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Post by kcbazooka on Jul 19, 2010 5:32:54 GMT -6
Had a parent of a graduated fb player ask why we had two-a-days in football. I gave kind of a weak answer in that everybody does and that the way it has always been. But in retrospect it was kind of zippo answer.
Why does football have to have two-a-days/double practices? The other sports for the most part don't do it. You don't very often see the basketball team do two-a-days - or wrestling or baseball - so why does football do it.
Is it because of the conditioning? Other sports can get their kids in shape with one practice - why can't we? Wrestlers are probably in better shape than most football players.
Is it because of the volume of stuff we put in?
The parent made the comment that maybe we overdo it, burn the kids out and just drain them. He wasn't being beligerent - just stating an argument.
Most of us have been in situations where school started early and we didn't get to have as many two-a-days. Did those teams lose that much to the teams that may have an extra week of two-a-days?
Just a topic that I thought might be interesting - have at it gentlemen...
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Post by blb on Jul 19, 2010 5:41:15 GMT -6
Back in dawn of CFB, when they brought players in before school started, they probably didn't want to turn 18-22 year old males loose for half the day!
"Volume" is probably part of the answer, especially for teams that can't two-platoon.
Conditioning was also more than likely part if it before advent of highly-organized off-season programs.
When I was in HS we had three-a-days (third practice helmets and shorts only) because we had only one week before Labor Day and start of school.
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Post by brophy on Jul 19, 2010 5:48:49 GMT -6
Tradition.
Anymore there is no "need" for 2-a-days. We condition year-round, we install parts of the offense/defense in the summer....
And what you do in 2 practices can be done in 1 (slightly longer than normal) practice
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Post by fballcoachg on Jul 19, 2010 6:07:14 GMT -6
I agree because its always been done, in high school we went legit 2 a days, 7-230 but the staff I am on is going 7-12 with an hour break which I think is more than enough. However, with our guys I can see the argument that a legit 2 a day will keep them out of trouble and too tired to get into anything afterwards but I think the 4 hrs will be enough to practice.
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Post by lochness on Jul 19, 2010 6:16:48 GMT -6
Tradition. Anymore there is no "need" for 2-a-days. We condition year-round, we install parts of the offense/defense in the summer.... And what you do in 2 practices can be done in 1 (slightly longer than normal) practice Since we can't install anything until the first day of practice, nor can we force players to condition year-round (rules), we have double sessions. Also, we need to record 5 practices before we can "hit," so it gets us to that point quicker relative to our fist game. But, ultimately, it's about conditioning and the fact that there is a LOT of stuff to teach in football to get ready for that first game. I also think it's an "everybody else dose it" kind of thing. If all of the other teams in the league are running double sessions, and we're not...where does that leave us?
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Post by bouncingboredom on Jul 19, 2010 6:23:15 GMT -6
I guess the off shoot of this would then be:
If you had the choice of doing two-a-days or one long session, which would you choose and why?
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Post by mhcoach on Jul 19, 2010 6:33:10 GMT -6
Coaches
Lochness hit the nail on the head. When I coached in NYC it was all about the rules. In order to get things on schedule you had to practice 2 adays. The schedule for us usually was 3-5-3, this meant 3 practices in helmets only for conditioning( It also was no hitting even bags) Then 5 practices full equipment(not full contact), this was usually where we did our 2 a days. Then 3 practices full contact before you could scrimage. Typically after 2 adays we went to football camp for 7 days & had our first scrimage after camp. Depending on how the calander went we needed to go 2 adays in order to meet the schedule.
In Florida, we didn't need 2 adays because of year round conditioning & spring practice. So really it depends on what State you are in & what the rules are.
Joe
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Post by champ93 on Jul 19, 2010 6:58:38 GMT -6
I think volume and conditioning are the major factors for me. I can't install things in the off-season as workouts are not mandatory.
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Post by hamerhead on Jul 19, 2010 7:10:04 GMT -6
I've never been a part of "one long practice" as a player or coach where I felt like we got s^#! out of the second practice. Sure, you can get them out there. They can go through the motions. Hell, you might even have a period or two that is decent. Generally though, I don't believe you get much out of the kids. Just my opinion though, I'm sure others have had more success.
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Post by wingtol on Jul 19, 2010 7:37:00 GMT -6
I think two a days are unique to football because there is so much to coordinate with the sport. In my eyes football the best example of a true team sport that we have, you have 11 guys who all need to perform their job in order for a play to be successful. How many times in basketball have you seen just one kid dominate and carry a team, or a pitcher come out and shut down the other team without their team having to do much at all. Sure you can have a player dominate in football, we had a rb go for like 250 and 4 tds last season and when we watched the film we saw the OL opening holes big enough to drive a car through. So I think there are so many moving parts in football that it takes longer to get things going.
Coaching at a small school where we do not have the luxury of one way players so at the beginning of the season two a days are vital to us getting ready for the season. We also are very fortunate in that we take our team to a local camp ground the first week of practice for camp. During camp we can really stretch the schedule out so we have a big long break in between sessions which I think helps us have very successful double sessions.
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Jul 19, 2010 7:37:27 GMT -6
Back when I got in, football practice started here in our county a week before school started. Most of us had feeble conditioning programs in the summer then also. Then our Jamboree (classics didn't exist either) was at the end of the 1st week of school followed by games. You had to be ready to play in 2 weeks. So, if you didn't have 2-a-days, we had one year of 3-a-days, then you couldn't possibly be ready. However, now, we start practice a month before the "classic" and what Brophy said. There is no need for 2-a-days anymore here, but guys do it anyway just for tradition and to prove how tough they are. It's just not needed anymore since we have a month of practice.
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Post by coachbiggers on Jul 19, 2010 7:47:45 GMT -6
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Post by phantom on Jul 19, 2010 7:58:00 GMT -6
If you platoon maybe there's not as much of a reason for 2-a-days. We have guys going both ways, can't practice until August, and don't have spring ball.
Why would baseball and basketball need 2-a-days? There's only so much that you need to learn in baseball and basketball practices every day anyway (sometimes there's no "Open Gym" on Memorial Day but that's about it).
Of course the simple answer as to why we have 2-a-days in football is because we can. It's summer. There's no school.
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Post by coachbrek on Jul 19, 2010 8:04:17 GMT -6
Two a days were established to get past the required number of practices set by the state associations faster, which in turn lead to some things coaches liked as far as getting things installed faster.
Two a days have more merrit where you need 3-5 practices of conditioning before you can go full contact.
Around here with co-ops, long travel distances, and small grain harvest going on during the first weeks of football, one long session in the morning is what most teams are forced to do.
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Post by buckeye7525 on Jul 19, 2010 10:13:14 GMT -6
I really don't think Two-A-Days are necessarily in the collegiate setting, especially if you have spring ball and kids stay on campus during the summer (like 95% of DI schools do now a days). You can probably use that time to meet and study film and keep your S&C levels up to par.
For HS kids I think you might be able to get away without having them if two platooned your team and made good use of your 10 contact days (thats what we get in Ohio). Now, if you don't have the luxury of two platooning kids (for example we have 30ish 9-12) then you almost have to do get in your offense and defense because kids have to learn double.
I do think it would be feasible for HS to use a 2-1-2 setup that the NCAA mandated a few years ago.
To the original question. As other have said it is an age old tradition, so I am sure that is where alot of it comes from. But also, football may have as many unique skills to it that must be trained that you can't just do in an open gym, which takes alot of time. Sure, kids go out and play touch football but I really doubt my lineman are getting their buddies together to work reach blocks. So I have to spend alot of time on the skill and really teach it. A basketball team gets the advantage of having a full team session at any open gym they go to.
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Post by flexoption91 on Jul 19, 2010 11:03:09 GMT -6
Do any of you guys do the 2-1-2 setup for your two-a-days? If so, what do you like/dislike about it?
I think it could have some merit even on the high school level.
On the one practice days it would give a chance for some classroom or film work. It would give us a chance to get a good lift in.
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Post by xcoachx on Jul 19, 2010 15:58:10 GMT -6
I really don't think Two-A-Days are necessarily in the collegiate setting, especially if you have spring ball and kids stay on campus during the summer (like 95% of DI schools do now a days). You can probably use that time to meet and study film and keep your S&C levels up to par. Disagree completely. One, college schemes tend to be more complicated, thus the need for more practice time. Two, the freshmen can't learn a thing until they are on campus. Coaches can't coach the guys coming in until camp starts (some do, but that's another story altogether). And we use the other time during the day to meet and study film.
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Post by kylem56 on Jul 19, 2010 16:16:21 GMT -6
Do any of you guys do the 2-1-2 setup for your two-a-days? If so, what do you like/dislike about it? I think it could have some merit even on the high school level. On the one practice days it would give a chance for some classroom or film work. It would give us a chance to get a good lift in. We don't do it (I wish we did) but there is a legendary HS coach aorund here who started doing it about 6 or 7 years ago. He's a state champion, hall of famer and hasnt had a losing season since before I was born. They are a small school that doesn't 2 platnoon and has always been know for being a gritty tough football team. I think it would be beneficial to those small schools who have guys go both ways because it would save their legs and reduce chance of injury. If we used the 2-1-2 format I would do something like this: Day 1: regular 2-a-day format, 7:30am-2:00pm (just like a regular school day) Day 2: 7:30am-10:00am regular season practice schedule (we do both Off. and Def. and a ST everyday) 10am-10:50am: Team Lift 11am-11:30am: Show film of today's team sessions Dismissed at 11:30 I think this would keep players/coaches fresher, reduce chance of injuries. What do you guys think?
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Post by airman on Jul 19, 2010 16:31:03 GMT -6
I actually do 3 a days but I was told by my high school coach the primary reasons coaches had two a days is a morning practice and evening practice was heat and to keep them from running around at night. hard to party when you have practice from 6 pm to 9 pm and 7 am to 10 am.
I do 3 a days because we have 3 phases of the game of football. offense, defense and special team. it also tell parents the focus on special teams allows more backups to play special teams. we make special teams special. no starter plays both ways and very few play on special teams. we make special teams so special that during presason each teams gets 30 to 60 minutes practice. for example most years we have 10 guys who just are on ko team, 11 on kor, we even have a punt block team made up to special players this is where starter come into play.
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Post by bucksweepdotcom on Jul 23, 2010 6:39:02 GMT -6
In HS our girls Volleyball team would do doubles, they had a great coach and were very good.
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Post by szimm29 on Jul 23, 2010 8:16:00 GMT -6
At our school it is impossible to condition and install all year round (too small). We want our athletes to participate in sports in the winter and spring; we have to share our athletes or some programs would cease to exist. Summer conditioning and scheme install is difficult as we cant require kids to be at any practice/conditioning session (per state rules). Also, It takes about 4 weeks to get your kids ready(conditioning wise) for a game.
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arbond
Sophomore Member
No "philosophy". Just play.
Posts: 103
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Post by arbond on Jul 23, 2010 8:24:02 GMT -6
Think of sports where you often just throw the ball out there and see what happens: baseball, soccer, lacrosse, etc. They each need to practice scenarios per se, but, not the complicated "orchestration" that happens on EVERY play in football.
The "individual" sports: wrestling, track, swimming, etc.
Now, think of football:
- 30-60 players - each needing reps to some degree.
- 3 phases of play: Offense - Defense - Special Teams
- think of the orchestration that is demanded on each and every play. Other than set basketball plays, think how much each play is coordinated, some down to the exact footwork - the timing - the reads, etc.
This is why we sometimes "need" two-a-days.
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Post by coachorr on Jul 23, 2010 10:14:24 GMT -6
I guess the off shoot of this would then be: If you had the choice of doing two-a-days or one long session, which would you choose and why? The longest session our state will allow is 3 hours. I also think that just the coordination of the special teams' rosters and plays requires several hours of extra practice time.
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Post by jpdaley25 on Jul 23, 2010 12:24:39 GMT -6
Many schools in our area take the whole team away to a camp and do some version of three-a-days. All distractions are removed. Basically you are cramming three weeks of practice into one week. It is one way to get ahead of the competition.
For me, two-a-days is a rite of passage. If you aren't tough enough to make it through our two-a-days, you aren't tough enough to play football here. We make it tough and use it to build pride and unity. Nothing, other than maybe combat, can bond a group of young men like going through a gruelling week of two-days-together. Just my opinion.
P.S. - I was talking to an old-timer the other day who played high school ball in the early 60's. He said they did four weeks of two-a-days, three hour practices each. He could remember every single guy that he played ball with 50 years ago. Later, he served in vietnam. I asked if he could remember all of the guys in his unit. He said he remembered most of them, but not all.
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Post by Chris Clement on Jul 23, 2010 12:49:13 GMT -6
I`mjust wondering, where does the money come from for you guys to take kids off to camps, build outrageous stadia, have fieldhouses, practice fields, pay your assistants, never compete for the field with another sport, run a varsity, JV, freshman, have 7-on-7 stuff, etc. I know some of the coaches here don`t do some or any of this, but some places, in the south mostly, seem to have bottomless resources, and I was wondering where it came from.
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Post by phantom on Jul 23, 2010 13:28:31 GMT -6
I`mjust wondering, where does the money come from for you guys to take kids off to camps, build outrageous stadia, have fieldhouses, practice fields, pay your assistants, never compete for the field with another sport, run a varsity, JV, freshman, have 7-on-7 stuff, etc. I know some of the coaches here don`t do some or any of this, but some places, in the south mostly, seem to have bottomless resources, and I was wondering where it came from. Start a new thread and ask the question, then.
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Post by rpetrie on Jul 23, 2010 15:35:24 GMT -6
My response to the parent would be that time is necessary because there are more positions to be filled on a football team than any other sport. More individualized placement means more evaluation and teaching must take place. In addition to conditioning, scheme...safety of how to contact correctly must also be taken into account. 2-a-days allow for more efficient teaching.
And to follow up an earlier comment about other sports not doing doubles...although we start a week or so earlier than all other fall sports, soccer (B & G), field hockey, volleyball and cross country all meet 2x a day before school starts.
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Post by blb on Jul 23, 2010 15:47:42 GMT -6
First, as we can tell from posts, situations are different from state to state in many ways.
Second, parents (even administrators, others who've never been in "The Arena") have no idea how much needs to be done to play a football game, the intracacies involved, how it must be organized to the 'nth' degree - just to have a chance to win.
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msalazar51
Junior Member
"Believing that 95% commitment is okay results in 100% failure."
Posts: 305
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Post by msalazar51 on Jul 24, 2010 10:52:08 GMT -6
I do 3 a days because we have 3 phases of the game of football. offense, defense and special team. it also tell parents the focus on special teams allows more backups to play special teams. we make special teams special. no starter plays both ways and very few play on special teams. we make special teams so special that during preseason each teams gets 30 to 60 minutes practice. for example most years we have 10 guys who just are on ko team, 11 on kor, we even have a punt block team made up to special players this is where starter come into play. I have worked hard at creating "three sides of the ball" and have had the community, players, admin, and coaches against this! What is the matter with these people? In a system such as this there are around "40 starters!" Eleven on offense, eleven on defense and 15 - 18 on special teams. I guess people are just fine if you have 50 kids with 14 - 18 starters in the whole program!? As for the multi-practice days, we do two-a-days for five days to get the mandatory conditioning time taken care of, we are required to have five practices before we can put on pads.
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Post by thakatalyst on Jul 24, 2010 18:18:08 GMT -6
I guess the off shoot of this would then be: If you had the choice of doing two-a-days or one long session, which would you choose and why? I would choose 2 sessions as opposed to a marathon practice session. A lot of it has to do with focus. Mine more than theirs
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