CoachDP
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Post by CoachDP on Jan 19, 2010 7:08:05 GMT -6
"NO ONE is immune from playing favorites."
Perhaps. But since the thread was discussing "dad coaches" who play favorites, my response was addressing the fact that this scenario can't apply to us.
"In a situation where I have two kids rated equally, but I know one of the two kids and his family, and I know that the kid is tough, smart, and has been raised properly by his parents, and I don't know anything about the other kid or his family - I'm probably going to go with the kid I know."
That's not (IMO) "playing favorites." That's playing the "known quantity" over the "unknown quantity." Or, what you're guessing to be the surer bet. "Playing favorites" (as I see it pertaining to this thread) is dads who give their son a starting position when they shouldn't start, or play them at a position they have no business playing.
"Since I know the kid, it's a lower risk and the right decision"
Agreed.
"That's when we start making the same kinds of mistakes that "Daddy coaches" make."
I guess my point is that I can't make a "daddy coach is playing favorites" mistake because I'm not a "daddy coach." Sure, I'm not immune to making any other kind of mistake, including those regarding personnel, but I'm immune from having a parent get upset about how much my kid plays, or what position.
"I've seen too many coaches that thought they were being objective when they clearly weren't."
To be honest, I have on very rare occasion seen them. An "objective dad" is practically an oxymoron.
--Dave
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Post by rookiehc on Jan 19, 2010 8:30:22 GMT -6
This discussion is so subjective, there are no firm answers. This is one of those "case by case basis" type things, but here is my two cents worth: I was HC of my son's Mitey Mite team last season. I told the coaches and parents before the season that there would be no "daddy ball" on my team. No coach placed their son at any position, especially me placing my own son. No coach would specifically coach their son, if they had something they really wanted to direct their son to do, they were to tell another coach and that coach would relay the message (without saying "your dad wants you to..."). We had specific drills and games the first week of the season that we scored, and placed kids in their positions by score. Later we could adjust, but I told all the parents and coaches that, whatever their son scored in these games and drills determined their position to start the season. No discussion. This worked out well. I also had an assistant that doesn't have kids and I told everyone, if there are any issues, he has the final decision to make it as objective as possible.
As far as me knowing parents of the kids and playing favorites, that was no big deal. As a HC, you have to be prepared to piss people off. One of my assistants is one of my closest friends and he had some difficult moments this season trying to understand my actions. He came to my house and we had a sit-down where I told him that I could sugar-coat things or I could tell him like a man what I thought. To his credit, he wanted no sugar-coating. He didn't understand why I was so hard on his son. I told him to go to practice and watch exactly how I deal with all the kids. I try my best to be equally fair with all. After the season, he told me he was wrong, which was cool. He also told me (as my wife does) that I have a completely different personality on the practice field than I do in games and in life in general. I have to keep us on track in practice, so I am very intense. On game days, I feel that I have done all I can do and leave it to the kids to do what they have been taught, so I just try to be a calm force and manage the game. I have also had several parents come to me after the season and tell me they had some major concerns during the first part of the season, but they now see why we did what we did and they appreciate those actions looking back on them. The biggest thing to remember is that we are doing this for the kids and not the wins or the parents.
I'm not saying what we did is perfect. I put a lot of time and research in before I became HC to be sure that we would be as fair as possible and I think it worked well, even with so many dad-coaches. Sorry for the long winded response.
Scott
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Post by gumbyinco on Jan 19, 2010 14:29:31 GMT -6
My kid is about to turn 11 and just finished his 4th year of football. I've been an assistant coach for the last 3. The first year, it didn't matter what I did or how I coached him because we were so bad and disfunctional as a staff. I took him off that team to his current situation that I will describe as ideal for both of us.
Our HC doesn't have a kid on the team and is a board member for the league. The 3 AC's, myself included, all have sons on the team and all 3 are among the best players on the team. The rules are simple: 1) You're not a dad on the practice or game field. You're a coach. 2) You treat every kid on the team the same. You put in the same effort for every kid, dish out the same criticism and the same praise. 3) You DO NOT make placement decisions involving your own kid. For all positions, we discuss it as a group and the HC makes the final decision. If your son is a candidate for a position you happen to coach, you are expected to bow out of that discussion.
Now, it happens that my son and another AC's son share time at QB. The first kid was a QB last year, before his dad became a coach. My son made the move to QB based on the HC's wishes. I coach the backs, including the QB's. I address my son by his last name when I have a whistle around my neck.
If the HC decided that my son is moving from QB to Offensive Guard or from MLB to Defensive Tackle, I would support that decision 100%. I would ask him what techniques we should go over at home. Next year, my son may not be a QB. His throwing mechanics are not where we think they need to be and it's expected that a competent passing game will be more important next year. If he can't fix his throwing, he wont play QB.
Last year, I tried the "ignore my son" strategy to avoid the appearance of favoritism. That wasn't fair to him or the team. He pointed out to me that he only hears from me when he makes a mistake. I fixed that. I make sure to praise him when he deserves it just like I would any other kid. I was concerned that since he makes a lot of plays that it would look like I'm paying more attention to him. So I fixed that by praising effort instead of results. So now, all the kids I coach get a lot of attention.
I've witnessed situations where the team is there to highlight the coach's kid. So when I got my opportunity to coach, I refused to be part of something like that. I do this for the kids - all the kids. I'm happy to say that our players absolutely love playing for us. Their parents feel the same way.
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Post by rookiehc on Jan 19, 2010 16:36:01 GMT -6
Nice work, gumby...you are the kinda dude I like as an assistant!
It takes work to be objective, but it can be done. It is much better than daddy-ball!
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CoachDP
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Post by CoachDP on Jan 19, 2010 17:08:53 GMT -6
"Nice work, gumby...you are the kinda dude I like as an assistant!"
Lar's the kind of guy I like as a head coach.
--Dave
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Post by coachdoug on Jan 20, 2010 1:13:42 GMT -6
Dave - Like I said, my comments really weren't directed at you, so I hope you didn't take anything I said personally. In my experience, I've found that coaches usually get into trouble with regard to the favoritism issue when they feel it doesn't apply to them, whether they are a Daddy coach ("I don't play favorites - I'm harder on my own kid than any other kid on the team.") or a coach with no kid on the team ("I don't play favorites - I don't have a kid playing on the team so I'm completely objective.") Coaches that recognize it's not that simple and take appropriate steps to make sure favoritism is minimized have far fewer problems (see Gumby's excellent post). Again, I'm sure none of this applies to you or your staff, but I want to make it clear for any rookie coaches that may be reading this thread that preventing "Daddy Coach Syndrome" or non-daddy coaches otherwise playing favorites isn't necessarily that hard to do, but you have to recognize the potential for abuse and take the appropriate steps to prevent it. JMHO.
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CoachDP
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Post by CoachDP on Jan 20, 2010 7:42:57 GMT -6
"Dave - Like I said, my comments really weren't directed at you, so I hope you didn't take anything I said personally."
Doug,
No, not at all. Even if they had been directed at me, your views are always reasoned and well-balanced.
--Dave
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Post by daveinsarasota on Jan 20, 2010 8:59:43 GMT -6
One thing that shouldn't be lost in translation, is that the title of this post is, "Why SOME dad's should not coach their son...", with special emphasis provided on the word SOME.
Not all...just some.
I will add, however, that as the years go by, I have conditioned myself to look at the roster, and match up the coaches last name, to the players. About 80% of the time...no joke, the QB is the coaches son. You can sugar coat it anyway you want, but that is just the way it is. I have seen it too many times for it to be sheer coincidence, and I am guilty of the same thing, from years ago when I coached my own son.
My son does not play for me anymore, but he is the QB for his team, and he is a really good one. But was it fair? When I look back, I regret it in such a big way. At the time, I told myself that my son was the best guy for the job, and used the excuse that he was with me all the time, etc. I did have two guys playing QB early on, and allwed them to split time, to see which one would emerge, which was my son...but should another kid have received a shot at it as well? I think so.
Even thought things worked out great for my kid, maybe another kid was deprived, due to my lack of objectivity.
The lessons I learned from that, is the reason why I am very much against dad coaches.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 10:46:17 GMT -6
I just added a rule this year that if a parent has a child on my team he is not allowed to be a member of our staff. He's free to assist any other team within our organization, but fathers coaching their sons are not allowed on my team.
Especially if they're going to show up in a full set of pads to teach my kids..
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CoachDP
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Post by CoachDP on Jan 20, 2010 11:49:36 GMT -6
"One thing that shouldn't be lost in translation, is that the title of this post is, "Why SOME dad's should not coach their son...", with special emphasis provided on the word SOME."
Maybe it should be changed to "Why MOST dads should not coach their son." lol
"The lessons I learned from that, is the reason why I am very much against dad coaches."
What's interesting is how much differently you see it now, as opposed to then. Even then, you thought you were being fair and accurate about the situation. Now in hindsight, you have regrets. That says a great deal about even the most objective parents, when it comes to being able to accurately judge your own child's athleticism.
--Dave
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CoachDP
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Post by CoachDP on Jan 20, 2010 11:52:06 GMT -6
"I just added a rule this year that if a parent has a child on my team he is not allowed to be a member of our staff. He's free to assist any other team within our organization, but fathers coaching their sons are not allowed on my team."
Coach Kelly, in our org (we have 11 teams) a HC cannot have his son on the team.
--Dave
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 16:41:07 GMT -6
I like that rule, I'll accept it if he has a son a few years down the road and comes up through the organization, in which case I don't want him to hold a coordinator position. But NO more daddy coaches
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CoachDP
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Post by CoachDP on Jan 20, 2010 17:18:32 GMT -6
A son can "pass through" his dad's team (meaning, the son plays for a season on dad's team as the kid progresses through the org) but the dad HC stays with the age group that he coaches at. In our org, our HC's don't rotate or move up with their team. There has to be an opening for any movement to take place (coach quits or is fired). Then other coaches can throw their name in the hat for consideration for that spot. ACs CAN move up with their kid, but not HCs.
--Dave
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 19:11:26 GMT -6
I have no problem with that we had 2 daddy coaches this year 1- has been coaching there for a few years. I inherited him from the orevios HC when I took over this year...great guy, his kids a great kid too...not to mention one of the nastiest safties in the league. The other....well, showed up in pads, then called me stubborn for not letting him hit with the kids....
1st one will be the last one I allow, unless one of my guys has a son (or daughter) come through
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Post by gameface on Jan 21, 2010 12:26:34 GMT -6
If I take my kid off my roster who will run the ball? LOL
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Post by illiniwek on Mar 18, 2010 4:30:58 GMT -6
Fortunately I played youth ball for a coach who was the polar opposite of this guy you describe. His sons were by far the most talented players on the team. Both went on to play college ball. But he showed no preferential treatment to them in any way. If anything, he was harder on them than any other player and they would be pulled quicker than any one else if he felt it was necessary.
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krug
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Post by krug on May 18, 2010 9:15:06 GMT -6
Good post, I'm a daddy coach, and I've coached my son's football team for 4 years now, (he's 11). I do not play favorites, if anything, I'm harder on him than anyone else. I'll chew arse, and get in his face long before anyone elses kid. I've discussed this with him numerous times. I just tell him...in a way I'm taking out my frustrations on you, cause I can, cause I know you can take it, cause I know you are tougher than most. Since I know my boy's capabilities better than anyone, I will sometimes use him for things that I can't ask of others...One game in which we were getting destroyed, I played my son at running back, not that he was the best, but because the running backs I was using were getting so beat up that I just figured, he will take it and I won't have to put up with the mom's plural. In many instances, I will throw him on the line mainly because no one else is getting the job done, and he'll do "whatever" it takes.
My main problem is with other dad coaches on my own team. Each one is lobbying for their own's son's spot at such and such. I've had many political discussions with each one declaring their son is the best; receiver, running back, quarter back, safety, on and on. It's political in that I have to tip toe around the issue and basically say, no, he is not a qb or such and such. It's weird, but I coach my son and would never MAKE him a qb or whatever glory spot there is, I just want him to play, and he loves the game, but for other coach dad's, they see their own son't as something much more than they are. The reality is just not there.
Another story involves when I was an assistant for someone. This HC had their son playing QB and DE all the time, every fricken play of the game. He was 4th on list as far as qb and was just a awful DE arm tackler...but there he was every play. My own son would give blood but only played CB every other play, which is fine, but to see this coaches son play all the time when other capable players got 1/4th duty, kind of a miscarriage. I asked him about it, his standard answer..."I volunteer to coach, my son plays the entire game...the end".
Now as HC myself, I do not utilize that philosophy, with my boy or any other coaches son. They play where they fit in, they play as much as I see fit, and you will not coach your own son as a position coach. Works pretty well.
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Post by coachbrek on May 18, 2010 10:06:20 GMT -6
I am glad Dad's coach their sons for a year or two, it makes my job a lot easier.
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Post by daveinsarasota on May 18, 2010 11:37:08 GMT -6
In our organizaiton, the HC will stay at a level. Invariably, we get assistants, who often times are dads moving up...
It is common that they try to "politic" on behalf of their son to play a certain position. I handle that by doing the "pepsi challenge". I let EVERYONE try out for ANY position they want. It becomes clear who the best person is, and since my son does not play for me, I don't have a dog in the hunt. I just want whats best for our team. No one can accuse me of playing favorites.
Every year I get the father of a big slow kid, who says "he has great hands, I could see him as a tight end...". My reply? The TE is my number one receiver, I need someone with good hands AND good feet.
There is also the guy who says "my son has a great arm, I think he would make a good quarterback...". My reply? We run the split back veer. I need my quarterback to have the natural leadership and mind of a quarterback, but has the mental and physical attitude of a running back. After I find guys with those characteristics...I look for the better arm...
Be the absolute expert on your offense and defense. That way, you choose the personnel you want to execute your system, instead of having someone come in and try to tell you what to do...
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2010 11:44:49 GMT -6
Don't get me wrong I love when dad's coach their kids.......on the other team.
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Post by mhcoach on May 18, 2010 11:52:29 GMT -6
This subject for me is very difficult. When I started coaching( in NYC) "Daddy Ball" simply didn't exist. We were able to get assistant coaches quite easily. Having never had the problem when I moved to Florida, it was culture shock. My first year(which I have described here before) the situation I walked into was horrible because of "Daddy Ball". It had caused such a rift amongst the staff that they imploded. I walked in and luckily was able to correct the situation. After that season I went on to coach at the High School. I didn't have any direct dealings with the youth organization. What I did watch from afar was hideous. Every head coach's son was the QB, whether or not he deserved to be. I saw fathers who were so hard on their sons the it bordered on abuse. Sons only playing to please Daddy. Boys who worked hard, played hard, & were consummate team players; only to be pushed aside for some "coaches" son. Half of these guys knew nothing, & worst yet wouldn't learn anything. The thing that really sickened me was the total lack of concern for the TEAM. They believed that their position in the organization gave them this right.
Now living in Charlotte, I have seen the same thing from other teams. On our team we try to not have any father's coaching & if we do they, don't coach their sons. Sometimes I think there are fathers who are really concerned & want to be a true Coach, unfortunately the "Daddy Ballers" have given fathers coaching such a bad reputation that it becomes hard to overcome.
I do understand without fathers coaching, most youth football teams would not be able to continue. I have seen a few good coaches who also have sons that play. Like anything else in this life, this becomes a paradox. It is not my intention to knock any coaches who have son's that play for them.
IMHO, it is very difficult for a father to be objective, or fair when dealing with their sons. They will fall on either end of the spectrum, too hard or too easy on their son. Neither of these approaches is any good. So why have to worry about being in this situation.
Joe
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Post by mahonz on May 18, 2010 12:22:48 GMT -6
Joe
It is tough. My son started playing when he was 7 as the center. He then started playing QB when he was 10. By the time he was 12 I stopped coaching on his team because he was the QB. He went on to play D1 college football as a QB. He only was able to red shirt before he suffered an injury outside of football that ended his dream.
The thing about dads coaching their sons is you never really know what’s up until they get to HS. Then you know. So many think that Jr. is so much better than they are…which is fine. You want your kids to have success and it is impossible for any parent not be their kids biggest fan.
My son and I now coach together. That is a lot of fun. We hire dads to be assistants but rarely place them in a position to coach their own son. That still does not fix the problem because they still have a tendency to get into your ear. It takes a full season for them to realize that whatever contribution their son is making…be really happy about that and enjoy the moments because time will fly by.
Coach Mike
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Post by coachbrek on May 18, 2010 12:25:32 GMT -6
Don't get me wrong I love when dad's coach their kids.......on the other team. That's what I meant, Dad's who were great running backs in high school are the best. COME ON LINE BLOCK SOMEBODY!!!! Is music to my ears from an opposing Dad coach.
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Post by daveinsarasota on May 18, 2010 12:56:07 GMT -6
Don't get me wrong I love when dad's coach their kids.......on the other team. That's what I meant, Dad's who were great running backs in high school are the best. COME ON LINE BLOCK SOMEBODY!!!! Is music to my ears from an opposing Dad coach. That is too funny...
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Post by coachdoug on May 18, 2010 12:58:26 GMT -6
As I stated earlier in this thread, if you find yourself making statements like, "I don't play favorites - if anything I'm harder on my own son than anyone else," it's time to take a good hard look in the mirror, because that IS playing favorites. If you're tougher and more demanding of any one kid, you're also paying more attention to him, pushing him harder to improve and generally assuring that kid gets more and better coaching. YOU ARE PLAYING FAVORITES when you do that - that's what playing favorites is, especially if all that extra "toughness" never results in reduced playing time (which it rarely does in all the cases of daddy coachs I've observed that have used this excuse).
If you're not treating all the kids the same (not identical, but using the same standards and approach), then you are playing favorites whether you think you're tougher on your own kid or not. If you can't figure out a way to do this, then you probably shouldn't coach your own kid.
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Post by mhcoach on May 18, 2010 13:06:51 GMT -6
Mike
I hear exactly what you are saying. It must have been very difficult to step aside from coaching your son. You did the right & honorable thing. I am sure both of you benifitted from your decission. That is the true meaning of being a coach.
In all my years of coaching I only coached on the same team as my child once. I was asked by my daughter's lacrosse coach to help her & coach the goalies(I played goalie in HS). i made sure to not coach her at all, never making any suggestions about her play to the other coaches. Yes, it very difficult, thankfully it worked.
Mike, I sure you are well aware, & as many have stated here, often fathers coaching sons are harder on their own child then the rest of the team. That too is favoritism, often the worst kind. Why should a boy be subjected to that behavior? You, set an example I wish others would follow.
Joe
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Post by mahonz on May 18, 2010 14:25:09 GMT -6
Joe
I cant take any credit for being a Saint in the matter.
I was the OC and loved to pass the football. My son just happened to be really good at it but I started catching grief from the peanut gallery behind my back. If you are a coach…HC / OC or DC people will think you have a hidden agenda if your son plays a high profile position regardless.
Plus he couldn’t stop calling me Pops on the field so it was time for me to cut that umbilical cord and let him prove himself on his own. He did but I was upset that people can be so obtuse. Coach Hawkins at CU has failed miserably as the Header…because his son was the QB.
Whats funny now is...all of my grandkids except one is playing t-ball. I know nothing about baseball except Id rather have a root canal than watch a baseball game...but we do it for the kids. Anyway, as far as Im concerned, all of their coaches are idiots so Im now one of "those" people in the peanut gallery complaining about nothing !
Coach Mike
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2010 8:49:11 GMT -6
Don't get me wrong I love when dad's coach their kids.......on the other team. That's what I meant, Dad's who were great running backs in high school are the best. COME ON LINE BLOCK SOMEBODY!!!! Is music to my ears from an opposing Dad coach. My all time favorite is "When I was playing we buckled down, and won by putting more points on the board than the other team"....like I thought it was Golf
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Post by mhcoach on May 19, 2010 9:05:18 GMT -6
Mike I just don't get baseball, it's round, has too many laces. You can't hit anybody.
Seriously though, too many Dad's think they are the only one who can coach their sons. Last season we had a boy come to us who had played QB for his dad for 5 years. He is a stud, just not a QB. We were desperate last year for a QB, so when he signed up we were very excited. He walked down to field the 1st day & I knew just by walk he wasn't a QB. We worked him out there for probably 6 practices. He had no fundamentals, could get the steps down, no throwing motion. I was shocked, I also knew he would make a great TB. When we first moved him there his Dad objected, I took the father aside & spoke with him. Mid way through the season the father came to me & said it was the best move. The boy was a dominating runner, at QB he was less then average. He has begun working out with his HS & they are loving him at TB.
Joe
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Post by daveinsarasota on May 19, 2010 10:28:36 GMT -6
This is a great thread, and should be required reading for new coaches...
Doug said it perfectly...once a coach starts down the path of "if anything, I am harder on my son..." That is one way of playing favorites.
Either way you look at it, coaching your son can be a distraction.
For example, I was talking to my son's coach about the fact that he will be moving up to play for me next year... I told him that I can't play him at QB, but I will have to find a spot for him. His reply to me was that I am playing favorites to another kid, at the expense of my son...and it is not fair to him either.
That is how it can be unfair. Not just to other teammates, but to your son. It truly is best if you are not in a position to coach your son, or influence where he plays.
And just like mahonz said, you have the additional scrutiny of the peanut gallery if your son is playing a high profile position. I might not even coach next year as a result. Even if your son is the second coming of Peyton Manning, it won't matter...the peanut gallery will be out in droves with one mistake. Save the headache and aggravation...
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