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Post by davecisar on Oct 31, 2010 4:41:31 GMT -6
I thought this only happened in youth league- My friends that are officials say it happens in HS games as well- one in a Title game a few years ago.
Nebraska bungled the opening coin toss, giving the ball to Missouri to start both halves.
“That wasn't by choice,” NU coach Bo Pelini said. “Our captains made a little mistake.”
Nebraska sent Prince Amukamara, Roy Helu, Mathew May and Keith Williams to midfield before the game. The Huskers won the toss. But instead of opting to defer, as instructed, they said Nebraska wanted to kick.
“For me, the day started pretty bad,” Pelini said. “That was what I was greeted with today when I walked on to the sideline — that we were going to kick off to start both halves. I take responsibility for that because obviously I didn't give instruction well enough.”
It worked out fine as NU forced a three and out to start the game and Missouri moved just 3 yards in five plays to open the third quarter.
Could have been a difference maker- wasnt
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Post by davishfc on Oct 31, 2010 8:10:59 GMT -6
You've got to walk kids through that entire sequence several times over so you know they have. Otherwise they'll have a surprise for you when you ask them "so what was it?" The rotating captain for the week that goes out never speaks to the officials. He has not been instructed as to how the whole process takes place. He's there purely for show. It's a recognition thing for the week of practice but he does not call the toss or speak to the officials at all. The speaking captain will call the flip and respond to the official when asked questions. Fortunately, we have not had issues with this. We send pretty smart kids out and I go over with the one I want speaking how the entire exchange will go and what the various options are. I couldn't imagine how disheartening that would feel to not receive a kick at the start of either half. You have certainly created an uphill climb just from a simple exchange with the officials before the start of the game. Thankfully in this case it was the University of Nebraska. Bo Pelini must've come unglued about this. Somebody better run and hide or like Roy Helu did rush for 300+ yards to get out of coach's dog house.
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Post by 19delta on Oct 31, 2010 8:54:00 GMT -6
Interesting...
In the youth games and high school games I have coached in, the officials usually "help out" the kids if they say something they shouldn't at the coin toss. I've seen high school officials tell kids "Do you REALLY want to do that?" after the other team won the toss, deferred, and then the kids chose to kickoff. I've also seen officials simply tell the kids at the start of the 2nd half "You are receiving, right?"
I'm assuming that college officials don't do that...
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Post by cqmiller on Oct 31, 2010 10:35:42 GMT -6
kids who play NCAA and Madden think that if you kick, you receive automatically because that is the way it works on the game. We make sure we coach up all the kids on the 4 choices and what they mean in a game.
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Post by Chris Clement on Oct 31, 2010 11:27:43 GMT -6
I avoid this problem by telling my kids the first words out of their mouths should be "We want the ball." and then the ref might tell them that they have to choose a side. It's not that I philosophically always want the ball to start the game, I just don't necessarily trust the kids to always make the right decision.
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Post by 19delta on Oct 31, 2010 12:22:41 GMT -6
We tell our kids simply that if we win the toss, we will defer. If we lose the toss, we really don't care what goal we are going to defend.
As far as choosing a goal to defend, what do you guys base that on?
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Post by wingtol on Oct 31, 2010 13:15:28 GMT -6
We had a HC do this once. They had the captains and HC's out for the toss, we won and deferred to the second half they said they would kick to start. Official's even asked HC this is what you want. Sure is he said. They were really a bad team so he went crazy when we we got the ball again to start the second half up like 50 points.
As far as which end zone to defend if we get that choice we want to be going towards the clock in the 4th qtr just in case time becomes a factor, then the whole team can see the clock.
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Post by tripleoption61 on Oct 31, 2010 13:15:37 GMT -6
wind away from their fans towards our fans field conditions
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Post by airraider on Oct 31, 2010 13:17:24 GMT -6
We tell our kids simply that if we win the toss, we will defer. If we lose the toss, we really don't care what goal we are going to defend. As far as choosing a goal to defend, what do you guys base that on? Right, I always hear coaches saying they want the clock in the 4th.. sure, if the play clock is on the board then I can understand it.. but most do not. I guess some of the guys Im around just say that because they have heard that.
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Post by k on Oct 31, 2010 15:47:05 GMT -6
Anyone ever kicked in both intentionally because it was a blowout in your favor?
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Post by blb on Oct 31, 2010 16:52:04 GMT -6
You don't have to "walk them through it."
You tell Captains EXPLICITLY before sending team out for Pre-Game Warm-up what to do if you win the toss - Defer, Receive, or Defend a goal.
Very rarely would we do anything besides "Defer."
Only other thing I tell them is, if we have to kick - kick to or away from Scoreboard (or Flag) - with the wind. If wind is a factor and you start game out by having to punt into it, you could be out of game before you get the wind at your back.
And frankly, most Referees we have ask me in Pre-Game conference 1) What do I want to do if we win toss, 2) if we lose toss, and 3) which Captain will do the speaking.
Offensive linemen don't need to "see the clock." They need to get their azzes up to LOS, get set, and fire out-pass block when QB's command tells them to, regardless of Quarter.
None of fields we play on have "Play Clock." Back Judge signals at 10 seconds left, then counts down last five. We practice this every Thursday.
Enough that me (HC/OC) and QB are in control.
If we win OT toss we want to play defense first for obvious reasons. If we have to choose end of field, we go in front of student section.
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Post by Coach Huey on Oct 31, 2010 19:06:25 GMT -6
when choosing ends, shouldn't the elements always come into play? sun, wind, etc. sounds like the coach was thinking.
curious why people feel the need to "face the clock" in the 4th... what does that give you - over the elements factors? there should be a 25 second clock on both ends. if not, the official will raise his hand to indicate 10 seconds remaining on play clock - facing the scoreboard isn't necessary for that.
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Post by morris on Nov 1, 2010 8:08:27 GMT -6
Anyone ever kicked in both intentionally because it was a blowout in your favor? Not as a coach but as a player we did it a couple of times during a JV season. We were up by about 30 in both games at half and the other teams could not move the ball worth a crap. As far was which one to defend we go with the elements and field conditions. If the elements are not a factor we like to go toward the scoreboard. This is in part to help me with time management. That way I don't have to listen or look back. Anyone keep the play clock on them? I watched a a HS coach on TV the other night that did it on his digital watch.
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Post by wingt74 on Nov 1, 2010 8:45:28 GMT -6
I make this simple
I tell the kids "If you win the toss, we want the ball, if we lose the toss, we want the ball, if the refs tell you you can't have the ball then say we want the ball in the 2nd half....and when the refs say yes, you will get the ball in the 2nd half, now which side do you want to defend? I tell them to say they want the ball"
Yes, I'm a little paranoid. Obviously this is an exaggeration, but kids do the stupdest things.
Seriously, I make sure of my 4 captains, one is the smartest kid on the team, and he does all the talking.
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Post by Coach JR on Nov 1, 2010 10:00:12 GMT -6
I thought this only happened in youth league- My friends that are officials say it happens in HS games as well- one in a Title game a few years ago. Nebraska bungled the opening coin toss, giving the ball to Missouri to start both halves. “That wasn't by choice,” NU coach Bo Pelini said. “Our captains made a little mistake.” Nebraska sent Prince Amukamara, Roy Helu, Mathew May and Keith Williams to midfield before the game. The Huskers won the toss. But instead of opting to defer, as instructed, they said Nebraska wanted to kick. “For me, the day started pretty bad,” Pelini said. “That was what I was greeted with today when I walked on to the sideline — that we were going to kick off to start both halves. I take responsibility for that because obviously I didn't give instruction well enough.” It worked out fine as NU forced a three and out to start the game and Missouri moved just 3 yards in five plays to open the third quarter. Could have been a difference maker- wasnt I recall Auburn making the same "error" under Terry Bowden many years ago.
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Post by bucksweepdotcom on Nov 1, 2010 10:10:46 GMT -6
Anyone ever kicked in both intentionally because it was a blowout in your favor? Not as a coach but as a player we did it a couple of times during a JV season. We were up by about 30 in both games at half and the other teams could not move the ball worth a crap. As far was which one to defend we go with the elements and field conditions. If the elements are not a factor we like to go toward the scoreboard. This is in part to help me with time management. That way I don't have to listen or look back. Anyone keep the play clock on them? I watched a a HS coach on TV the other night that did it on his digital watch. I always have a coach keep the play clock on the sidelines in the 4th quarter of close games.
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Post by coachwoodall on Nov 1, 2010 10:24:30 GMT -6
have 3 captains: 1- if you win the toss 2- if you lose the toss 3- if given the option of the direction on the field
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Post by coachdennis on Nov 1, 2010 14:32:27 GMT -6
Every season, I get at least one game where we receive both kickoffs. Why? Because a coach screwed up in giving instruction. It's always priceless to see their faces when the second half starts, and they figure out that they have to kick again.
It's really simple - if it is our choice, we defer. If it's their choice, and they defer to us, we MUST take the ball. Not that complicated, and every week I have the same kid do the talking so we don't have any mixups.
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Post by coachlu on Nov 1, 2010 17:30:58 GMT -6
I choose one of my to do the talking all season. I tell them real simple we win defer we lose say we want the ball has worked out pretty well. One time when I was coaching youth football I sent an assistant out there with the kids for the coin flip and we ended up kicking off to open each half.
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Post by Coach Huey on Nov 2, 2010 16:21:44 GMT -6
how about you write it down on a small index card... hand to the captain prior to the coin toss... now, he's been told, and he's got it written down. tell him to show it to the official then read it to the official....
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Post by morris on Nov 2, 2010 16:25:36 GMT -6
A captain's tool kit. Some of ours' would need a reader for that index card
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Post by jgordon1 on Nov 2, 2010 19:25:55 GMT -6
happened to us two weeks ago..we practice this every week...we decided to let a soph be a game captain for one week so the other guys decided on their own to let him talk..nice gesture ..I was furious
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Post by mitch on Nov 2, 2010 19:42:23 GMT -6
The last thing I tell my guys is 'never say kick'.
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Post by ppaltice on Nov 3, 2010 10:20:36 GMT -6
have 3 captains: 1- if you win the toss 2- if you lose the toss 3- if given the option of the direction on the field Only one speaking captain (NFHS Rule 3-2-2 and I think NCAA is similar). It is an idea, but only one designated spokesman. I instruct the umpire to go through the options of if they win the toss and if they need to designate the side of field and I do the same. Usually if a team kicks, they will defend the scoreboard/clock, but other conditions may affect their choice. It is not just for the players, but also the coaches. Elements may dictate otherwise, but it is the default option for most teams. After the coin toss, I ask the winning captain: "Do you want to receive the ball?" I pause. Then I ask: "Do you want to defer to the second half?" At this time, the captain has usually heard what their coach instructed. If I know the captain wants to defer, I will start by asking: "Do you want to defer to the second half?" I find asking in this way minimizes the chance for mistakes as opposed to asking: "You won the toss, what would you like to do?" or quickly giving the options like: "Do you want to receive, defer, kick, or defend a goal?" Just like with penalty options, I tend to give the captain's the obvious choice first if there is an obvious choice. I make it difficult for the captains to make a mistake. At some point, if the captain is insistent, we have to go with what the captain wants. If a captain insists he wants to kick, it is out of our hands.
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dduck13
Sophomore Member
Posts: 130
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Post by dduck13 on Nov 3, 2010 10:44:26 GMT -6
I know it is a little different but I am the speaking captain for a semi-pro team and we were on the road this season..the home team won the toss and the captain for the home team said he wanted to kick. I heard the ref ask him "are you sure"...he said yes...we want to kick. So I choose a goal to defend and let my head coach know. As we get ready to start the second half the ref asked us what goal we wanted to defend. My coach and I both told him we didn't want a goal we wanted to receive. The ref looked us both in the eye and told us that that would not be an option...we asked why and stated that the home team had their option to start the game. The ref told us that that was not what the captain on the home team meant and that they really meant to defer to the second half and they had already opted to receive. We protested the game and were told that there was no way to correct the situation by the league. I just thought it was crazy to have this happen and the ref just be like that.
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Post by Coach JR on Nov 3, 2010 11:28:22 GMT -6
A captain's tool kit. Some of ours' would need a reader for that index card ROFLMFAO.
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Post by jgordon1 on Nov 3, 2010 11:51:21 GMT -6
Another thing I do is to tell the ref's exactly what want..didn't do the game i mentioned...F'ing idiot
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Post by wingt74 on Nov 3, 2010 12:07:47 GMT -6
I know it is a little different but I am the speaking captain for a semi-pro team and we were on the road this season..the home team won the toss and the captain for the home team said he wanted to kick. I heard the ref ask him "are you sure"...he said yes...we want to kick. So i choose a goal to defend and let my head coach know. As we get ready to start the second half the ref asked us what goal we wanted to defend. My coach and I both told him we didn't want a goal we wanted to receive. The ref looked us both in the eye and told us that that would not be an option...we asked why and stated that the home team had their option to start the game. The ref told us that that was not what the captain on the home team meant and that they really meant to defer to the second half and they had already opted to receive. We protested the game and were told that there was no way to correct the situation by the league. I just thought it was crazy to have this happen and the ref just be like that. wow, yeah, pretty crappy deal there. Almost like going for it on 4th down and throwing an incomplete pass...and the ref just giving you the first down because "you meant to run the ball here"
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Post by mahonz on Nov 4, 2010 17:10:53 GMT -6
I helped coached first graders this season. First game first coin toss. Ref pulls out his coin and show it to the kids like it mattered...heads...tails...wump... one of the kids grabs the coin.
Pretty much tells you that a coin flip is never a walk in the park at any level.
Coach Mike
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Post by cqmiller on Nov 5, 2010 13:27:43 GMT -6
We tell our kids simply that if we win the toss, we will defer. If we lose the toss, we really don't care what goal we are going to defend. As far as choosing a goal to defend, what do you guys base that on? #1 = Wind .....If the wind is going to be a factor, I want it in the 2nd and 4th quarter. IF we are behind I don't want to have to fight the wind and the opponent. If we are winning, make them have to do both. #2 = Scoreboard .....If wind is not a factor, I want my team to have the game and playclock in front of them for any 2 minute situations. Cuts down on procedures, delays, and clock "mess" ups by the kids if they can see it. #3 = Based on Stadium .....If wind is non-factor, and scoreboard/playclock on both sides, then I want to be going toward the loudest part of the stadium in the final minute. By the time you get down to where their fans are on top of you, they are nervous and worried, so they are going to be quieter than if you have to try and start your drive in the middle of the chaos.
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