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Post by brian94 on Oct 27, 2009 6:12:28 GMT -6
Do you think the JV should run the same offense and defense as the Varsity.
What are your opinions on the subject, I feel that as long as kids are playing and learning base skills that they dont have to be the same. I also think that is should be with in reason, if the varsity is running spread then the JV shouldnt be running double wing.
Does anybody feel strongly one way or the other?
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Post by coachweav88 on Oct 27, 2009 6:27:44 GMT -6
I think for the most part, they should run the same thing so that kids can be ready for Friday nights in the next season. I do think you can tweak what the varsity does a little, but nothing crazy. Sometimes we experiment with stuff that we are thinking about for the varsity level. For instance, at the JV level, we have experimented with Ted Seay's deep safety concept and have had some success with it. This week, the varsity may use it as a change up.
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Post by lucassean2 on Oct 27, 2009 6:45:17 GMT -6
The Varsity coaches should tell the Jv guys what basic plays need to be implemented. Once they are mastered then the JV coaches should have freedom to try their own ideas.
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Post by morris on Oct 27, 2009 6:45:20 GMT -6
I think they should run the same system but that does not mean they are a carbon copy. So the focus of the system might be different (QB is a better runner or passer on the JV level) but it is the same offense.
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Post by lochness on Oct 27, 2009 6:48:43 GMT -6
I 100% feel the JV should be running what the V runs. They are part of the same program in the same school. The coaches are members of the same staff. It's not like the Jr. High or Youth teams running something different...which is a different situation.
The JV program's sole purpose is to develop players for varsity football mentally, physically and emotionally...and to have fun doing it so they want to work hard and keep playing.
Our JV coach is awesome. He is very good and very patient with the kids. He runs our systems on O and D. Sure, he may install a play or two that we don't run, and that's FINE because it's all stuff that would logically fit within our system and allows him to exercise his creativity as a coach.
If anything, THAT's how it should be done.
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Post by airraider on Oct 27, 2009 6:49:35 GMT -6
Do you think the JV should run the same offense and defense as the Varsity. What are your opinions on the subject, I feel that as long as kids are playing and learning base skills that they dont have to be the same. I also think that is should be with in reason, if the varsity is running spread then the JV shouldnt be running double wing. Does anybody feel strongly one way or the other? Why would you not run the same thing? A. this makes me feel that the JV coach does not agree/believe in what the varsity is doing.. B. It creates problems for those JV kids who may move up next year to a program that might not do as well.. now you end up with kids who are second guessing the varsity staff with the "why are we running this? we should be running what we ran last year".. C. If you are simply trying to prepare them with base skills.. then why does the scheme matter? It may matter at the higher level because that is what the HC believes in, but at the JV level.. why does it matter? Your job is to prepare them for varsity.. period.. |
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Post by redandwhite on Oct 27, 2009 7:08:28 GMT -6
This should be the biggest no-brainer ever. You are talking about a Football PROGRAM. The word program clearly means that things are done the same throughout. As others stated, personnel is going to determine what elements of the scheme are emphasized, at any level, but it MUST be emphasized that this is "what we do". Any good system has the ability to adjust and adapt to personnel. We have a grade level insertion plan that lays out the minimum elements of our schemes that must be taught. Coaches at pre-varsity levels are instructed that any thing they want to add must be cleared by the varsity coordinators to be sure that it fits within our basic philosophy and that the terminology used is consistent with the system. It is clearly stated in my Coaches' Expectations that not teaching our schemes will result in not being renewed on our staff.
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Post by coachorr on Oct 27, 2009 7:15:01 GMT -6
Do they print the JV scores in the paper? Is there a championship trophy for JV? Then do what is best for the program. If the V runs a gun offense and the JV has trouble with the snap, go under center until the JV can get the snap down.
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Post by rcole on Oct 27, 2009 7:15:39 GMT -6
Not only should the JV run what the Varsity runs, but so should the C-Team (freshman) and the middle schools, and if possible the youth league. They don't have to run everything that the varsity runs. But they should use the terminology and install a set of base plays. After that they can add their own few plays to the mix that the varsity does not run. Heck, we practice varsity and JV together and the varsity coaches ARE the JV coaches, so they run everything exactly the way the varsity does. And every JV kid is 100% ready to be pulled up as a back up for varsity. No new teaching necessary. When you have the feeders teaching the system it allows varsity to be about perfecting it instead of installing it new every year.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Oct 27, 2009 7:22:07 GMT -6
no brainer
jv players should be learning and applying varsity plays, terminology, technique, philosophy, values etc.
only reason jv exhists is to feed varsity ready players. period.
now, regarding ms and lower levels, thats not hs football so its not as much of an issue. it is an issue if i need a left tackle and my only choice is to pull up a 10th grader from jv and hes got no clue what "brown 987 f flat" means because they dont run that.
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Post by formrbcbuc on Oct 27, 2009 7:34:38 GMT -6
JV should run the basic play and formations of the varsity on offense to prepare the players for varsity, if the JV can grasp the more coplex pay calls then it is up to the JV coaches to decide which of these plays they'll use. I think it is ok thugh to game plan a play or two that might not be in the varsity script depending on th opponent. I believe that the Frosh squad should follow this rule of thought, it has always bugged me when a frosh squad runs mostly out of shotgun and the varsity is a wing-t team and vice versa.
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Post by Wingtman on Oct 27, 2009 7:37:33 GMT -6
As a middle HC, I try to run what the Varsity runs. We took 0 snaps under center, used the exact same terminology as the do at the higher levels and try to be a "mini varsity".
I've used some creative licence to run some two back stuff and some empty stuff, but all out of the base varsity package. Your doing the kids a disservice by not teaching them a simple version of the varsity package. HOWEVER, your doing yourself a diservice if you dont try one or two things of your own to help yourself grow.
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Post by CoachCP on Oct 27, 2009 7:42:51 GMT -6
I'm our school's JV Head Coach, and we run a much scaled down version of the varsity offense.
We have 4 of the base running plays out of 6. We have 6 out of 9 total passing plays. The JV guys are relatively familiar with the concepts of the 5 plays we do not run, they just do not know all the details. We got 45 minutes of practice time a week due to numbers, and the fact that we had that much installed bothered me because I felt it was a lot.
We did tweak it though, while keeping it in the same system. When we had a very athletic QB, we used more gun and emphasized more of the read. When he quit in the middle of the season, we moved to more of an undercenter look as that fit our offense better. We nearly mastered the quick passing game. We were experts in our two bread and butter plays.
We also emphasized different things. We used unbalanced lines and unique adjustments to the formations (which are within our overall system) in order to create artificial offense. With only 45 minutes of practice time and minimal skill position talent, I had to really manufacture scoring drives. Unfortunately, with only 45 minutes to install or cover a game plan for offense, defense, and special teams a week with these kids, this opportunity was minimal.
Defensively, we run a very scaled down version of our defense with 3 coverages. 3,2, and 1. We mix in some blitzes.
So I believe you can be creative. However, you should stay within the system.
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Post by rcole on Oct 27, 2009 7:54:27 GMT -6
The Byrnes program, which is a nationally ranked program in our area, practices JV with varsity like I said we do. Byrnes runs the exact same systems on their freshman teams, although I 'm sure they just run less of it. The HC at the high school hires the two middle school coaches. They will have around 100 to 150 kids at the two middle schools running a simplified version of their system. The varsity coaches actually work with the C-Team and Middle Schools once a week, actually coaching them themselves. The youth league in the district all feeds into the one high school. The youth programs run the Byrnes system as well. A senior in their program may have heard the same terminology and run the same plays since he was six years old. That would be more than ten years experience in the system. Formations, routes, audibles, run blocking schemes, reads, stunts, blitzes, etc. Quite a football factory they have.
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Post by jgordon1 on Oct 27, 2009 8:06:33 GMT -6
One program..One system...That being said our Frosh and JV will adjust the system to their talent level
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Post by brophy on Oct 27, 2009 8:12:48 GMT -6
WHAAAAAT?
what on earth could you possibly gain by running something other than what Varsity runs?
WHO CARES if you win games?
Get those kids ready to play NOW! If they can play in JV, then maybe that kid can play at Varsity.
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Post by wingt74 on Oct 27, 2009 8:21:31 GMT -6
WHAAAAAT?what on earth could you possibly gain by running something other than what Varsity runs? WHO CARES if you win games? Get those kids ready to play NOW! If they can play in JV, then maybe that kid can play at Varsity. The kids care. The parents care. Lets play out a scenario. Varsity has a stud QB and WR. JV has a Stud RB. Varisty throws the ball 50-70% of the time. JV has to throw the ball just because varisty throws the ball. JV gets blasted game after game. Stud JV RB quits, parents are fed up with the program. Players are less dedicated for their varsity season because their team is getting beat bad. Weight room starts to empty. Parents don't buy as much team apparel. Hell, even the kicker goes back to soccer. yeah, use the exact same terminology, same holes, same cadence, same practice...but if varisty isn't running a 26 trap because their HB sucks...does that mean JV can't run it? Now, no, JV DW coach shouldn't be running DW when Var runs spread...but there has to be some give and take. |
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Post by brian94 on Oct 27, 2009 8:22:43 GMT -6
Basically the theme is to run a scaled down version and try to fit your talent to the system, which is what I think should be run. Our Varsity is a shotgun team, we run both formations they do and we also run some Pro I and Twins.
Does it make a difference if the 'Programs' offense has changed 5 times in the last 5 years?
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Post by airraider on Oct 27, 2009 8:33:01 GMT -6
WHAAAAAT?what on earth could you possibly gain by running something other than what Varsity runs? WHO CARES if you win games? Get those kids ready to play NOW! If they can play in JV, then maybe that kid can play at Varsity. The kids care. The parents care. Lets play out a scenario. Varsity has a stud QB and WR. JV has a Stud RB. Varisty throws the ball 50-70% of the time. JV has to throw the ball just because varisty throws the ball. JV gets blasted game after game. Stud JV RB quits, parents are fed up with the program. Players are less dedicated for their varsity season because their team is getting beat bad. Weight room starts to empty. Parents don't buy as much team apparel. Hell, even the kicker goes back to soccer. yeah, use the exact same terminology, same holes, same cadence, same practice...but if varisty isn't running a 26 trap because their HB sucks...does that mean JV can't run it? Now, no, JV DW coach shouldn't be running DW when Var runs spread...but there has to be some give and take. Hard to believe the stud RB wouldnt be good enough to be in line in front of 3rd string varsity RB.. |
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Post by airraider on Oct 27, 2009 8:35:55 GMT -6
Basically the theme is to run a scaled down version and try to fit your talent to the system, which is what I think should be run. Our Varsity is a shotgun team, we run both formations they do and we also run some Pro I and Twins. Does it make a difference if the 'Programs' offense has changed 5 times in the last 5 years? Do what you "can" in the boundries set by the coach. When I first started coaching, I was the freshmen coach. We were a Delaware Wing-T team.. and we ran what the varsity ran.. but.. we opened up a little.. still used everything that the varsity "might" run.. Of course with the Delaware system you could use tags and end up in a shotgun spread formation.. "Gun Loose Doubles" |
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Post by blb on Oct 27, 2009 8:39:49 GMT -6
All successful HS programs have "Vertical Continuity."
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Post by rcole on Oct 27, 2009 8:46:30 GMT -6
wingt74, any varsity system that does not have built in flexibility that allows for play calling to emphasize the plays that your personnel are best at is not much of a system at all. If our JV was in that situation, and we are a spread-I guess you would call us Air Raid type-offense, we do run the zone, short trap, long trap, power, sweep, that would allow a stud RB to be our feature player. We might call those plays more with the stud. That is just smart coaching and your offense should be flexible enough to cater to your kid's talents. That is not an issue that would have ever crossed my mind because it is a given...common sense. Byrnes has thrown it 50 times in a game and they have run it 40 times in a game. Depends on several things including personnel. I guess if your system sucks then everything else is moot.
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Post by airraider on Oct 27, 2009 8:51:38 GMT -6
wingt74, any varsity system that does not have built in flexibility that allows for play calling to emphasize the plays that your personnel are best at is not much of a system at all. If our JV was in that situation, and we are a spread-I guess you would call us Air Raid type-offense, we do run the zone, short trap, long trap, power, sweep, that would allow a stud RB to be our feature player. We might call those plays more with the stud. That is just smart coaching and your offense should be flexible enough to cater to your kid's talents. That is not an issue that would have ever crossed my mind because it is a given...common sense. Byrnes has thrown it 50 times in a game and they have run it 40 times in a game. Depends on several things including personnel. I guess if your system sucks then everything else is moot. Exactly.. we like to throw it as much as anyone.. but we do have an I portion of our playbook with trap, blast, toss, counter.. as well as all of those things from the Gun.. |
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Post by phantom on Oct 27, 2009 8:55:08 GMT -6
Do you think the JV should run the same offense and defense as the Varsity. What are your opinions on the subject, I feel that as long as kids are playing and learning base skills that they dont have to be the same. I also think that is should be with in reason, if the varsity is running spread then the JV shouldnt be running double wing. Does anybody feel strongly one way or the other? Yes, the JVs definitely should run the same system as the catsity. |
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Post by mariner42 on Oct 27, 2009 10:07:23 GMT -6
We had an interesting issue last year in that the JV HC/OC was running our varsity's offense (Fly) but he was doing it more creatively, more aggressively, and ultimately with more success than the varsity. However, he was criticized, demonized, and scorned because he wasn't running 'what we do', even though it was thematically similar but not exactly the same.
From outside the situation I thought what the JV OC was running was brilliant and showed the necessary direction for us to go as an offense, but he was fired and more or less blackballed from our program, even though he was still running the fly.
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Post by coachcb on Oct 27, 2009 10:25:31 GMT -6
1. The program should have a base package of plays and blocking schemes. The JV should be running that base package, no way around it. In most programs that package is reasonably well balanced.
2. The kids should be plugged into the system, not the other way around.
3. It comes down to play calling; if you have a great JV WR, call plays that get him the ball. If you have a stud TB, find ways to get him the ball.
I coached in a veer system that was very specific and limited with respect to the play book. Yet, every year, we still managed to get the our best athletes the ball. And not just the stud QBs, FBs and TBs, our WRs got alot of effective touches as well.
If you're JV is running something different every year, then how is your Varsity ever going to get better? The JV record doesn't matter, there's no way around it; JV is developmental. Prepare the lower level kids to play Varsity and don't focus on Ws and Ls, or stats.
Who cares if the parents disagree with the scheme or how many touches their kid is getting???
If you are a coach and you don't want to run the Varsity scheme then find somewhere else to coach. And, if you are SOO focused on schemes, then you're probably not focused on fundamentals, because everything in your eyes comes down to Xs and Os. In that case, coaching football may not be the best thing for you to be involved in.
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Post by coachguy83 on Oct 27, 2009 10:32:40 GMT -6
I couldn't agree more with coachcb. The system has to be the same, but the play calling can be different.
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Post by coachorr on Oct 27, 2009 10:41:50 GMT -6
mariner hit the nail on the head: "thematically similar".
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Post by phantom on Oct 27, 2009 10:44:37 GMT -6
Why is this even a discussion?
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Post by hemlock on Oct 27, 2009 10:57:35 GMT -6
The goal of the JV is not necessarily to win. If the JV or Freshman teams win that's all gravy. Very nice and all, but the purpose of JV and Freshman ball is to begin preparing kids to play productively and win at the varsity level. JV players need to develop skills that are essential to what the varsity does. Essentially, the JV should run the same base package on both offense and defense that the varsity run. There should be no need to gameplan for JV games or anything like that. JV and Freshman games are glorified scrimmages - that's it. It is the JV coaches job to convey to his kids that winning at that level is not important; nobody cares. All that matter is that you develop the skill necessary to win at the varsity level.
Also, it is important that the varsity coaches convey this to the JV and Frosh coaches. They need to understand what their role in the program is and how important it is. By the time a kid matriculates up to the varsity he should know the language of the program inside and out, should not need to be told what a given concept or play is, and be ready to be plugged in. If he is not it reflects directly on those coaching him at the JV and Frosh level.
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