. The team that is getting beat.
1) Less game against a better opponent means less time to improve. 2) They have to limit what plays they run, giving the defense a false sense of security. 3) Running clock means not all players will get in enough plays. 4) Ref's will usually give the trailing team more leeway, once again teaching them nothing.
It seems to me the biggest argument for Mercy Rules is to reduce the chance of injury. If a team is playing by the same rules & is woefully prepared to play the game. Doesn't that responsibility fall on the coaches? Do we really want to take the physical out of football? There always is a chance of injury in our game. Heck, soccer & badminton have injuries too.
Coaches running up scores is another issue entirely. Somewhere along the line they will reap what they sow. There is a distinct difference between making your team better & trying to humiliate an opponent. IMHO I coach because I care about developing players. That includes players on the other team. Pasco Paul & I would always look at the players on another team & rate them. We would wonder what we could do with this player or that player. In the line to shake hands we often had words for those players.
All this being said what is the real answer. One observation is clear, certain teams year in & year out are doormats. Others are always strong. That boils down to coaching. Therefore league administrators need to level the coaching field not make changes to the game.
Joe
|
|
|
Post by mahonz on Feb 4, 2011 10:14:08 GMT -6
Coaches: Reflecting on Mercy Rules, & reading others post makes me wonder who is a mercy rule really helping. Forget about the team that's ahead we will discuss them later. The team that is getting beat. 1) Less game against a better opponent means less time to improve. 2) They have to limit what plays they run, giving the defense a false sense of security. 3) Running clock means not all players will get in enough plays. 4) Ref's will usually give the trailing team more leeway, once again teaching them nothing. It seems to me the biggest argument for Mercy Rules is to reduce the chance of injury. If a team is playing by the same rules & is woefully prepared to play the game. Doesn't that responsibility fall on the coaches? Do we really want to take the physical out of football? There always is a chance of injury in our game. Heck, soccer & badminton have injuries too. Coaches running up scores is another issue entirely. Somewhere along the line they will reap what they sow. There is a distinct difference between making your team better & trying to humiliate an opponent. IMHO I coach because I care about developing players. That includes players on the other team. Pasco Paul & I would always look at the players on another team & rate them. We would wonder what we could do with this player or that player. In the line to shake hands we often had words for those players. All this being said what is the real answer. One observation is clear, certain teams year in & year out are doormats. Others are always strong. That boils down to coaching. Therefore league administrators need to level the coaching field not make changes to the game. Joe Joe Before I volunteered to help out as an administrator I really didn’t think much about this and didn’t think it was a problem. Then I got a look at the behind the scenes. 80 point differentials that the league would refuse to post up….but it happened. Refs not knowing if the slaughter rules were 40 / 50 or 60 points. Teams wanting to quit because they were down 50 and the opponent still had their foot on the gas. Cisar makes a great point. Large leagues like ours have issues. Its near impossible to manage 100-115 games per week. Our league has issues and running up the score is one of them. Some orgs that boarder each other will do this, for example. They are in competition for registrants in the off-season so it carries over to the playing field. Since we can create and then coach the same team for up to 7 years, strong rivals are created that carry little respect for one another. What to do? It’s a mystery but creating more rules is not the answer. The only hope would be to find 200 HC's that think like you do….like that will ever happen. Coach Mike
|
|
|
Post by mhcoach on Feb 4, 2011 10:45:20 GMT -6
Mike
It's sad, but I agree with both you & DC. It always seems the adults find a way to screw up the kids. Either "daddy ballin" or running up the score. 80 points is insane, the most I have scored was 68 in 12 minute qtrs. The wild thing was we had called off the dogs in both of those games in first qtr. We scored more on defense because the opponents kept trying to throw the ball. In one game we were up 68-0 and the other team lined up to punt. We had blocked 2 for td's & returned another for a td so I was mortified. I called a time out, put in the starters & told them no one rush & for the returner to fair catch the ball. I knew if I had in the #2's or #3's they would try to make a play. Sure enough the center snaps the ball over the punters head, the punter is running around like a chicken with his head cut off, my guys are on the LOS. He finally picks up the ball & our Stud DE steps outside & yells at the punter, " stop & just kick the ball". It was like a scene from the keystone cops. Finally the punter kicks the ball my returner fair catches it. We ran coaches favorite play(taking a knee) 3 times & got out of there.
I have been accused of running up the score a few times, each time a look at game film has shown just the opposite. I have never understood trying to humiliate an opponent. I have played in some very intense rivalries over the years, & to be honest it never entered into my to rub anything in. The players on the other side don't deserve it, they just want to play. What would be the benefit to it?
Joe
|
|
|
Post by texasbuzzard on Feb 13, 2011 21:53:18 GMT -6
28 point lead in the first half and the losing coach picks three players on offense that need to sit. 28 point lead in the second half and the losing coach has the option of running the clock. If the score differential comes under 28 then the three players are eligible to play until the differential is above 28 again. But once you make the decision to run the clock in the second half, no going back. I've been on the losing end of those blow-outs and I could not see why coaches had to get that last score on a 36-6 game. Had coaches call a time-out with 10 seconds to go in a game, he wanted to try and get a different kid a score. Suck it up, line your team up for the handshake and put on a winning smile and tell them "good game" They don't need a snide comment or a cold shoulder. I have been on the winning end too and our behavior did not change. I had to have a talk with some parents last year when the other team kneeled the ball to win, it was a close one and we were out of time outs down by 6. Had a dad calling the other team cowards. I tell my assistant coaches that we must be the most noble people on the field, I have fallen short of that goal before but I'm getting better.
|
|
|
Post by bracius54 on Feb 15, 2011 12:36:42 GMT -6
I'm a strength caoch and not a football coach, but being a former college, high school and pee-wee player, I think the mercy rule sucks!! The only way I see fit to use the mercy rule is in pee-wee football. High school ball..game on!!! Score 100 if you can!
|
|
|
Post by outlaw17 on Feb 15, 2011 16:59:39 GMT -6
What is a blow-out? I do not think scoring 100 is acceptable. I also believe it is poor sportsmanship to unmercifully pound another team, but football is scored differently than baseball, hockey, etc. In our league you get the 6 points for a TD and 2 points for the kick, therefore a 48-0 blowout (6-TD’s) is actually “6-goals in hockey” or “6-runs in baseball”. Who thinks 6-0 is a blowout? My son’s play baseball and there are many games that end 13-1 or 10-0, etc and nobody is complaining or asking for special mercy rules. This whole issue is a joke. It is just a few bad coaches truly running up the score and a few “bad loser” looking for sympathy. Good coaches will “manage” the score.
|
|
|
Post by bracius54 on Feb 15, 2011 17:25:19 GMT -6
"6 points for a TD and 2 points for the kick, therefore a 48-0 blowout (6-TD’s)"
What? No, a point after a TD is 1 point. It would 6 TD's and two field goals to score 48 points
|
|
|
Post by bracius54 on Feb 15, 2011 17:26:49 GMT -6
If a team can’t stop your running game and you break 80yd run after 80yd run then what, just take a knee in the 3rd quarter? No, pile the points throw the scrubs in and get them some reps! If they can't stop the scrubs, then they deserve a 100 put on them!!
|
|
|
Post by mhcoach on Feb 15, 2011 18:16:04 GMT -6
Bracius
First, in most youth leagues it's 2 for a kick, & 1 for a run. This is to promote the kicking game. It's a lot harder for the younger teams to kick.
Second, clearly you are missing the point. All 16 games I coached this season went to mercy rule. That includes the games at the Nationals. My team had no scrubs, yes we may have players who were not as good as our starters but they weren't "Scrubs". Yes coaches need to coach blocking & tackling better, that doesn't mean the players on the field need to be humiliated. Do not be so narrow minded to make children suffer for the adults mistakes. Outlaw in his post spoke about good coaches managing a game, then you demonstrate why we need "Mercy Rules".
Joe
|
|
|
Post by bracius54 on Feb 15, 2011 20:20:17 GMT -6
Bracius First, in most youth leagues it's 2 for a kick, & 1 for a run. This is to promote the kicking game. It's a lot harder for the younger teams to kick. Second, clearly you are missing the point. All 16 games I coached this season went to mercy rule. That includes the games at the Nationals. My team had no scrubs, yes we may have players who were not as good as our starters but they weren't "Scrubs". Yes coaches need to coach blocking & tackling better, that doesn't mean the players on the field need to be humiliated. Do not be so narrow minded to make children suffer for the adults mistakes. Outlaw in his post spoke about good coaches managing a game, then you demonstrate why we need "Mercy Rules". Joe If everyone would read my original post, I said I hate the mercy rule at the high school level, which is why I don't care if a team puts up 100 on someone else. This was the point of my second post. As for youth/pee-wee football there HAS TO BE A mercy rule! Kids at these ages need to play the sport for the fun of it, not for the competition! Their cognitive ability to understand and process this is fragile, this is just one of many reasons why kids drop out of sports at a young age, but that’s a whole thread by its self!
|
|
|
Post by bobgoodman on Feb 15, 2011 21:57:19 GMT -6
First, in most youth leagues it's 2 for a kick, & 1 for a run. This is to promote the kicking game. It's a lot harder for the younger teams to kick. Heard of any youth leagues that adopted the old 6-man scoring rules of that plus a 4-point field goal?
|
|
|
Post by belebuch1 on Feb 17, 2011 18:54:43 GMT -6
Our rules are. Up by 21 running clock rule and you must replace your backfield/skill positions on offense.
|
|
|
Post by bjpjll on Feb 18, 2011 8:19:05 GMT -6
where i coach we have no mercy rules and no play requirements so the scores can be pretty lopsided couple yrs ago lost 54-0
|
|
|
Post by vince148 on Feb 22, 2011 11:54:30 GMT -6
"6 points for a TD and 2 points for the kick, therefore a 48-0 blowout (6-TD’s)" What? No, a point after a TD is 1 point. It would 6 TD's and two field goals to score 48 points Our league does this with the lower levels. I guess they figure at 8yo, it's easier to run for a PAT than kick, so the kick is worth more. I've been on both sides of this, mostly on the losing end. One of the rules our league has is that if you are within the 24-30 range, the losing team always gets the ball back, even after they score. One of the things I don't agree with is that the HC gets suspended for a game if the score exceeds the 30 points. As I sais, I have been on both sides of this discussion. I even tried to change it this offseason to no avail, at least not getting the HC suspended. I like the running clock idea. We do not employ that in our league. Our MPP is 10. However, there are several issues here. One thing that I brought up is how does suspending the coach benefit the team? How does that make the kids feel when they win, but their coach got suspended because they scored too much? What message does that send to the kids on the winning team? For the kids on the losing team, what do they learn. If the other team has to throttle back some by replacing players, does the other team learn anything? We had a couple of games where we were losing like 24-0 by the end of the first half, then held the team scoreless in the second half. Did my defense play better or did they go up against the MPPs thus making my kids think that they were better than they actually were? Again, a very sensitive issue. Psychologically, do kids that young really care what the final score is? Do they even remember? They just go back to being kids. Monday morning, it's as if they never even played. What about injury? Suppose the winning coach decides to put his heaviest guy who normally plays OT at FB. The kid runs and pulls a hamstring because he's playing a position that he shouldn't be in in the first place, but he's there because you have to rotate players. Not only that, but you all know that things can happen very quickly in youth ball. A kick off return, an interception returned for a TD, then a punt returned for a TD and it's 21-0 halfway through the first quarter. But now the leading coach can't run his regular offense and there's still 3 and a half quarters to go. How fair is that? And if they do score again, the HC gets suspended. I personally, don't know what the ideal solution would be. I'm only relating my experience based on our league. But evidently, this is a serious enough problem that needs to be addressed.
|
|
|
Post by bobgoodman on Feb 22, 2011 14:56:29 GMT -6
"6 points for a TD and 2 points for the kick, therefore a 48-0 blowout (6-TD’s)" What? No, a point after a TD is 1 point. It would 6 TD's and two field goals to score 48 points Our league does this with the lower levels. I guess they figure at 8yo, it's easier to run for a PAT than kick, so the kick is worth more. Which is why I wonder why I don't hear any more about the old 6 man scoring rule of 4 pts. for a FG. Heck, they could offer 5 pt. FGs or more at that age! It works only with a HC who coaches in bad faith on that point. Yes. They gain experience and have fun playing against players who are not as good as the ones who beat them by so much. It's like having a more evenly matched scrimmage after the game's decided. Some of them don't even know the score during the game, or who's ahead, or what quarter it is, or the name of the opposing team. But they usually know how they're doing vs. the player opposite them.
|
|
|
Post by los on Feb 22, 2011 23:08:55 GMT -6
Ha Ha....that last paragraph typifies most of my teams Bob.....about 20-30 minutes after the game,while we were eating at a fast food joint.....I could ask the kids what the final score was and the majority couldn't tell me.....they would know if we won or lost(maybe?) but not by how much......what they did remember and embellish for a few days at school, was anything good "they did"......the attitudes of the parents and coaches probably have more to do with the way younger kids handle a win or loss, than if they were left to their own devices? Mercy rules don't help the players on either team imho......they're more about catering to the fragile ego's of the adults involved ......well, that and letting the officiating crew get home early,lol......We didn't have them in our youth league and my first experience with being asked was at the HS level....we started a new football program at a small HS that had never had football before....naturally,in our first season we had to schedule anyone who'd play us and were getting walloped pretty good every time we played.....well, we ride 60 miles to play a larger class school, that was a perennial powerhouse......by halftime the score was like 40 something to zip......guess you know who had the zip huh?......anyhow, the refs come running over before the 2nd half starts and ask us if we want a "mercy" running clock with 10 minute qtrs.....me and the HC look at each other,grin and tell them = "Heck no.....these guys need as much real game, playing time/experience as they can get.....we didn't ride all the way up here to go home early.....we don't care what the score is!"........so after a moment of shock and disbelief, they let us play the rest of the game in regulation.......we finally got our first score of the year in that game,which caused a huge cheering uproar from both sides of the field,somewhere in the 4th qtr......the final score was like 70 - 6.....but we went home feeling pretty dang good......the kids played hard the entire game.....we all learned a lot.....the other team got some good reps for their underclassmen......good deal all the way around,imo......those first few seasons we never asked for or accepted "Mercy" from any of our opponents and our team fared just fine emotionally.....matter of fact, by the end of our 3rd season we made the 1st round of the state playoffs.......course we got walloped again there but we made progress.
|
|
|
Post by bobgoodman on Apr 3, 2011 21:38:11 GMT -6
in most youth leagues it's 2 for a kick, & 1 for a run. This is to promote the kicking game. It's a lot harder for the younger teams to kick. On the 8U team whose offense coach I'm advising, turns out they're playing in a league in Texas that gives 1 XP by run, 3XP by kick -- and the kick can be made without a rush! I'm guessing it's also 1 XP for a pass, but who knows -- to encourage passing, it's conceivable they'd give 2 pts for that. They don't allow BBW, but do allow the offensive ends to be in motion toward the other OL, or lined up with shoulders 45 degrees away from them, at the snap. The defense has to have anyone playing between the guards' noses at the snap play a yard off the ball, and they can't rush anyone farther outside than the outside shoulder of the last tight OL.
|
|