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Post by coachinghopeful on Jan 7, 2009 20:55:29 GMT -6
This question came to me as I researched the offense and how opponents try to stop it. It's basically the same issue that teams who run the Air Raid, Run and Shoot, SW, or any other unonventional offense faces. Does running the DW in practice hurt the preperation for your defense by robbing them of "quality" reps?
This is probably a moot point for those of you who can two platoon your starters and then two platoon your scout teams, too. But if you've got that type of massive talent pool to draw from, I presume you're probably not going to run the DW anyway.
My line of thinking here is this: if you run an offense that's closer to the norm, your defenders, even when playing scout defense, still get a lot of good, solid reps on fundamental things such as taking on blocks, reading blockers, pass defense, etc. But against the DW, teams tend to lose their minds and throw all sorts of weird, desperate crap at you. Submarining linemen on every snap, tackling your Gs, double teaming your C so he gets jammed into the backfield, etc. If have to devote practice time to simulating that in practice every week knowing you'll likely never ask your own defenders to do it in a game, aren't those wasted reps for your own defensive players? Or do you just not even worry about that stuff until it comes up in a game, or find that the benefits of the added time of possession outweigh this concern?
This is something you hear about the Run and Shoot. Say you're running the RAS in a run-heavy league so your base defense is a 53. In order to rep things during team, you've got to cobble together a scout team D with some of your starters sitting on the sidelines or playing out of position. Even those reps that your 1s get in this scout defense aren't necessarily doing the same sort of stuff they need to master to play effectively against your opponents on Fridays.
So, what's your experience been with it? I know OJW is a defensive-minded HC with a small roster who loves the DW too. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
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Post by khalfie on Jan 7, 2009 21:21:17 GMT -6
I believe its just the opposite.
The DW and other power offenses help your defense. I'd go a step further to say these power offenses instill a toughness within your program that you just can't get elsewhere.
No matter what, this game reduces to blocking and tackling... that's the essence of the power game... kids are in goalline all day everyday... bumped and bruised...
You can't quantify the advantages of such an environment.
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Post by jhanawa on Jan 7, 2009 21:34:08 GMT -6
I'd agree with Khalfie that DW offenses in general should have tough run defenses against goaline offenses as matter of environment.....defending other types of offenses that are balanced might be another matter as blocking and tackling in the open field is different than blocking and tackling inside a phone booth...
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Post by spos21ram on Jan 7, 2009 21:58:33 GMT -6
What exactly is a conventional offense?
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Post by coachinghopeful on Jan 7, 2009 22:26:40 GMT -6
What exactly is a conventional offense? Ha. Good question. I was thinking something more along the lines of what you see on TV, or like what what most other HS teams run in your area. Around here, it's probably 75% run-heavy Multiple/Pro I, with a few Wing-Ts and a handful of (usually terrible) shotgun spreads. The closest thing to the DW are a team that runs a shotgun double slot that's a mishmash of different offenses, while 2 run the wishbone. That's about it. There is some variation, but they all do basically the same things, just with different people and in different ratios. Nobody throws anything as "unusual" at you as the DW. The DW forces you into a phone booth in the middle and then tries to beat you up on the edges of that phonebooth with as many people at the point of attack as possible. Maybe in some leagues that's commonplace, but nobody else here does anything like that. |
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Post by touchdownmaker on Jan 8, 2009 4:51:16 GMT -6
What exactly is a conventional offense? It cant fit into a phone booth for one thing. |
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Post by coachweigelt on Jan 8, 2009 7:14:50 GMT -6
I believe its just the opposite. No matter what, this game reduces to blocking and tackling... that's the essence of the power game... kids are in goalline all day everyday... bumped and bruised... You can't quantify the advantages of such an environment. Yeah but then you have to play teams who lineup in 5 wide (maybe even in a 4x1 package) and then your smashmouth defense is screwed, because heck yeah they can stop the QB from running up the middle but they have not practiced a zonedrop or a Receiver crossing their face on crossing routes in a live scrimmage for half a year (because as we all know the great sentence: "What is the best trickplay in the DW? - The Forward Pass!) We have the same problem with the Spread, our defense get extra days where we simulate some "Conventional" offenses. Mostly we try to scout our opp. and show some of their offense during mini camps. |
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Post by khalfie on Jan 8, 2009 8:49:28 GMT -6
Yeah but then you have to play teams who lineup in 5 wide (maybe even in a 4x1 package) and then your smashmouth defense is screwed, because heck yeah they can stop the QB from running up the middle but they have not practiced a zonedrop or a Receiver crossing their face on crossing routes in a live scrimmage for half a year (because as we all know the great sentence: "What is the best trickplay in the DW? - The Forward Pass!) We have the same problem with the Spread, our defense get extra days where we simulate some "Conventional" offenses. Mostly we try to scout our opp. and show some of their offense during mini camps. Great point coach... But I think your point speaks to yester-year, and why the "spread" exploded on the seen. Sure, a few years ago, that was the case. Smashmouth teams, just weren't ready for the spread, hadn't been practicing drops, and only had two defenses... cover 1 and Cover 3. Now, however... I believe its just the reverse. All summer, teams are in 7 on 7 passing leagues defending the passing game, with so many teams going spread, defenses are now spending the majority of their season, preparing to stop the spread. If your team is a Spread Team, you spend your first 2 weeks, giving your spread offense, different looks via different defensive schemes. Not the smashmouth... they are battling double tight, in the phone booth, beating the bajeebuzz out of each other. Present day, the majority of your schedule is against spread teams. Last year, all but 2 teams I faced, were shotgun spread. Every week, we are fine tuning our multiple defenseive looks out of the spread, and figuring out how to disguise coverages, and bring pressure... I would say we have become spread experts by default. However, being smashmouth... when your offense needs a look... you have to get down and dirty. We take that menatlity and put it in space. All we need is talent, and we become a spread teams worst nightmare. A power smashmouth team, that's been hardened and matured in a smashmouth mentality, but spends an inordinate amount of time preparing to defend the spread. |
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Post by brophy on Jan 8, 2009 9:40:16 GMT -6
This is probably a moot point for those of you who can two platoon your starters and then two platoon your scout teams, too. My line of thinking here is this: if you run an offense that's closer to the norm, I cannot answer this, but I can ask two more questions..... 1. If you are DW....namely you use foot-to-foot splits, this would bastardize the fronts you're likely going to SEE, which would be the ONLY real issue I can see. However, the MAIN THING, IMO, is that your offense is built to run against your OPPONENTS, not yourself. When you practice FOR the week's OPPONENT, I hope you are not practicing using YOUR offense against YOUR defense (right?). 2. How does being a no-huddle/ fast-tempo team NOT two-platoon? |
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moon
Junior Member
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Post by moon on Jan 8, 2009 9:49:23 GMT -6
I also think it helps or complement your defense. We are undersized as a team so it teaches us how to be aggressive and move bodies. On defense, it teaches your lbs to read, have vision, such as pulls, and getting through all the muck with all the down down and around blocking.
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Post by superpower on Jan 8, 2009 10:05:44 GMT -6
Running the DW has not hurt our defense at all. As Brophy stated above, you prepare all week for your opponent's offense. We were not a good pass defense team my first two years at my current position, but it wasn't because we ran the DW. We just weren't coaching it up as well as we needed to, but we spent much of our off-season preparation last year focusing on improving in that area, and it paid off for us. Take a look at some of our highlights and see if you think running the DW hurts our defense: meierproductions.com/TrojanSrHighFootball.htm (Click on the 2008 clips.) |
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Post by khalfie on Jan 8, 2009 10:33:55 GMT -6
Running the DW has not hurt our defense at all. As Brophy stated above, you prepare all week for your opponent's offense. We were not a good pass defense team my first two years at my current position, but it wasn't because we ran the DW. We just weren't coaching it up as well as we needed to, but we spent much of our off-season preparation last year focusing on improving in that area, and it paid off for us. Take a look at some of our highlights and see if you think running the DW hurts our defense: meierproductions.com/TrojanSrHighFootball.htm (Click on the 2008 clips.) Outstanding coach... I could watch those videos all day... seemed as if... that Inverted bone / diamond T team gave you fits... Love how you've complimented your power with the rocket... nice...  |
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Post by undertakerx on Jan 8, 2009 10:36:07 GMT -6
I cant say that DW (double wing) i assume u are talking about hurt us we didnt see it this year.
We are a air raid offense that throws the ball. Pre-distric this year we played 4 power running teams. In distric we played 4 shotgun teams not air raid but shotgun and in the play offs we played an air raid team. Our defense was giving up 40 points a game and the offense was throwing for 300+ yards a game in pre-distric. In distric and the play off game our defense was only giving up around 25 points and our running game picked up and we were throwing the ball less.
We are a smaller school but we still 2-platoon but during offensive practice all we do is throw the ball.
It just seamed like or D played better agains spread teams and did horrible against power running teams. We have to use our starting D a lot for a scout team so the offense can get a good look. The DC runs the scout team and is always trying to stop the offense so they spend a lot of time seeing the spread and i think it hurts them against power running teams.
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Post by dblwngr on Jan 8, 2009 10:44:08 GMT -6
I think DW may actually help your defense. Being a DW team you know that you will only see a small handfull of defenses, 6-2, 6-1, or an odd front. For us this ment more time to spend on defense in practice since our offense somewhat dictates what can be run defensivly against us.
Our defense was 4th in the state so I don't feel DW causes any problems.
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Post by cjamerson on Jan 8, 2009 13:36:22 GMT -6
Phone booth? How many times have you seen someone get the crap kicked out of them in a phone booth? I'd say more like a back alley or a bar fight.
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Post by coachinghopeful on Jan 8, 2009 15:22:54 GMT -6
This is probably a moot point for those of you who can two platoon your starters and then two platoon your scout teams, too. My line of thinking here is this: if you run an offense that's closer to the norm, I cannot answer this, but I can ask two more questions..... 1. If you are DW....namely you use foot-to-foot splits, this would bastardize the fronts you're likely going to SEE, which would be the ONLY real issue I can see. However, the MAIN THING, IMO, is that your offense is built to run against your OPPONENTS, not yourself. When you practice FOR the week's OPPONENT, I hope you are not practicing using YOUR offense against YOUR defense (right?). 2. How does being a no-huddle/ fast-tempo team NOT two-platoon? I must have garbled what I meant somehow. Of course you'd have a team defense segment of practice too. I wasn't saying you'd just try to throw the same thing against your opponents you were running as scout D against yourself. And I wasn't just talking about two-platooning in a game, I was talking about two-platooning your scout teams as well as your starters in practice like a college would do. That way your #1 defense gets to practice totally seperately from, and maybe even at the same time as, your #1 offense. But for that you need at least 44 kids who fill the right types of positions and I doubt most teams can afford that luxury unless you want to use the freshmen as blocking/tackling dummies. What I was looking at was the efficiency of practice time. If you only get 2-3 hrs a day for 4 days a week (I'm of the school of thought that as long as practice is good and tight, less is more) and can play something close to your base defense against yourself in practice, those are quality reps for your defense as well as your offense because your defense is practicing their zone drops, pass rushing techniques, etc. in a live situation. However, if you have to spend 45 minutes a day or so beating your own guys up in a phone booth, with your defenders doing all sorts of unconventional things to simulate what you expect your offense to face in a game... is that the most efficient use of your time? Do the benefits of running the DW outweigh any inefficiency that might be there? I remember seeing somewhere that Dave Markham himself would devote 90 minutes of daily practice time to his offense (mostly just superpower and wedge over and over again ad nauseum), but only about 30 to his defense. Why was that? |
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Post by coachorr on Jan 8, 2009 16:06:43 GMT -6
Rocket, NICE out of the DW.
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Post by coachtut on Jan 8, 2009 16:08:40 GMT -6
No matter what you run, half of your league will be running something different so its a moot point. I understand where your coming from though.
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Post by coachorr on Jan 8, 2009 16:21:38 GMT -6
The age old tale, "Passing teams play better against passing teams, Running teams play better against running teams".
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Post by k on Jan 8, 2009 16:23:24 GMT -6
The two local DW teams are known to have effective pass rushes and brutal run defenses but are weak in coverage. Take it for what it is worth...
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Post by Coach Goodnight on Jan 8, 2009 17:47:12 GMT -6
I feel if you dedicate practice time working your offense against your opponents defense with a scout defense and your def against the opp def with a scout off and occasionally sprinkling some of the starters in here and there with the scouts it could be beneficial in many aspects. Starters get time in practice seeing the opp stuff during team time and then when they are sprinkled in against your off and def it could make them a more well rounded player thus making them an overall better player.
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Post by wingtol on Jan 8, 2009 19:19:25 GMT -6
The way you practice hurts your defense. The way you coach hurts your defense. Your offense doesn't hurt your offense if you ask me.
The school I use to coach at went from a punishing rushing team/hard hitting defense to a spread and an "aggressive" style defense. The results have been mixed. Many people feel the team isn't as physical as they need to be or had been in the past and blame the spread. We have had some players transfer from this school and have talked to some of their coaches. They are not soft because of their offense, they are soft because they wear helmets and shoulder pads and don't hit all week. So it's not your system it's what you do Mon-Thrs in my opinion that will hurt you the most.
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Post by khalfie on Jan 8, 2009 20:15:51 GMT -6
Phone booth? How many times have you seen someone get the crap kicked out of them in a phone booth? I'd say more like a back alley or a bar fight. Hill Larry Us! Coach tell me you aren't arguing metaphors... metaphors coach... really? LOL! |
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 8, 2009 21:47:33 GMT -6
I believe its just the opposite. The DW and other power offenses help your defense. I'd go a step further to say these power offenses instill a toughness within your program that you just can't get elsewhere. No matter what, this game reduces to blocking and tackling... that's the essence of the power game... kids are in goalline all day everyday... bumped and bruised... You can't quantify the advantages of such an environment. Good lord! I agree with Khal. It also shortens the game and limits the number of plays the opposition runs. Coming from a DC that had an AVERAGE of 60 offensive plays ran against him a game this year, time of possession helps your defenses ability to stop people enormously. |
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Post by touchdownmaker on Jan 9, 2009 6:51:58 GMT -6
Phone booth? How many times have you seen someone get the crap kicked out of them in a phone booth? I'd say more like a back alley or a bar fight. The double wing is a Pissed off Bobcat in a phone booth. ...and you are in there trying to scrape for some change. |
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Post by Coach Huey on Jan 9, 2009 7:05:57 GMT -6
The way you practice hurts your defense. The way you coach hurts your defense. Your offense doesn't hurt your offense if you ask me. The school I use to coach at went from a punishing rushing team/hard hitting defense to a spread and an "aggressive" style defense. The results have been mixed. Many people feel the team isn't as physical as they need to be or had been in the past and blame the spread. We have had some players transfer from this school and have talked to some of their coaches. They are not soft because of their offense, they are soft because they wear helmets and shoulder pads and don't hit all week. So it's not your system it's what you do Mon-Thrs in my opinion that will hurt you the most. BINGO!!! perception is NOT reality... wearing cowboy boots don't make you a cowboy ... |
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Post by khalfie on Jan 9, 2009 11:00:11 GMT -6
The way you practice hurts your defense. The way you coach hurts your defense. Your offense doesn't hurt your offense if you ask me. The school I use to coach at went from a punishing rushing team/hard hitting defense to a spread and an "aggressive" style defense. The results have been mixed. Many people feel the team isn't as physical as they need to be or had been in the past and blame the spread. We have had some players transfer from this school and have talked to some of their coaches. They are not soft because of their offense, they are soft because they wear helmets and shoulder pads and don't hit all week. So it's not your system it's what you do Mon-Thrs in my opinion that will hurt you the most. BINGO!!! perception is NOT reality... wearing cowboy boots don't make you a cowboy ... Kind of fond of that commentary Huey, but I disagree.... perception is reality... You wear cowboy boots, the hat, and talk funny... then for all intents and purposes... you are a cowboy. A good cowboy? I don't know... A fake cowboy? Again... I don't know... but, nonetheless, you are a cowboy. If you look the part, but don't necessarily play the part... that does not negate the attempt to identify yourself as such. In regards to offenses and their effect on your defense? If your offense is pass happy, and your numbers dictate your defense having to facilitate proper looks for said offense... then that discretioinary practice... right there... that 20 min segment of team, over a season of practice, everything else being constant, the practice plan, the defensive scheduling, coaching personnel... that difference of 20 minutes a day defending the spread, or defending the run... is what separates the two. I will acquiesce that there are diminishing returns the better the talent is... |
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Post by dubber on Jan 9, 2009 13:46:40 GMT -6
A fake cowboy? Again... I don't know... but, nonetheless, you are a cowboy. I am ready to argue that a fake anything is not the thing is pretending to be. This:  ...is not a sheep  ...is not cola This looks like a good rock band...  ...but they're not. Perception is reality? Ever seen the Matrix? Reality is not what you make it, even though you may convience yourself it is...... |
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Post by touchdownmaker on Jan 9, 2009 13:47:58 GMT -6
How long does it take you to actually make a post that includes three photos in it?
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Post by phantom on Jan 9, 2009 15:27:03 GMT -6
I used to believe that running a "soft" offense hurt your defense. I don't believe that anymore.
With the exception of a couple of defensive practices early in 2-a-days we never play defense against our own offense. If we're getting ready for a Wing T or a spread team why would we waste time in practice playing against our Pro I? No matter what offense your team runs your scout offense is running your opponents's plays.
I'm with those who have said that your offense doesn't make your defense soft, bad practice does.
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