|
Post by khalfie on Jan 9, 2009 15:37:15 GMT -6
I used to believe that running a "soft" offense hurt your defense. I don't believe that anymore. With the exception of a couple of defensive practices early in 2-a-days we never play defense against our own offense. If we're getting ready for a Wing T or a spread team why would we waste time in practice playing against our Pro I? No matter what offense your team runs your scout offense is running your opponents's plays. Not everyone is blessed with your numbers... sometimes, and this is only sometimes... your scout defense is comprised of the starters not on your starting offense... I think that's whom this conversation is directed. I'm with those who have said that your offense doesn't make your defense soft, bad practice does.
|
|
|
Post by khalfie on Jan 9, 2009 15:41:06 GMT -6
A fake cowboy? Again... I don't know... but, nonetheless, you are a cowboy. I am ready to argue that a fake anything is not the thing is pretending to be. This: ...is not a sheep ...is not cola This looks like a good rock band... ...but they're not. Perception is reality? Ever seen the Matrix? Reality is not what you make it, even though you may convience yourself it is...... Hill Larry Dub... You got me... However, how close do you have to get to find out what is, isn't what it claims to be? Very seldom, is anything actually what it claims to be. By the time you figure out what you thought was something else... its too late, they've already gotten you by faking to be what you had perceived in the first place.
|
|
|
Post by phantom on Jan 9, 2009 15:48:08 GMT -6
I used to believe that running a "soft" offense hurt your defense. I don't believe that anymore. With the exception of a couple of defensive practices early in 2-a-days we never play defense against our own offense. If we're getting ready for a Wing T or a spread team why would we waste time in practice playing against our Pro I? No matter what offense your team runs your scout offense is running your opponents's plays. Not everyone is blessed with your numbers... sometimes, and this is only sometimes... your scout defense is comprised of the starters not on your starting offense... I think that's whom this conversation is directed. We don't have great numbers and we don't platoon. Our scout offense is made up of whoever is not playing defense. Sometimes that's offensive starters sometimes it's not. No matter who is on the scout team I don't see any value in practicing defense against a different offense than you'll be playing against.
|
|
|
Post by khalfie on Jan 9, 2009 15:56:59 GMT -6
We don't have great numbers and we don't platoon. Our scout offense is made up of whoever is not playing defense. Sometimes that's offensive starters sometimes it's not. No matter who is on the scout team I don't see any value in practicing defense against a different offense than you'll be playing against. I think you are missing the point Phantom... When you run your offense... the scout defense has to run a defense that the other team is going to use... If you were a spread team... they'd give you a spread defense... If you were a power team... they'd give you a goalline defense... We are arguing... that that 20 min. segment of goalline defense, that your scout team gets, that is comprised of some of your starters, is beneficial to your team overall... Helps to instill that toughness... that you don't get, when you are a passing squad, and that 20 minutes per practice is spent, pass rushing and dropping back into coverage.
|
|
|
Post by Coach Huey on Jan 9, 2009 16:19:59 GMT -6
so the "tough" team will win ... and you better make your defense "tough" by running a "tough" offense.. and, since your offense is "tough" then your team will be "tough" and you will be a winner because you are "tough"...
uh, what is "tough" again? oh, yeah, it isn't the spread ... and no spread team can be "tough" and all spread teams will have "soft" offenses. but, wait, now, that daing 'ol wing-t is "tough" man, those teams that run the wing-t sure are "tough"... my defense is "soft" (whatever that is) so i should switch to the wing-t or some other "tougher" offense, then my defense will become "tough"..
this is ridiculous... some people really have a messed up idea of how some things are connected directly, some things indirectly connected, and some things not remotely connected.
let me count the ways:
no-huddle = you can't control the clock, your guys get fatigued but if you go huddle then you can control the tempo and wear out the defense (oh, provided you run that "tough" offense)
spread = pass = soft = soft defense
double wing = can't pass = junior high = can't play from behind
shotgun = spread = which means you are soft ... daing it
why do we have to discuss things that are of little consequence?
what in the hell is a "soft" offense? what is a "tough" one? spread teams only stop spread teams and can't stop pro-I teams? pro-I teams can't defend passes from the spread --- oh, but they are "tough" so they can defend runs and any pass from that tough pro-I formation.
i wish i was "tough" ...
|
|
|
Post by khalfie on Jan 9, 2009 17:14:20 GMT -6
so the "tough" team will win ... and you better make your defense "tough" by running a "tough" offense.. and, since your offense is "tough" then your team will be "tough" and you will be a winner because you are "tough"... uh, what is "tough" again? oh, yeah, it isn't the spread ... and no spread team can be "tough" and all spread teams will have "soft" offenses. but, wait, now, that daing 'ol wing-t is "tough" man, those teams that run the wing-t sure are "tough"... my defense is "soft" (whatever that is) so i should switch to the wing-t or some other "tougher" offense, then my defense will become "tough".. this is ridiculous... some people really have a messed up idea of how some things are connected directly, some things indirectly connected, and some things not remotely connected. let me count the ways: no-huddle = you can't control the clock, your guys get fatigued but if you go huddle then you can control the tempo and wear out the defense (oh, provided you run that "tough" offense) spread = pass = soft = soft defense double wing = can't pass = junior high = can't play from behind shotgun = spread = which means you are soft ... daing it why do we have to discuss things that are of little consequence? what in the hell is a "soft" offense? what is a "tough" one? spread teams only stop spread teams and can't stop pro-I teams? pro-I teams can't defend passes from the spread --- oh, but they are "tough" so they can defend runs and any pass from that tough pro-I formation. i wish i was "tough" ... Excellent point... Even more so entertaining... Entirely too extremish... All we are saying... is that the extra 20 minutes one receives while imitating scout defense... is akin to a 20 min. tackling drill. That other teams otherwise don't get. That's it.. that's all... I'm not sayin'... I'm just sayin'
|
|
|
Post by knighter on Jan 12, 2009 10:16:06 GMT -6
As a DW'er I can say 100% NO it does not hurt your defense at all. You have to be sure to get extra reps in pass defense, but overall I believe it helps your team defensively to develop a much more aggressive and physical style.
|
|
|
Post by superpower on Jan 12, 2009 11:04:07 GMT -6
Brad is right about the DW on offense helping to create a physical, aggressive style of defense. The DW is like playing defense because the OL are always hunting for someone to hit. Our kids love that aspect of the DW.
|
|
|
Post by knighter on Jan 12, 2009 11:16:58 GMT -6
I think it is quite advantageous that the way we teach blocking carries over almost directly into how we teach tackling with Wyatt's system. (for Super and I anyway)
I agree Huey, I have seen a spread team or 2 that are most assuredly not "soft" on defense. And I have seen some "ground and pound" offenses that are not "tough" defensively.
It all comes down to coaching....no scheme necessarily is "soft" or "tough" just because of itself...
|
|
|
Post by dubber on Jan 12, 2009 11:39:45 GMT -6
How long does it take you to actually make a post that includes three photos in it? Not that hard when you practice, practice, practice... That took about 55 seconds.
|
|
|
Post by cjamerson on Jan 12, 2009 14:24:42 GMT -6
We ran the wing t and we were far from "tough". Maybe "tough" to watch...
|
|
|
Post by undertakerx on Jan 13, 2009 10:20:06 GMT -6
I agree it all comes down to practice but at a smaller school like i am at we try to two platoon. We have 1 hour of offensive practice and 1 hour of defensive practice. Most heavy run teams have an inside run period everyday full speed hard hitting take down run period, we have 1 ten minute inside run period a week and we throw in some passes to keep the LB's honest. We use the starting defense for the scout team to get a good look. So we use our starting offense as scout team, the o-line have a hard time getting in a 3 point stance staying low and driving people off the ball they are all use to zone blocking.
Spring ball its our offense vs our defense so all the defense gets is air raid.
The question is does it make them less tough i dont think that i just think it changes how they tackle and play. Instead of taking a down hill angle and blowing up a RB they have to read pass first then when they are defending passes they play the ball then grab the WR around their legs. It seems like they are not as tough. I also think u put in DB's that can cover better and may not be able to tackle as good.
I am the OC and run air raid and i hate playing run heavy teams our defense stacks the box and the defense is sound but the LB's and DB's are always a step behind and give up 4 yards a pop. When we play shotgun teams that throw the ball our defense does a lot better.
|
|
|
Post by outlawjoseywales on Jan 13, 2009 16:42:25 GMT -6
Awesome conversation here from some of the best minds on this site, great.
My 2cents, if it's worth that. I've come in and out of doublewing over the years. We are a small school that has many that go both ways. We play small schools whose players also have to go both ways. So we are apples to apples.
I have to agree with the guys that say that it's what you do in practice that might make you "seem" soft. With "soft" meaning: Linebackers that would rather drop back than blow-up an Iso. Defensive Tackles that want to pass rush every snap, instead of stand and fight. DB's that DON'T WANT to tackle.
This is what I think of when I think "soft." This really has nothing to do with my offensive system.
It has to do with-do I practice defense?
I know this personally. There are several coaches in my conference that are "pass happy" or "pass crazy" if you will. For these guys the only thing better than another pass play is another pass play. Of course they are up on all the latest trends in "Shotgundom."
I know that they spend most of their time on offense. I know that they spend most of the offensive time running pass patterns.
While I am considered to be boring in their eyes, I don't lose to these guys because we run over them.
Some would say we are tough and they are soft. But they are not soft, they have almost exactly the same kind of kids that I have. Actually they have better athletes and I hve just a bunch of old country boys.
They just don't spend enough time on the basics. They spend way too much time on pass patterns. News flash guys: the passing game is very expensive in practice time. It takes a long time to create a sophisticated passing system. It eats up my time too.
But knowing them personally and knowing the way they do things, they don't spend enough time blocking and tackling and base "boring" run plays. Mainly because they are young guys, and don't know what they really need to spend time doing.
Sad to say, one of them got fired a few days ago. Won 1 or 2 games per year for the last 3 years.
But man, his passing game looks great. I even picked his brain on how is quick game is so good. He said last week that's because he spends alot of time on it. DUH!
They just can't stop anybody from running over them. Defense is aweful and they tackle like crap. They are "soft." Whose fault is that? It's the head coach who doesn't tell his linemen that they have to "die for that little patch of grass."
The "softness" is not the system, it's the coach.
We run the ball most of the time, passing about 8-19 times a game when I'm forced to. However, we also spend alot of time, with these same kids, practicing defense and pass coverages.
But I'm not pure Doublewing either, so take that fow what it's worth.
Don't claim to know anything, just been coaching for a while.
OJW
|
|
|
Post by dg1694 on Jan 13, 2009 18:05:04 GMT -6
The way you practice hurts your defense. The way you coach hurts your defense. Your offense doesn't hurt your offense if you ask me. The school I use to coach at went from a punishing rushing team/hard hitting defense to a spread and an "aggressive" style defense. The results have been mixed. Many people feel the team isn't as physical as they need to be or had been in the past and blame the spread. We have had some players transfer from this school and have talked to some of their coaches. They are not soft because of their offense, they are soft because they wear helmets and shoulder pads and don't hit all week. So it's not your system it's what you do Mon-Thrs in my opinion that will hurt you the most. BINGO!!! perception is NOT reality... wearing cowboy boots don't make you a cowboy ... I agree with this. I consider my identity to be that of a passing game guy -- but we've had a physical 9 on 7 run hull and a physical blitz period every place I've coached. The last place I coached had a 3500 yard passer, but also a big 'ol FB and O Line, and our best run was the power. Bottom line -- i think i worked with head coaches that did a good job of instilling toughness. So, we'd get in and out of sets ranging from 2 tight, two back to 5 wides and dictated to the defense. The was passing game was very diverse and sophisticated, but the run game was hard nosed and downhill. Because we were in gun 70% of the time people labled us spread, but we could also run for 200 when we needed to. I think it's about exerting the maximum amount of pressure on the other team, not just defensively, but offensively as well...put the other offense in a mindset that they need to score a bunch just to stay in the game.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2009 20:20:35 GMT -6
This question came to me as I researched the offense and how opponents try to stop it. It's basically the same issue that teams who run the Air Raid, Run and Shoot, SW, or any other unonventional offense faces. Does running the DW in practice hurt the preperation for your defense by robbing them of "quality" reps? This is probably a moot point for those of you who can two platoon your starters and then two platoon your scout teams, too. But if you've got that type of massive talent pool to draw from, I presume you're probably not going to run the DW anyway. My line of thinking here is this: if you run an offense that's closer to the norm, your defenders, even when playing scout defense, still get a lot of good, solid reps on fundamental things such as taking on blocks, reading blockers, pass defense, etc. But against the DW, teams tend to lose their minds and throw all sorts of weird, desperate crap at you. Submarining linemen on every snap, tackling your Gs, double teaming your C so he gets jammed into the backfield, etc. If have to devote practice time to simulating that in practice every week knowing you'll likely never ask your own defenders to do it in a game, aren't those wasted reps for your own defensive players? Or do you just not even worry about that stuff until it comes up in a game, or find that the benefits of the added time of possession outweigh this concern? This is something you hear about the Run and Shoot. Say you're running the RAS in a run-heavy league so your base defense is a 53. In order to rep things during team, you've got to cobble together a scout team D with some of your starters sitting on the sidelines or playing out of position. Even those reps that your 1s get in this scout defense aren't necessarily doing the same sort of stuff they need to master to play effectively against your opponents on Fridays. So, what's your experience been with it? I know OJW is a defensive-minded HC with a small roster who loves the DW too. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Ok here I go again, being the Double Wing Antichrist, but in my experience, I've found it can (hurt your own scheme). Unless you face alot of DW teams, make sure you rep your defense against at least the base plays of your upcoming opponent. We do films, then practice individual, then go team against scout.
|
|
|
Post by touchdownmaker on Jan 14, 2009 6:16:41 GMT -6
If a coach is dumb enough to practice against the double wing all week and not do recognition periods for what he faces in his league than obviously he can get hurt by this. I would imagine that the greater majority of double wing teams have players on their offense that start on their defense so I doubt seriously that the good ones neglect to practice against "normal" offenses. Double wing linemen probably feel naked in space when on the defensive side of the ball though. Those big splits must be very strange to them.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2009 18:08:49 GMT -6
I should've elaborated more, ...this holds true for ANY offense though
|
|
|
Post by champ93 on Jan 14, 2009 20:51:06 GMT -6
I think it is quite advantageous that the way we teach blocking carries over almost directly into how we teach tackling with Wyatt's system. (for Super and I anyway) We do the same as far as teaching blocking and tackling the same, except we use Murphy's BEEF progression. The consistency in the teaching has helped us greatly. This was our first year as DW and while we made many mistakes offensively in execution and playcalling, our defense was much more physical and better tackling than past years, giving up 120 pts less this year than last (we were shotgun wing-t in 07, not that it matters). We, like everyone else (I assume), practice defense against our scout running the other team's O. Yes, some of our scout O-line have trouble in space because they are used to no splits, but in 20 years of coaching, I've never seen a scout team protect their Q well. That's why I have a young athletic coach play scout Q--he can make chicken salad out of ____.
|
|