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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 29, 2008 10:24:38 GMT -6
Not from a fanboy perspective, but from a professional coaching perspective... what does it mean to us as professional coaches, both at the college and H.S. (because the attitudes always seep down to the H.S level to some degree) level that a coach with over a .700 winning percentage is fired because he hasn't produced lately, and replaced with a coach who has a career record of 5-15.
Can we take anything from this?
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Post by coachorr on Nov 29, 2008 10:38:38 GMT -6
Winning isn't everything?
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 29, 2008 10:43:21 GMT -6
Winning isn't everything? Well, then why is a LIFETIME Volunteer (Fulmer was a player, asst, and HC) dismissed for not winning? I find it a very curious event, and I am looking to gain some insight that would prove useful. |
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Post by utchuckd on Nov 29, 2008 10:51:31 GMT -6
Is your employment based on what you have accomplished, what you can accomplish, or some mix of the two? If you look at the numbers (yeah, I know, stats can say anything) Fulmer has not been producing anywhere near where he used to. Is 16 years of winning 70% of your games each year the same as 8 years winning 80% followed by 8 years of winning 60%? Anyway, if you've been somewhere for that long, you gotta keep winning big cause eventually people are ready for something different and want something different. And it doesn't matter who you are, if you only put 70 thousand in Neyland Stadium you're gonna get canned.
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Post by coachorr on Nov 29, 2008 10:55:06 GMT -6
I couldn't resist. I for one have never been a Fullmer fan as I am not sure he has acheived the true potential of the talent he has had.
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Post by 19delta on Nov 29, 2008 11:41:47 GMT -6
I'm assuming that Philip Fulmer was probably the highest, if not one of the highest paid public employees in the state of Tennessee. The guy was there a long time and had some good years but the long and short of it is that he hasn't produced lately.
Tennessee hasn't really even sniffed a national championship in ten years and when is the last time that Fulmer has won an SEC title? What is Tennessee's record against ranked teams since the National Championship season? And, I think what has really sealed his fate is his record against Florida, Auburn, Alabama, Georgia, and LSU in the last 5-or 6 years or so. In many of those games, Tennesee has really not been that competitive.
Now, where does that put Lane Kiffin? I don't know, but when you are making as much money as Fulmer is (didn't he just get a big contract extension last year?) and have the resources at your disposal that he does and not only are you not producing, you are actually getting worse, it is time to go.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 29, 2008 11:57:45 GMT -6
19delta-
Very valid points. Just to be clear, my point in starting this thread isn't to say that PF shouldn't have been let go. I don't follow Tenn enough to even care about that. It wasn't about one side or the other, but rather the combination of issues. It was to start an examination of the idea that if the dismissal was for the reasons you mentioned (and it probably was), what does it say to us, as professional coaches that the replacement was a 5-15 coach in his early 30's. How does this affect the future landscape of our profession.
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Post by utchuckd on Nov 29, 2008 12:09:36 GMT -6
If you look exclusively at his 5-15 record I think that's probably short sighted. What was the situation around that record, given that it was with one of the most jacked up organizations in sports? He may be a great coach that wasn't given a chance. He may also suck, but there's got to be some reason they went ahead and pulled the trigger on him. With so many unknowns it's hard to make a call without being in on the vetting and interviewing process.
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Post by coachtut on Nov 29, 2008 12:30:24 GMT -6
I don't know that UT made the right hire here. If I am trying to build a football power I want a head coach in college that did well as a HEAD COACH in college.
On a different note, I hope Coach Kiffin does well at UT. That jackass Al Davis tried to bury him. I hope he does very, very well.
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Post by 19delta on Nov 29, 2008 12:44:06 GMT -6
Isn't Kiffin a UT guy?
I have to agree that the 5-15 record Kiffin had with Raiders is not really indicative of his coaching abilities. If anything, the Raiders team he coached, regardless of his record, was a lot more competitive than the post-Jon Gruden Raiders teams. The guy did a pretty good job with what he had tor work with.
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Post by utchuckd on Nov 29, 2008 12:46:25 GMT -6
Nope. No ties to UT. Gruden was a GA in Knoxville 20 years ago. |
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Post by 19delta on Nov 29, 2008 12:48:50 GMT -6
19delta- Very valid points. Just to be clear, my point in starting this thread isn't to say that PF shouldn't have been let go. I don't follow Tenn enough to even care about that. It wasn't about one side or the other, but rather the combination of issues. It was to start an examination of the idea that if the dismissal was for the reasons you mentioned (and it probably was), what does it say to us, as professional coaches that the replacement was a 5-15 coach in his early 30's. How does this affect the future landscape of our profession. Well...are you arguing that some kind of precedent has been set here? Because I would disagree with that. Older coaches who are no longer productive get replaced by young up and comers all of the time. No different than a big corporation forcing older, higher-paid executives to retire in favor of some young hotshot or when a 50-year old man cheats on his wife with a 23-year old stripper. Experience only counts when experience is productive. When experience is no longer productive, youth will triumph. |
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roc
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Post by roc on Nov 29, 2008 13:22:09 GMT -6
Kiffin will do well at UT, he did well at USC didn't get a chance with THE RAIDERS! he's young and still growing. Football needs fresh blood instead of overpaid recycled coaches. Good luck!!!!!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2008 13:24:31 GMT -6
Not from a fanboy perspective, but from a professional coaching perspective... what does it mean to us as professional coaches, both at the college and H.S. (because the attitudes always seep down to the H.S level to some degree) level that a coach with over a .700 winning percentage is fired because he hasn't produced lately, and replaced with a coach who has a career record of 5-15. Can we take anything from this? It's not about what you've done, it's about what you've done lately (or what you have the potential to do, in kiffin's case....surprising hire to me too) |
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Post by Bill Vasko on Nov 29, 2008 14:42:52 GMT -6
Will Kiffin's dad follow him??.....
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Post by coachcb on Nov 29, 2008 15:22:57 GMT -6
Not from a fanboy perspective, but from a professional coaching perspective... what does it mean to us as professional coaches, both at the college and H.S. (because the attitudes always seep down to the H.S level to some degree) level that a coach with over a .700 winning percentage is fired because he hasn't produced lately, and replaced with a coach who has a career record of 5-15. Can we take anything from this? It's not about what you've done, it's about what you've done lately (or what you have the potential to do, in kiffin's case....surprising hire to me too) I don't even think it's that simple. I think it's more a matter of what you have done recently, coupled with HOW you did it. |
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Post by 1ispread on Nov 29, 2008 15:58:30 GMT -6
I take from it. Young & hungry with lots of energey. Its a what have you done this year profession. Dog eat dog. Even if Phil Fullmer was fired unjustly, he is leaving a rich man. he has plenty to thank the University for.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 29, 2008 16:25:54 GMT -6
Tim Brando and the CBS studio crew just beat me to it..BUT, I do think it is important to mention that UT missed a golden opportunity to have a decent process here. 119 FBS (1A) jobs, 2 black coaches. I think Charlie Strong definitely deserved access to the process.
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Post by 1ispread on Nov 29, 2008 16:32:36 GMT -6
Excellent thought 5085! I agree 100%
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Post by headtrip on Nov 29, 2008 16:33:53 GMT -6
19delta- Very valid points. Just to be clear, my point in starting this thread isn't to say that PF shouldn't have been let go. I don't follow Tenn enough to even care about that. It wasn't about one side or the other, but rather the combination of issues. It was to start an examination of the idea that if the dismissal was for the reasons you mentioned (and it probably was), what does it say to us, as professional coaches that the replacement was a 5-15 coach in his early 30's. How does this affect the future landscape of our profession. not exactly the same situation, but gene stallings was let go from the cardinals (forget where they where then) and then lead alabama to a national championship a few years later. for some reason when a coach is being considered for a college head coach position, his pro record isn't that big of a deal. another thing to consider is that for some coaches, the game just passes them by. since 2000 tennessee has been a mediocre team and the past 2 years have been terrible. the ship was sinking and PF couldn't do anything about it. |
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Post by utchuckd on Nov 29, 2008 16:35:50 GMT -6
Is he on anybody else's list? UT ain't the only job open this year.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 29, 2008 16:50:38 GMT -6
19delta- Very valid points. Just to be clear, my point in starting this thread isn't to say that PF shouldn't have been let go. I don't follow Tenn enough to even care about that. It wasn't about one side or the other, but rather the combination of issues. It was to start an examination of the idea that if the dismissal was for the reasons you mentioned (and it probably was), what does it say to us, as professional coaches that the replacement was a 5-15 coach in his early 30's. How does this affect the future landscape of our profession. not exactly the same situation, but gene stallings was let go from the cardinals (forget where they where then) and then lead alabama to a national championship a few years later. for some reason when a coach is being considered for a college head coach position, his pro record isn't that big of a deal. Yes, but Stallings had a MUCH greater resume than Kiffen at that point in his career. He had worked under Bryant, Landry for 14 years, and had been the Header at Tex A&M prior to coaching the Cardinals. Perhaps. Of course, "everyone" knew the game had passed Coach Paterno by.....years ago. Guess he is catching his second wind... Again, not trying to say Fulmer should not have been dismissed, OR that Kiffin was a horrible hire (only time will tell). Just saying that as someone involved in the coaching profession, what can we glean from this. And..i will admit, it is a bit unnerving that someone with 35 years can be quickly replaced by someone who really hasn't accomplished ANYTHING of substance in that capacity. |
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Post by utchuckd on Nov 29, 2008 16:54:14 GMT -6
as someone involved in the coaching profession, what can we glean from this. That it CAN happen to you. Whoever you are. |
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Post by headtrip on Nov 29, 2008 17:00:56 GMT -6
Again, not trying to say Fulmer should not have been dismissed, OR that Kiffin was a horrible hire (only time will tell). Just saying that as someone involved in the coaching profession, what can we glean from this. i don't think you'll be able to come up with any decent thoughts until you find out why tennessee picked kiffin. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 29, 2008 17:43:10 GMT -6
I'm glad to see you guys questioning this hire... Because, as a Black man... I think I see it all the time. Guy, with no real credentials, but looks the part, gets the gig quite often. Lane is what... 23 years old? He's done so much, besides getting paid millions to over see a train wreck in Oakland. But again... its the age old scenerio of not what you know... but who you know... All I know, is that there are PLENTY of unproven coaches out there...I would understand a quick hire if they pulled the trigger on someone proven. But here....well, I know if I were Charlie Strong, I wouldn't be terribly happy. Or even worse, Turner Gill. What a great job this guy did. I am just really surprised at how quick it happened, considering the actual result. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2008 19:39:37 GMT -6
Agree with Khal. I'm not African-American but the stats are flat-out embarrassing. I think eventually you'll have some sort of "Rooney Rule" in college football. You can debate the relevance and effectiveness of that rule, but it at least gets guys in the door, so to speak.
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Post by cbrown18 on Nov 29, 2008 21:53:24 GMT -6
IMO, I believe UT clearly sees what they are up against - a stacked SEC of several HC's with National Championships on their resumes. And they will continue to have a very tough time recruiting in the South, East & North. Kiffin did a very good job for SC out West... and before everyone says how easy it is to get those kids at SC... for everyone who has actually recruited for any period of time... nothings easy... especially being at the top... as soon as you have that attitude... down you go.
To get back to my point... IMO UT may feel as though they need a younger players coach to get the kids they need to attract them from the west coast to a UT and compete at a higher level in the SEC.
Just remember... this is a cyclical business.
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sin86
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Post by sin86 on Nov 29, 2008 22:18:47 GMT -6
Being from Tennessee and a UT fan I can tell you my perception of the matter. First Fulmer never appeared to be an active recruiter. Last year Saban was making rounds and headlines recruiting his butt off while Fulmer was sitting on his. Second the offense just kept sputtering year after year and there was no apparent attempt to fix other than change coordinators and scheme. Again, I think purposeful recruiting and better execution may have done more than cosmetic changes. Third there was a belief that Fulmer may not have discipline with all of the players in the last few years. Basically from my point of view Fulmer seemed lazy and disconnected from the program so it was time to go.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 29, 2008 22:56:25 GMT -6
Being from Tennessee and a UT fan I can tell you my perception of the matter. First Fulmer never appeared to be an active recruiter. Last year Saban was making rounds and headlines recruiting his butt off while Fulmer was sitting on his. Second the offense just kept sputtering year after year and there was no apparent attempt to fix other than change coordinators and scheme. Again, I think purposeful recruiting and better execution may have done more than cosmetic changes. Third there was a belief that Fulmer may not have discipline with all of the players in the last few years. Basically from my point of view Fulmer seemed lazy and disconnected from the program so it was time to go. As a coach, I am not really as interested in the dismissal of Fulmer, as I am the process by which he was apparently replaced. Was there a search committee? Interviewing process? What was the thought process behind replacing a 150 game winner/ NC coach (albeit the program hasn't performed as well lately) with someone with NO college HC experience, NO track record of success. Does any of that mean that Kiffin won't be successful? Absolutely not. But, as a member of this profession, the apparent lack of a real process in this matter combined with the actual hire (NO college HC experience, NO track record of success as a head coach) is a little concerning. I could see a quick hire if it was someone with a more substantial resume. The recruiting angle mentioned above makes some sense, but Eddie O was the real recruiting force at USC, and Ole Miss didn't benefit from an influx of West Coasters. I am not really sold on the idea that Kiffin will be able to drag kids 2,000 miles. Time will always tell. |
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Post by ack32 on Nov 29, 2008 23:00:22 GMT -6
We simply live in a day of What have You done for me Lately........
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