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Post by carookie on Apr 26, 2010 19:52:59 GMT -6
Recently our D-Line coach went to a meeting where he had his mind changed about our slanting techniques. I was a fan of our previous technique, and do not at all agree with the new ways of doing things he plans to implement. However, as the Frosh head coach I fall below him on the pecking order. I presented my case but this new technique is similar to what he played (so to no avail).
Here's the thing, I don't really feel like coaching something I feel to be wrong, anyone else been through this? What did you all do?
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Post by drewdawg265 on Apr 26, 2010 20:33:07 GMT -6
Go with what the head coach wants. He has final say. If you presented your case I am sure you were heard. If the technique is not effective at the varsity level I m sure your HC will change the coaching points. You may be right about the technique and you may be wrong. Time will tell but I would be upset with my freshman coach if he did his own thing rather than what technique I wanted taught.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 26, 2010 20:42:58 GMT -6
carookie...define "wrong".
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Post by carookie on Apr 26, 2010 22:01:17 GMT -6
Wrong as in putting our players in a bad position, I think the technique is ineffective.
I'm sure we'll still win games (we have a ton of talent), and I'll always do whatever the head man wants us to do. The thing is I've coached a lot of different things and have worked for a number of different coaches and have been able to buy in to what they wanted. This just feels different; as much as I try I can't seem to see the benefits of this.
That's what I was wondering, have any of you coached something that you don't agree with and how did it turn out for you?
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Post by cdt0999 on Apr 26, 2010 22:23:41 GMT -6
I think we all coach something we don't always agree with (or at least are looking to improve upon). There are multiple techniques and schemes to stop an opponent from scoring--like drewdawg265 stated--the head coach is the final decision maker in deciding what your program will emphasize.
It's imperative for the growth of the program that each coach take it upon themselves to continue to learn new methods. It is the staff (led by the Head Coaches final decision) to discuss them. Besides if I had Ray Lewis on my high school defense it wouldn't matter what techniques I taught the rest of my kids!
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Post by k on Apr 27, 2010 6:01:31 GMT -6
If you feel that strongly about it than find another place to coach where you will be able to teach the DL technique that you want.
In our program our HC would tell you "See the DC" and our DC would say "Do what the line coach wants."
A thought is that you could always teach both techniques (of course approved by whoever has that authority).
What is the specific techniques that we are debating here?
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Post by brophy on Apr 27, 2010 7:43:39 GMT -6
if you are a coach, you are: - passionate about the game
- intensely competitive
these don't always help when put together and meshed with other people on staff. Accept that for what it is (and understand that these two factors can give you a false sense of reality because they are tied so heavily with your emotions). If you have the luxury of packing up your tent and pitching it elsewhere, there is no reason why you shouldn't try to be happy somewhere else. If you don't have that scenario available, then suck it up and let it go. We can find all points of minutiae within teaching the game to get defensive and argue, but you have to serve the best interests of the program at all times. If the HC has made a decision, STFU and get on board.
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Post by sandstorm on Apr 27, 2010 8:41:00 GMT -6
dcohio is dead on correct.
I was a first year DC for a first year HC. Our defense carried us that year. We played a bunch of sophomores (9), but they were scrappers. Our offense averaged 4 fumbles a game, because it was our first year to implement the triple option. At the end of the year, the first year HC calls me in and tells me that he wants me to change the defense. He felt that with the aggressiveness and passion that our kids had for defense, it was affecting their energy levels on offense. No lie. I sat there with my jaw on the floor. He wanted me to go to a "bend don't break" defense. I told him to go "flute" himself. I told him that I preach to the kids that either your "all in, or all out" and I was not "all in" with this decision. Needless to say, I ended up leaving a place that I loved, and that loved me. I took a job as a DC at a bottom dweller, and had to endure a 2-8 season. My old team went to a "bend don't break" defense and averaged giving up 39 points a game, no lie. The next year, I got a break and hooked up with a great friend of mine that knew my philosophy and passion. He hired me as his Asst HC/DC at a bigtime program and we have been slaying teams since. However, this past season my old coach from that first year called me asking me to come "coach up" his new DC with my defense. I did it because I still felt a since of loyalty to him, for whatever reason. They went 3 rounds deep with those sophomores (which are now seniors). I went to their playoff game, and I still wanted to be there, even though I was happy with my current job. I make twice as much money, but this place just was a great fit for me. The kids, the community, and the small town football passion.
To this day, I regret not thinking it through. I am not one to look back and have regrets, but this is one that I have.
The point is, think it through. I went through a year of hell all because I let my pride and ego get in the way, and in the process those kids that I loved so dearly suffered. Sometimes it's chess, not checkers and in the end, if you "do right", things will work out in your favor.
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Post by wolfden12 on Apr 27, 2010 8:47:43 GMT -6
Tough situation Sandstorm. I would have done the same thing.
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Post by phantom on Apr 27, 2010 9:03:42 GMT -6
dcohio is dead on correct. I was a first year DC for a first year HC. Our defense carried us that year. We played a bunch of sophomores (9), but they were scrappers. Our offense averaged 4 fumbles a game, because it was our first year to implement the triple option. At the end of the year, the first year HC calls me in and tells me that he wants me to change the defense. He felt that with the aggressiveness and passion that our kids had for defense, it was affecting their energy levels on offense. No lie. I sat there with my jaw on the floor. He wanted me to go to a "bend don't break" defense. I told him to go "flute" himself. I told him that I preach to the kids that either your "all in, or all out" and I was not "all in" with this decision. Needless to say, I ended up leaving a place that I loved, and that loved me. I took a job as a DC at a bottom dweller, and had to endure a 2-8 season. My old team went to a "bend don't break" defense and averaged giving up 39 points a game, no lie. The next year, I got a break and hooked up with a great friend of mine that knew my philosophy and passion. He hired me as his Asst HC/DC at a bigtime program and we have been slaying teams since. However, this past season my old coach from that first year called me asking me to come "coach up" his new DC with my defense. I did it because I still felt a since of loyalty to him, for whatever reason. They went 3 rounds deep with those sophomores (which are now seniors). I went to their playoff game, and I still wanted to be there, even though I was happy with my current job. I make twice as much money, but this place just was a great fit for me. The kids, the community, and the small town football passion. To this day, I regret not thinking it through. I am not one to look back and have regrets, but this is one that I have. The point is, think it through. I went through a year of hell all because I let my pride and ego get in the way, and in the process those kids that I loved so dearly suffered. Sometimes it's chess, not checkers and in the end, if you "do right", things will work out in your favor. I would have left, too. I don't see this situation as being similar to the OP's. Its one thing to get worked up about a technique or a play. When you work with others you have to compromise. This was a philosophical difference, though. As I read that, the HC is telling me, "Defense isn't as important as offense". I don't think I could work there.
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Post by 42falcon on Apr 27, 2010 9:09:27 GMT -6
I agree you need to mesh philosophicaly with the staff. If you can't then move on you will be happier in the end.
Howevere when it comes to technique find out as much as you can about the new technique. There has to be a reason why the coach has adopted that. Something must have happened for him to change his mind. Take your time and talk with others read and reaserch. Maybe it's not so bad after all.
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Post by sandstorm on Apr 27, 2010 9:16:16 GMT -6
dcohio is dead on correct. I was a first year DC for a first year HC. Our defense carried us that year. We played a bunch of sophomores (9), but they were scrappers. Our offense averaged 4 fumbles a game, because it was our first year to implement the triple option. At the end of the year, the first year HC calls me in and tells me that he wants me to change the defense. He felt that with the aggressiveness and passion that our kids had for defense, it was affecting their energy levels on offense. No lie. I sat there with my jaw on the floor. He wanted me to go to a "bend don't break" defense. I told him to go "flute" himself. I told him that I preach to the kids that either your "all in, or all out" and I was not "all in" with this decision. Needless to say, I ended up leaving a place that I loved, and that loved me. I took a job as a DC at a bottom dweller, and had to endure a 2-8 season. My old team went to a "bend don't break" defense and averaged giving up 39 points a game, no lie. The next year, I got a break and hooked up with a great friend of mine that knew my philosophy and passion. He hired me as his Asst HC/DC at a bigtime program and we have been slaying teams since. However, this past season my old coach from that first year called me asking me to come "coach up" his new DC with my defense. I did it because I still felt a since of loyalty to him, for whatever reason. They went 3 rounds deep with those sophomores (which are now seniors). I went to their playoff game, and I still wanted to be there, even though I was happy with my current job. I make twice as much money, but this place just was a great fit for me. The kids, the community, and the small town football passion. To this day, I regret not thinking it through. I am not one to look back and have regrets, but this is one that I have. The point is, think it through. I went through a year of hell all because I let my pride and ego get in the way, and in the process those kids that I loved so dearly suffered. Sometimes it's chess, not checkers and in the end, if you "do right", things will work out in your favor. I would have left, too. I don't see this situation as being similar to the OP's. Its one thing to get worked up about a technique or a play. When you work with others you have to compromise. This was a philosophical difference, though. As I read that, the HC is telling me, "Defense isn't as important as offense". I don't think I could work there. Your exactly right, it was most definatley philosophical. However, the point I was trying to make is for him to think this entire thing through. The bottom line is you can't change people. You can state your case, your beliefs, your techniques, but as long as there is somebody in charge other than yourself, you either have to conform or move on. I would highly consider to think all the pro's and con's through before uprooting and leaving. It worked out for me, but even today I felt like I quit on those kids. Just my advice.
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Post by blb on Apr 27, 2010 9:21:01 GMT -6
Late in Jud Heathcote's career at Michigan State, he told Tom Izzo, "I know you're right, but I'm too old to change now, so we're going to do it my way."
Izzo stayed. Seems to have worked out okay.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2010 9:28:05 GMT -6
Yeah, Sandstorm's situation is different in that it is about an entire philosophy as opposed to a technique that will be used only when slanting. I can't see myself getting so worked up about a technique that I would stop coaching or looking for a new coaching job.
I don't like shoulder blocking, but it's the technique my HC wants the lineman to utilize. After coaching shoulder blocking last year, I still don't like it but I'm not going to leave my job over it, either.
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Apr 27, 2010 9:34:13 GMT -6
Wrong as in putting our players in a bad position, I think the technique is ineffective. I'm sure we'll still win games (we have a ton of talent), and I'll always do whatever the head man wants us to do. The thing is I've coached a lot of different things and have worked for a number of different coaches and have been able to buy in to what they wanted. This just feels different; as much as I try I can't seem to see the benefits of this. That's what I was wondering, have any of you coached something that you don't agree with and how did it turn out for you? Yes- I coach and have coached things that I didn't necessarily agree with and all it does is expand your knowledge, make you more humble, and maybe teach you something new. Listen- I played and coached in college, and have coached in high school for several years now. When I made the transition from college to HS I had a sense of "football logic"- certain aspects of football that should remain true regardless of level. It took me about 2 games in as an OC to realize that HS defenses can and will play the dumbest/most unsound sets against us AND there's a possibility of them getting away with it. I literally had to throw all of my "football logic" out of the window and accept these facts. At points I was asked to do things that fundamentally I don't agree with, but until I'm the HC I do them. As others have said- be a good assistant and do as you're told. Don't leave unless you already have another place to go.
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Post by wingtol on Apr 27, 2010 9:35:40 GMT -6
I look at it this way. If you are on the lower levels I hate to say it you do what he HC and position coaches tell you to do. Your job is to get those kids ready to move up the ranks, so if you are teaching something different then it is counter productive by the time they reach the varsity level.
Now if you are a varsity position coach and the HC says I want you to do it this way then you have the opportunity to plead your case and try and work it out. Also I think before you take a job that whole issue should be discussed before you commit to coach. Now you also have to be open to improving your knowledge and looking at different ways to do things. But if you know before you are hired that the HC wants it this way and it isn't going to change then maybe it's not the best fit for you.
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Post by carookie on Apr 27, 2010 9:41:30 GMT -6
Thanks everyone for the insight and advice, it was helpful. I half expected to be criticized for my frustration but it seems like ya'll understand and were able to give me some helpful info. So thanks.
PS I just spent the better portion of my prep arguing my point- once again with limited success.
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Post by groundchuck on Apr 27, 2010 10:03:08 GMT -6
DO what you gotta do.
But if you stick around you better be able to sell what the HC wants and do it. Be on the same page. If not all parties are better off to part ways.
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Post by sandstorm on Apr 27, 2010 10:04:42 GMT -6
Thanks everyone for the insight and advice, it was helpful. I half expected to be criticized for my frustration but it seems like ya'll understand and were able to give me some helpful info. So thanks. PS I just spent the better portion of my prep arguing my point- once again with limited success. Like I said, the sooner you realize that you can't change people the better off your sanity will be. He is just as passionate about his technique as you are. He is the boss, take it as a positive and learn a new technique or move on.
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Post by Coach JR on Apr 27, 2010 10:15:10 GMT -6
carookie...define "wrong". Kinda what I was thinking.
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Post by gpoulin76 on Apr 27, 2010 11:22:57 GMT -6
Million ways to skin a cat...the key to winning is that everyone on the team is skinning it the same way.
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red
Freshmen Member
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Post by red on Apr 27, 2010 11:33:57 GMT -6
What would you tell a player if he disagreed with something you wanted him to do. And who knows you might learn something new.
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Post by dubber on Apr 27, 2010 12:13:20 GMT -6
I'm pretty sure my OC can get very tired of me.........
I have an idea......I pitch it, I give reasons why it works with what we do, etc., and when he says no, I move on.
Period.
Now, I've earned the right to openly disagree with him, but I always am respectful and end up behind him 100% in whatever we do......because the next time, I still want him to be open to listening.
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Post by blb on Apr 27, 2010 12:34:55 GMT -6
Coaching 101 = Do not argue in front of squad, hash out disagreements in private. That's what staff meetings are for.
And once decision has been made and meeting is over, put on a united front.
Head coach is not always right, but he is always the head coach.
If it comes to the point where you just have too many philosophical differences that you can't support the boss, then you have a decision to make.
How our defensive linemen are slanting wouldn't be the tipping point for me.
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Post by oguru on Apr 27, 2010 14:54:07 GMT -6
Last spring when I took a OC job with a friend of mine at a HS in south florida. The D-Line coach told me a play they ran back in the 70's. I said thats great coach but how does it fit with what we do. He said it doesn't. I told the entire staff the weekend before we started spring ball that if you have an idea for offense I will listen to it, and then ask them the following question. 1. How does it fit what we do with our personnel? 2. Who runs it successfully 3. Can you show me cut ups of this team or teams running it successfully If the answer to any of those is I don't know then I am not going to bother with it. I believe that you have to do some research on things before you go putting it in. The D-line coach because he is much older then me kept coming to me with this play and his answer to the questions were I don't know and I told him that without a positive answer to those questions I can't run it. The HC agreed and the D-Line coach said {censored} YOU ALL and left the room. With my new position at the college I am at the HC has the same rule. If it doesn;t fit into the philosophy that has been established since 2005, and it doesn;t fit the personnel and you don't have film of it, then we won't run it. Bottom line the HC and the coordinators are the boss. Before anyone brings up an idea they need to have doen some research on it and have film cut ups of it. Obviously at the college level it's easy to get quality cut ups of everything. Bottom line DO WHAT YOUR HEAD COACH AND OC OR DC SAYS
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Post by airman on Apr 27, 2010 15:07:21 GMT -6
# 2 rule of success Never Take ANYTHING PERSONALLY
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Post by trd1 on Apr 27, 2010 20:35:44 GMT -6
You might find out by coaching the new tec it works better than you think. don't be a hard head brfore your a head coach!
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Post by coachcb on Apr 28, 2010 8:07:56 GMT -6
There are always going to be things that you disagree with as an assistant, on some level. I coached OL in a program where the HC just wanted us to secure the first level; even on what should be combo blocks. It wasn't working and we struggled to run between the tackles because he wouldn't let me rep combo blocks. He wanted straight double teams; taking the DL into the second level and cutting off flow.
Did I agree with this? NO. Did it work for us? NO. Would he give on it? NO. Was it sound? NO.
Now, we were still successful; our pass pro was solid and the OL was very good at blocking the perimeter on sweep plays. However, I still took a ton of grief over the fact that we didn't run Power, Counter and Iso well. But, I bit my tongue and repped the h-ll out of those straight double straight double teams. By the end of the season, we could manage a few yards between the tackles when we needed it.
Now, what you are describing is a much simpler technique; slanting and running long sticks can be run several different ways. With reps, the DL will pick up on it and you'll still be successful. So, the bottom line is simple; if you disagree with something, but it works, calm down.
Also, I agree with dcohio; if you're going to create a conflict over something like this then you should probably leave. There may be situations down the road that are FAR more difficult to deal with (as I described above) and you're going to have run whatever the HC lays out for you.
But, remember, if you resign over something like this, you're putting yourself in a bad situation professionally. It's going to be tough to get another assistant job if another HC catches wind of the fact that you left because of a DL slanting technique.
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Post by windigo on Apr 28, 2010 10:05:05 GMT -6
I had a similar situation my 2nd year.
Remember you may be lower on the totem pole but you are still the position coach and the performance of your players at your position reflects more on you than your head coach. Coaching a technique you know will fail will reflect on you when it fails. When you go out to get a new job and they look at the game film from your last job or know you by reputation your reputation will suffer.
My 2nd year I moved up to varsity o-line coach. The problem was the head coach was also a former o-line coach and even played pro. I learned a valuable lesson that year. Avoid position where the head coach came from your position because you well never be a full position coach. I couldn’t start the line that I wanted to start. I couldn't run the pass pro I wanted to run. I couldn't use the technique I wanted to use. I couldn’t use the drills I wanted to use.
The new OC was a shotgun spread guy. The head coach was an under center power running game 3 step guy. The OC didn't really understand pass pro and the head coach still wanted to run his 3 step pass pro for shot gun which I knew would fail. But I couldn't get him to listen and the OC wasn't going to get under center with a 3 step game. So after winning our 1st game the next team we played that was well coach looked at our game film and decimated our pass pro which I knew would happen. And boy was it brutal.
But guess who got most of the blame for that monumental failure? Me! Not the OC who insisted to go spread without a pass pro idea. Not the head coach who insisted on an under center 3 step pass pro for spread. Me. The only guy who was arguing for a pass pro and personell that complemented the offense. In the end that failure reflected on me and my ability as a line coach.
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Post by sandstorm on Apr 28, 2010 10:11:25 GMT -6
I had a similar situation my 2nd year. Remember you may be lower on the totem pole but you are still the position coach and the performance of your players at your position reflects more on you than your head coach. Coaching a technique you know will fail will reflect on you when it fails. When you go out to get a new job and they look at the game film from your last job or know you by reputation your reputation will suffer. My 2nd year I moved up to varsity o-line coach. The problem was the head coach was also a former o-line coach and even played pro. I learned a valuable lesson that year. Avoid position where the head coach came from your position because you well never be a full position coach. I couldn’t start the line that I wanted to start. I couldn't run the pass pro I wanted to run. I couldn't use the technique I wanted to use. I couldn’t use the drills I wanted to use. The new OC was a shotgun spread guy. The head coach was an under center power running game 3 step guy. The OC didn't really understand pass pro and the head coach still wanted to run his 3 step pass pro for shot gun which I knew would fail. But I couldn't get him to listen and the OC wasn't going to get under center with a 3 step game. So after winning our 1st game the next team we played that was well coach looked at our game film and decimated our pass pro which I knew would happen. And boy was it brutal. But guess who got most of the blame for that monumental failure? Me! Not the OC who insisted to go spread without a pass pro idea. Not the head coach who insisted on an under center 3 step pass pro for spread. Me. The only guy who was arguing for a pass pro and personell that complemented the offense. In the end that failure reflected on me and my ability as a line coach. This falls under the same category my situation did, a difference in philosophy. The lesson I learned. When interviewing for a position, you need to interview the Head Coach to see if he is a guy YOU want to work for.
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