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Post by bobgoodman on Oct 28, 2009 18:39:03 GMT -6
I 100% feel the JV should be running what the V runs. They are part of the same program in the same school. The coaches are members of the same staff. It's not like the Jr. High or Youth teams running something different...which is a different situation. I agree with all that. It'd be too much work to have different systems at the same school. I don't think the JV needs to have everything in that the varsity has...maybe a little less. But the varsity should have at least what the JV does. It's not like varsity has any more practice time, but they should need to spend less of it on the basics. But this part... The JV program's sole purpose is to develop players for varsity football mentally, physically and emotionally I disagree with completely. That's just a bonus byproduct when it happens.
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Post by phantom on Oct 28, 2009 18:42:35 GMT -6
I 100% feel the JV should be running what the V runs. They are part of the same program in the same school. The coaches are members of the same staff. It's not like the Jr. High or Youth teams running something different...which is a different situation. I agree with all that. It'd be too much work to have different systems at the same school. I don't think the JV needs to have everything in that the varsity has...maybe a little less. But the varsity should have at least what the JV does. It's not like varsity has any more practice time, but they should need to spend less of it on the basics. But this part... The JV program's sole purpose is to develop players for varsity football mentally, physically and emotionally I disagree with completely. That's just a bonus byproduct when it happens. Sorry, can't go along with that. The JUNIOR Varsity program is there to develop varsity players.
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Post by bobgoodman on Oct 28, 2009 19:01:46 GMT -6
Not only should the JV run what the Varsity runs, but so should the C-Team (freshman) Of course. No, that's taking it too far. They don't share staff, and, practically speaking, they don't share players. (You might share a game field or practice field, but the ground doesn't know the difference.) Even if all the 7-8th grade players went to the same HS, how many of them would still play football there? Let alone the even younger players? And not even considering whether they'd be at the same positions? And if they did wind up "graduating" all the way thru, what are the odds the coaching staff & system would still be the same once they got there? And then what? All that playing on those kiddie teams was just practice? Or tryouts? For when the HS staff got their mitts on them? No. Children's football is an end in itself and should be played on its own terms for nobody else's benefit. Actually I think the same way about JV & frosh w.r.t. varsity, it's just that when it's at a single institution (HS or college) the cx is so close as to make it silly not to share systems.
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Post by bobgoodman on Oct 28, 2009 19:03:57 GMT -6
But this part... The JV program's sole purpose is to develop players for varsity football mentally, physically and emotionally I disagree with completely. That's just a bonus byproduct when it happens. Sorry, can't go along with that. The JUNIOR Varsity program is there to develop varsity players. So I guess you don't keep score in JV "games", they're just scrimmages.
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Post by phantom on Oct 28, 2009 19:09:22 GMT -6
Sorry, can't go along with that. The JUNIOR Varsity program is there to develop varsity players. So I guess you don't keep score in JV "games", they're just scrimmages. We keep score.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 28, 2009 19:17:10 GMT -6
How many of you guys have JV PROGRAMS, separate entities, and how many of you guys have JV GAMES for players who don't play on Friday Nights? I know around here (Southern Louisiana) the majority of situations are the latter. Things are much like Tog Described...one program, one set of coaches, usually a "junior" coach calling offensive and defensive plays for the JV games.
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Post by bobgoodman on Oct 28, 2009 19:17:10 GMT -6
If your JV or Frosh aren't being prepared for varsity and can't be called up in a pinch, then what's the point of even having JV or Frosh teams in the first place? What's the point of having varsity teams? AFAICT, it's so it's not redundant with phys. ed. for the players. Otherwise you're right, there's no reason sports shouldn't just be an after-school activity under the auspices of an entirely separate institution.
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Post by Coach Huey on Oct 28, 2009 19:28:05 GMT -6
Bob Goodman, scientist for hire
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Post by khalfie on Oct 28, 2009 19:55:35 GMT -6
I agree with Bob... not only should frosh and Jv teams be able to run different systems... I would demand it... I wouldn't even let my Frosh and JV teams run the same system... every level would have their own unique systems... that way... when they get to varsity... they will be well versed in two different offenses, allowing them to learn this third, new offense, more efficiently.
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Post by rcole on Oct 28, 2009 21:34:31 GMT -6
I guess things are different everywhere. Like I said before, we don't have JV "programs" we have JV games...don't even know if you would say we have a JV team since there are different players from one week to the next that "dress" and play in the JV game that week. We move people up and down seamlessly as needed. We coach both teams together, we have NO JV STAFF. We just have a football staff.
Ninth grade is a part of our high school. We hire the coaches, issue the equipment, do the eligibility paperwork. We coach the 9th grade players ourselves two days a week for twenty minutes and the 9th grade staff does the rest. Our Varsity special teams coordinator is also our 9th grade OC.
We do not have middle school football at our middle schools, haven't since the move back in the 70's to switch from Jr. High to middle and cut sports. We instead have our own middle school team at each high school. The middle school students who are geo-coded for our schools come over after school and we provide them with the equipment and the opportunity to play football. We run the same systems top to bottom. We also coach these kids 20 minutes twice a week.
There are 14 high schools in my county which is one unified district. There are many youth associations, most of whom carry the same name, mascot, and colors as the high school. Some work with the high schools, some don't. I think the high school coach should be involved in promoting the sport of football at the youth league level. If they run your system fine, if not fine. Most of the youth programs in my area seem to want involvement from he high school coach. In fact, one of the surest ways to get criticized is not to try. It is a bonus if they are wearing your colors and using your mascot as we end up competing for players due to school choice...although recruiting is illegal, kids and parents are almost all looking around and you recruit by just doing things better and being the program they want to be in.
While I agree with your assertion that the youth leagues should exist just for the sake of participation...I think that JV is Junior Varsity as in Varsity feeder as in exists because Varsity exists. If Varsity didn't exist it couldn't be it's Junior.
Like it or not, at least in my area where football is probably taken too seriously...the community expects and demands this type of unified structure. If your not running as a "Program" then they don't think you are trying. In some ways it has become too big a deal and sometimes I think it is a shame. BUT, you won't be a head coach for long, at least here, doing anything less. We do, by the way, have lots of staffs that survive more than 10 years running the same systems.
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Post by coachorr on Oct 28, 2009 21:43:08 GMT -6
JV stands for "Just for Varsity"
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Post by bobgoodman on Oct 29, 2009 11:32:20 GMT -6
I agree with Bob... not only should frosh and Jv teams be able to run different systems... I would demand it... I wouldn't even let my Frosh and JV teams run the same system... every level would have their own unique systems... that way... when they get to varsity... they will be well versed in two different offenses, allowing them to learn this third, new offense, more efficiently. Then how could you be agreeing with me, facetiously or otherwise, when I wrote that frosh, JV, and varsity should run the same system? It's just a matter of knowing where to draw the line, and why. The teams at a single school, unless it's huge, are going to share coaching staff between the teams. Plus, they're sharing players. Apparently at some places a player can go between teams in the same sport even in the same season. It would be a great waste of time & effort to have different systems in use by the different teams. It doesn't mean the freshman coach has to call plays or formations the same way or in the same proportion as the varsity, just that the system they teach will be the same -- same terminology, same techniques, etc. But once you get outside that institution and talk about the junior high schools and the extramural youth teams -- what do you share with them, real estate? There's no economy of scale to be had by their running your system or vice versa, no reason to think your system will be appropriate for players of their age & experience, and no reason to shackle their coaching ideas to yours or yours to theirs. If you cut a player from your frosh, you can't send him down to the minors by attaching him to the local kiddie team, can you?
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Post by coachinghopeful on Oct 29, 2009 23:16:52 GMT -6
I've gotta admit, I think Bob makes a good point about the feeder system outside of the school. It's great if you can get the youth and M.S. teams to go along with what you're doing, but those coaches and players are worried about their own games right now, not the games you're going to play in a few years when maybe 1/3 of those boys have found their way onto your varsity team.
You can't just say "well wins at that level don't matter" any more than the coach at the local big football factory can tell you how to run your program and then say your record doesn't matter because you exist only to groom players for him. Wins at the youth and M.S. level do matter to the kids on those teams and to the coaches and parents on those levels.
Bob, had you really never heard of a kid playing Frosh or JV and moving up to varsity in a season? Where I come from the JV is usually just the varsity players who don't get much playing time in varsity games--mostly Sophomores with some Jrs. and a handful of Srs mixed in too. A lot of those kids are one play away from starting for varsity in any given week. Sometimes freshmen even get pressed into service when numbers get low. How do they do things up there?
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Post by bobgoodman on Oct 30, 2009 9:21:15 GMT -6
You can't just say "well wins at that level don't matter" any more than the coach at the local big football factory can tell you how to run your program and then say your record doesn't matter because you exist only to groom players for him. Wins at the youth and M.S. level do matter to the kids on those teams and to the coaches and parents on those levels. It's a bit of an exaggeration to write this, but what some coaches have been writing even about varsity vs. JV & frosh here is almost like saying that on a wrestling team you'd care only about a wrestler in the heavyweight class, or on a chess team you'd care only about who's playing on top board. It's different because you don't combine scores between JV & varsity games the way scores are combined in wrestling or chess matches. They're probably similar, but I wouldn't know. I'm not affiliated with any school, have coached only youth football (7-16 YO non-school teams), had only vague awareness of the sports teams when I taught as an adjunct at Mercy College, and have played only on club teams. I'm just going by my recollection of my own prep school 40 yrs. ago. (I did try out for JV baseball when I heard they were desperate.) ISTR seniors weren't eligible for JV teams, and that you couldn't move down in a season though maybe you could move up. Might've been a league rule, I don't remember.
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Post by Coach Huey on Oct 30, 2009 10:00:11 GMT -6
... but I wouldn't know. I'm not affiliated with any school, have coached only youth football (7-16 YO non-school teams), had only vague awareness of the sports teams when I taught as an adjunct at Mercy College, and have played only on club teams. I'm just going by my recollection of my own prep school 40 yrs. ago. ... 1,100 posts Bob Goodman, scientist for hire
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Post by phantom on Oct 30, 2009 10:22:41 GMT -6
They're probably similar, but I wouldn't know. I'm not affiliated with any school, have coached only youth football (7-16 YO non-school teams), had only vague awareness of the sports teams when I taught as an adjunct at Mercy College, and have played only on club teams. I'm just going by my recollection of my own prep school 40 yrs. ago. (I did try out for JV baseball when I heard they were desperate.) ISTR seniors weren't eligible for JV teams, and that you couldn't move down in a season though maybe you could move up. Might've been a league rule, I don't remember. That's the problem here. You're writing about something that is completely foreign to you. I almost never post on the youth forum. I have no experience with it so I stay out of it.
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Post by brophy on Oct 30, 2009 10:34:56 GMT -6
no reason to think your system will be appropriate for players of their age & experience, and no reason to shackle their coaching ideas to yours or yours to theirs. and there is no reason to think that changing the offense/defense to suit on season will make that big of a difference in a season. Schemes aren't that big of a deal. The teams that WIN, do so on fundamentals and execution, irregardless of what system being run. So if all things being equal, why not get an economic benefit by also providing continuity of concepts learned? This is a false dichotomy that to win, we HAVE to run something different from Varsity OR we run what the Varsity runs and lose games.
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Post by bobgoodman on Oct 30, 2009 20:13:18 GMT -6
They're probably similar, but I wouldn't know. I'm not affiliated with any school, have coached only youth football (7-16 YO non-school teams), had only vague awareness of the sports teams when I taught as an adjunct at Mercy College, and have played only on club teams. I'm just going by my recollection of my own prep school 40 yrs. ago. (I did try out for JV baseball when I heard they were desperate.) ISTR seniors weren't eligible for JV teams, and that you couldn't move down in a season though maybe you could move up. Might've been a league rule, I don't remember. That's the problem here. You're writing about something that is completely foreign to you. I almost never post on the youth forum. I have no experience with it so I stay out of it. Have you ever heard of a consultant? It's someone who has no advance knowledge of your business, who you tell the facts to and who gives you an answer based on general understanding and application of principles with a fresh approach. I didn't have to know anything about football to answer this question. For football, you could've substituted discussion of lunch preparation and the answer would've been the same because the principles are the same. It would make no sense to prepare different foods for the freshmen, sophs, etc. And it would also make no sense for the junior high school down the street and the local Cub Scout meet to have their menu dictated by what the high school's serving. Recently I did some word processing for a FOAF who was a lawyer and needed emergency help. When I was done, he told me I was better than the experienced legal sec'y he'd hired alongside me, because even though I had no training as a legal sec'y, I figured out what the deltas and pis in his handwritten notes stood for, and she didn't know. I just used my gen'l knowledge and figured out from the context that they stood for "defendant" and "plaintiff". I run into this sort of thing all the time. I sometimes wind up doing other people's jobs just to get the service they should be doing for me. They have a job, they're getting paid, and they have experience -- yet they still don't know what they're doing and I do, even though I don't have the job. I bet many of you have been in a similar position. I also lack credentials required to do lots of jobs I know I could do; I bet many of you have that feeling too. OK, so I don't know the current rules about eligibility for various HS or college teams. So tell me how that makes anything I wrote about the issue wrong. I didn't claim to know the eligibility rules, and I didn't bring them up. I discussed only the subject of this thread because I'm competent to discuss it regardless of experience. I'm not shy about discussing subjects with experienced persons even when I have no direct experience with them. I bet you do have experience in youth football, you just don't acknowledge it. You seem to know football, right? And you've been a youth, right? So put the two together. Think about the things that make a juvenile juvenile and how those relate to football. It's not rocket science.
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Post by bobgoodman on Oct 30, 2009 20:28:16 GMT -6
no reason to think your system will be appropriate for players of their age & experience, and no reason to shackle their coaching ideas to yours or yours to theirs. and there is no reason to think that changing the offense/defense to suit on season will make that big of a difference in a season. Schemes aren't that big of a deal. The teams that WIN, do so on fundamentals and execution, irregardless of what system being run. So if all things being equal, why not get an economic benefit by also providing continuity of concepts learned? This is a false dichotomy that to win, we HAVE to run something different from Varsity OR we run what the Varsity runs and lose games. Who said anything about its being necessary to win? All else being equal, it would just be too much work for the same coaches to teach different systems to the different teams, and too much work for the players to learn them again as they moved up. But if it's not the same coaches and not the same institution, there's not enough gain because few of the players at one will become players at the other while the same scheme is employed, and the coaches are different. Sometimes, though, change is forced on you. At least one of the wrestling holds I was taught in a lower grade was illegal by the time I had wrestling again in a higher grade, and the whole move leading to it had to be modified.
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Post by coachcb on Oct 31, 2009 8:24:16 GMT -6
bobgoodman,
You really have no bearing, no leg to stand on in this conversation. I coach soph and JV ball; if we don't run what the varsity runs, then we would not be the successful programs that we are.
I coached in a program a few years back and the freshman team ran a different system than the varsity, all because the freshman HC 'hated the varsity's Wing T. They ran some goofy spread package completely alien to the varsity's package. When I got there, the next year, the sophomores were terrible, absolutely terrible. This year, after running the system for 2 years, they still struggle on offense, all because they lost one year in a good system.
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Post by bobgoodman on Oct 31, 2009 19:56:27 GMT -6
bobgoodman, You really have no bearing, no leg to stand on in this conversation. I coach soph and JV ball; if we don't run what the varsity runs, then we would not be the successful programs that we are. So let me get this straight. You're telling me I have no leg to stand on, but that you succeed because you do the same thing I say you should do?
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Post by coachcb on Oct 31, 2009 20:43:46 GMT -6
bobgoodman, You really have no bearing, no leg to stand on in this conversation. I coach soph and JV ball; if we don't run what the varsity runs, then we would not be the successful programs that we are. So let me get this straight. You're telling me I have no leg to stand on, but that you succeed because you do the same thing I say you should do? You coach at the youth level, you have no incite because you haven't coached H.S. football. 1. You have said that JV football isn't about developing players for varsity. It is not a bi-product; it is the PURPOSE of the JV program, whether you have a completely separate staff or not. 2. I will take this a step further; if you have middle schools that feed directly into the high school, they should be running the basics of the high school system as well. Again, the goal of the lower levels of a program (and the middle schools should be included in the program) is to develop the kids to play within the varsity system. And this includes the offensive and defensive systems being run. Again, it is not a bi-product; it should be the entire focus of the lower levels of the program.
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Post by Coach Huey on Oct 31, 2009 21:27:38 GMT -6
ladies and gentleman ....
Bob Goodman, scientist for hire
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Post by phantom on Oct 31, 2009 21:42:18 GMT -6
That's the problem here. You're writing about something that is completely foreign to you. I almost never post on the youth forum. I have no experience with it so I stay out of it. Have you ever heard of a consultant? It's someone who has no advance knowledge of your business, who you tell the facts to and who gives you an answer based on general understanding and application of principles with a fresh approach. I didn't have to know anything about football to answer this question. For football, you could've substituted discussion of lunch preparation and the answer would've been the same because the principles are the same. It would make no sense to prepare different foods for the freshmen, sophs, etc. And it would also make no sense for the junior high school down the street and the local Cub Scout meet to have their menu dictated by what the high school's serving. Recently I did some word processing for a FOAF who was a lawyer and needed emergency help. When I was done, he told me I was better than the experienced legal sec'y he'd hired alongside me, because even though I had no training as a legal sec'y, I figured out what the deltas and pis in his handwritten notes stood for, and she didn't know. I just used my gen'l knowledge and figured out from the context that they stood for "defendant" and "plaintiff". I run into this sort of thing all the time. I sometimes wind up doing other people's jobs just to get the service they should be doing for me. They have a job, they're getting paid, and they have experience -- yet they still don't know what they're doing and I do, even though I don't have the job. I bet many of you have been in a similar position. I also lack credentials required to do lots of jobs I know I could do; I bet many of you have that feeling too. OK, so I don't know the current rules about eligibility for various HS or college teams. So tell me how that makes anything I wrote about the issue wrong. I didn't claim to know the eligibility rules, and I didn't bring them up. I discussed only the subject of this thread because I'm competent to discuss it regardless of experience. I'm not shy about discussing subjects with experienced persons even when I have no direct experience with them. I bet you do have experience in youth football, you just don't acknowledge it. You seem to know football, right? And you've been a youth, right? So put the two together. Think about the things that make a juvenile juvenile and how those relate to football. It's not rocket science. Bob, you're a scientist. I'm not. Neither are most of us here. Now suppose you were involved in a discussion group for people in your particular discipline. I come in with suggestions that demonstrate that I have no understanding of the subject whatsoever. Then I post a message admitting that and ask for an explanation of things that everyone else in the forum understands fundamentally. My posts would not be taken seriously nor should they be. BTW, what was that word? Consullant or something? Duh, no, never heard of it.
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Post by bobgoodman on Nov 1, 2009 22:22:18 GMT -6
I come in with suggestions that demonstrate that I have no understanding of the subject whatsoever. Then I post a message admitting that and ask for an explanation of things that everyone else in the forum understands fundamentally. Who said I was asking for an explanation? I asked some rhetorical questions.
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Post by ocinaz on Nov 2, 2009 1:21:15 GMT -6
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...This turned it to a mess because of Mr. Wizard's World...HAHAHAHAHAHA...
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
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Post by tedseay on Nov 2, 2009 2:49:32 GMT -6
Do you think the JV should run the same offense and defense as the Varsity. All teams at the same school (varsity, JV, frosh) -- absolutely yes. One program, one menu. Middle school -- depends. If the varsity HC hires the MS coaches, then he should definitely have input. If a MS feeds more than one HS, though, all bets may be off -- I would leave it up to the MS staffs in those situations. Youth leagues -- entirely up to the youth coaching staff. Most of their kids will never play HS ball, so the youth staff should be doing what they can to develop both skills and enthusiasm for the game. Too often, neither happens when you try to run shotgun spread zone read with 8-year-olds...
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Post by coachks on Nov 2, 2009 9:46:37 GMT -6
I'm really shocked at how so many people disregard the importance of the youth, middle, fresh and JV games. Assuming a kid was to play from age 8 to age 18, he'll play roughly around 75 football games in his life (actual time may vary).
And the assumption is that less than one third of those games matter?
And of course, the vast majority of kids won't make it too varsity, so their entire career didn't even happen?
Sure, the JV exists to prepare kids for Varsity, but those games still matter to the kids playing them, the parents watching them and the coaches coaching them. As football coaches, I'm really shocked that so many people believe that a game of football is irrelevant. In fact, it really goes against everything we ever tell our players.
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Post by phantom on Nov 2, 2009 9:56:55 GMT -6
I'm really shocked at how so many people disregard the importance of the youth, middle, fresh and JV games. Assuming a kid was to play from age 8 to age 18, he'll play roughly around 75 football games in his life (actual time may vary). And the assumption is that less than one third of those games matter? And of course, the vast majority of kids won't make it too varsity, so their entire career didn't even happen? Sure, the JV exists to prepare kids for Varsity, but those games still matter to the kids playing them, the parents watching them and the coaches coaching them. As football coaches, I'm really shocked that so many people believe that a game of football is irrelevant. In fact, it really goes against everything we ever tell our players. Who said that they don't matter? Now, at our place there is no MS football and the rec leagues are independent so all we have is varsity and JV. We expect the JVs to run the same system as the varsity, though. That doesn't mean that we don't want them to win.
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Post by coachks on Nov 2, 2009 21:57:40 GMT -6
Perhaps it's more implied tone, but coachorr (and other quips) with the attitude that JV stands for Just for Varsity. The general idea that the JV program simply exists to create football players for the Varsity. Taken a step further, the idea is that the youth, middle, fresh and JV programs simply exist to groom young men into Varsity football players.
Basically, winning is a nice little addition as long as the players are being groomed for the Varsity, but winning itself is not the goal.
Perhaps I'm misinterpreting people (it is the internet afterall, tone is subject to interpretations). I just get the impression that there are a lot of coaches who think that football life begins and ends with the varisty program, disregarding the individuals playing/coaching at that level who put in the time and effort to win too.
Which is beyond the debate of should the JV run the varisty scheme, but rather, an entire attitude towards the lower tiers of the program.
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