jlt
Junior Member
Posts: 313
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Post by jlt on Sept 29, 2008 4:53:46 GMT -6
Gents,
I coach in the UK and in the area I am in there is not a big religous base. Most of the area I coach in is classed as non practising christians.
There are a few players on my team who are church goers and I noticed before gametime they either gather round in the changing rooms and say the lords prayer together or on their own. Now as a person I am also a non practising, and am not fussed at all about this. As a coach I like the fact that they (now I have taken time to type this as im not sure how to say it ). I like the fact they find football a strong enough influence that they would call upon help and guidance from upstairs before they go into a game, and I have noticed some of the other players looking upon them with jealousy. As though they would like to be a part of it.
Over time I have noticed more and more players having their own religous quirks. I coach for a college team that as fat as I know all christian. Would it be wrong and overstep my boundries to suggest we hold a team prayer before going out on the field?
Would it be wrong to have non practising people take part in that? I am pretty sure they would go for it, and I feel it would bring an extra bit of team unity with it, but could it make people feel uncomfortable?
Suggestions please.
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Post by 1ispread on Sept 29, 2008 6:08:04 GMT -6
I dont see anything wrong with it. A non practicing Christian? Is that like a non practicing football player?
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Post by coachwoodall on Sept 29, 2008 6:26:04 GMT -6
I would suggest to the those players leading the prayer before games/practices that they openly invite anyone who thats wants to participate in the prayer/devotion that they are doing. Let those players be the leaders if you feel uncomfortable. Also here is a great link to help them with the devotions: www.fca.org/ |
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Post by touchdownmaker on Sept 29, 2008 6:28:46 GMT -6
why not just gather as a team and have a few moments of silence where each player can do his own thing in prayer quietly. you are demonstrating that union as a team yet each player can worship if he or she chooses.
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jlt
Junior Member
Posts: 313
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Post by jlt on Sept 29, 2008 7:08:37 GMT -6
I like the idea from touchdownmaker. That way we as a team are huddled. Each player can do what they want. Reflective thinking before the battle.
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mike13
Sophomore Member
Posts: 108
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Post by mike13 on Sept 29, 2008 7:40:10 GMT -6
We always have a team prayer. Better to have 12 on the field than 11.
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Post by casec11 on Sept 29, 2008 7:42:29 GMT -6
I would suggest to the those players leading the prayer before games/practices that they openly invite anyone who thats wants to participate in the prayer/devotion that they are doing. Last year my youth team 13 yr olds was made up of a few different religions and they all prayed together.. BTW they did this on their own and I always enjoy seeing them come together for it. Also you could have them invite the others and maybe ask if they want to say something also that has to do with thier religion. |
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Post by splitricky5 on Sept 29, 2008 8:16:15 GMT -6
Why not? Anybody who does not want to participate is free to choose not to. No problem with that at all.
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Post by k on Sept 30, 2008 10:10:38 GMT -6
No.
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Post by coachlu on Oct 4, 2008 10:58:20 GMT -6
we always do a team prayer b4 each game and it starts like this. If you dont pray to my god pray to yours, its worked great no complaints from anybody, parents or administration.
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Post by carson101 on Oct 4, 2008 12:07:29 GMT -6
I recently asked if I could pass out flyers on our new church opening and the request was presented as that wouldn't be a great idea. Although our varsity has team prayer before each game with a former pastor.It irks me that the church vs state is total bull and the longer it is a oppositional discussion kids will continue to be deprived of having a on the field experience with god.
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Post by k on Oct 4, 2008 18:16:07 GMT -6
How about you preach your faith in your church and in your home and you act like a professional and just do your job without trying to force your faith on a bunch of kids. That is of course unless you're a Christian/Islamic/Whatever school then go ahead and preach it away it is your job. If you're at a public school and you're preaching your religion to kids I honestly hope you lose every game and get replaced by someone who wants to be a football coach and not a priest.
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Post by schultbear74 on Oct 4, 2008 18:49:31 GMT -6
I'm aware that some people feel that there is no place for religion in public school.
K--- Think of it this way: by promoting non-religion, you are also promoting a belief. There is a strange tendency to promote non-religion over religion. People who feel self-righteous about promoting non-religion over religion are just as bigoted as one who feel self-righteous about religion.
Tolerance is a two way street. Intolerance is always a source of conflict.
K--- I hope that you win every game-- unless you are playing my team.
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Post by k on Oct 4, 2008 19:17:43 GMT -6
I'm aware that some people feel that there is no place for religion in public school. You want religion in a public school move to Iran. LOL by not praying in the public school we're promoting something? How about not. How about we stop being massively unprofessional and immoral by trying to manipulate young children into following your religious beliefs and allow their parents to have that role that they have the right to? The ultra radicals who want to push their religion onto young children would freak out if it was of another faith or as this thread shows would freak out if THEIR BELIEF ISN'T BEING FORCED ONTO YOUNG CHILDREN. Your comparison is faulty. An equivalent would be someone preaching atheism to your child and taking away your right to bring up your child as you see fit religiously. However the extremists of all faiths want to claim that not forcing their beliefs on young children is somehow favoring all other beliefs other than theirs. It is dangerous to our children and dangerous to our republic. I firmly believe that they are both hurting their football team (I watched group prayer cost us the state championship in high school when two of our best players quit the team because of it). This is what I love about the people who desire to push their faith on young and impressionable children be them atheists, Muslims, Christians, or anything else is that they pretend that if you don't tolerate their desire to use tax dollars to manipulate children into following their faith you are an evil intolerant person. The reality is that pushing any religious agenda in a public school is the work of a person who thinks they are doing good but in every way is hurting their football team and hurting their kids. I can't say the same about any public school official who uses their classroom or athletic field to manipulate children. I feel bad for the kids who have to put up with it and I just hope that those people who do this lose as many games as quickly as possible and replaced by a more professional coach/teacher. If you want to preach your religion on the football field? No problem. Coach at a private school and stop using our tax dollars to manipulate children and push your religious agenda. |
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Post by schultbear74 on Oct 4, 2008 20:38:17 GMT -6
First of all, did I mention what my religious agenda was? Why do you assume that I am a Christian? I have taught at a religious school before, but do not now. I have never led students in a prayer at a public school, but I have never stopped one or a group from praying.
In fact, your response was very preachy and very demeaning of my beliefs of which you have no clue.
The first amendment protects religious expression, but it does not prefer non-religion over religion. So your argument is ridiculous as well as faulty.
Your arguments are tremendously biased. I urge you to send me all of your currency that has "In God we trust" on it. I'll handle it for you-- regardless of what I may or may not believe. I do pay taxes though and they are not just "our" tax dollars- they are also mine and yours. We both should have a voice in deciding what to do with them.
By the way, enjoy Public education while you can. I'll leave it to you all to soon.
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Post by schultbear74 on Oct 4, 2008 20:50:57 GMT -6
By the way K-- My wife says that you are a sad sad person who needs a mommy
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Post by coachsky on Oct 4, 2008 22:23:06 GMT -6
I'm a Christian, A parent, A high School Coach, I serve on or Young Life Board. I practice.
I don't want prayer at school functions. I pray with High School kids all the time. Never in my direct role as coach. Almost never on campus, it has happened, went aside privately.
I don't want my kids to have sit through activities from other faiths, so I'll limit myself from direct evangelism and practicing my religion outwardly at school functions.
I can help spread God's love without prayer and evangelizing at school. You want to pray, I''ve got a bible study and milk and donuts at my house after lifting on Saturday mornings. Come as you are and it's okay if you don't. Doesn't change how much God loves them.
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Post by k on Oct 4, 2008 22:48:54 GMT -6
First of all, did I mention what my religious agenda was? Why do you assume that I am a Christian? Actually I didn't. You could be a Muslim seeking to push your religious agenda for all I know. If you're not actively seeking to get the children to pray than your original post had no point. Thats nice... I'm sorry I guess unless we're out trying to manipulate children in order to spread your personal beliefs we're obviously hating on whatever your preferred religion is... Yes and if your voice is advocating using tax dollars to manipulate children into believing your particular religious views there is already a country that does that. Go to Iran. If you're seeking to manipulate children into believing you're particular religious beliefs you have no place in public education or coaching in a public school. People who do that by advocating prayer in public school etc are the worst possible kind of teachers whether they are advocating Liberalism, Conservativism, Christianity, Islam, Wicca, Atheism, Hinduism or any other particular agenda. |
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Post by k on Oct 4, 2008 22:50:26 GMT -6
By the way K-- My wife says that you are a sad sad person who needs a mommy Thats nice. |
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Post by towtheline on Oct 4, 2008 23:08:39 GMT -6
Is no one going to tell this guy that it isn't ok to be a prick?
You make it sound like children are being brainwashed. Maybe you should go curl up and die somewhere?
Concerning the original question: its a touchy issue, let players do whatever pregame ritual they wish. Those that wish to participate in prayer will do so and those that don't simply will not. And I'm not sure that spending about 60-90 seconds praying together will unite many people, especially because there are probably many other rah rah activities they do before the games that makes them feel united.
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Post by k on Oct 4, 2008 23:38:05 GMT -6
Is no one going to tell this guy that it isn't ok to be a prick? You make it sound like children are being brainwashed. Maybe you should go curl up and die somewhere? I'll pass on the curling up and dieing thing but I'm sorry that you don't think that parents should have the right to raise their kids and send them to public schools without some teacher or coach trying to manipulate them in a massively unprofessional way into their faith. I'll keep my religion in my home and in my church and not try to slam it down the throats of easily influenced children that look up to me thus spitting in the face of every parent who trusts me to act professionally and not push some personal agenda on their children. Or it will divide the team and drive off players as it did on my high school team when the Catholic HC from an earlier generation had us take a knee and pray. Anyone could just walk out but anyone who knows anything about kids knows that isn't going to happen because the kids don't want to be seen as an outsider. It cost us a Jewish DB/WR and an Evangelical OL/DL... Two of our best players. One removed himself the other's parents removed him. Could have been the difference in the state championship game... All because a coach couldn't put aside his personal agenda whether he realized that is what it was or not and not alienate kids because he thought that everyone thought like he did just because a solid majority of the community was Catholic. I've got kids who pray before (and after) games and I have no problem with it. After stretching they always go off to the side and handle their business. Completely different from team prayer regardless of who it is led by (coaches or players). It is very very simple if you feel the need for team prayer get yourself to a private school and do just that. If you feel the need for team prayer in a public school go to Iran. |
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Post by liberalhater on Oct 4, 2008 23:42:42 GMT -6
So now we are now allowed to share our faith in public? We are not allowed to have opinions in public? I dont care what party you belong to, I dont care what religion you belong to it is your right at least for now to share your opinions and religion with others, But it is also my right at least for now and as well for you, to reject what I feel is wrong.
If you dont want to pray, I am not forcing you to, you have a right to not participate.
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Post by towtheline on Oct 4, 2008 23:49:36 GMT -6
Is no one going to tell this guy that it isn't ok to be a prick? You make it sound like children are being brainwashed. Maybe you should go curl up and die somewhere? I'll pass on the curling up and dieing thing but I'm sorry that you don't think that parents should have the right to raise their kids and send them to public schools without some teacher or coach trying to manipulate them in a massively unprofessional way into their faith. I'll keep my religion in my home and in my church and not try to slam it down the throats of easily influenced children that look up to me thus spitting in the face of every parent who trusts me to act professionally and not push some personal agenda on their children. Or it will divide the team and drive off players as it did on my high school team when the Catholic HC from an earlier generation had us take a knee and pray. Anyone could just walk out but anyone who knows anything about kids knows that isn't going to happen because the kids don't want to be seen as an outsider. It cost us a Jewish DB/WR and an Evangelical OL/DL... Two of our best players. One removed himself the other's parents removed him. Could have been the difference in the state championship game... All because a coach couldn't put aside his personal agenda whether he realized that is what it was or not and not alienate kids because he thought that everyone thought like he did just because a solid majority of the community was Catholic. I've got kids who pray before (and after) games and I have no problem with it. After stretching they always go off to the side and handle their business. Completely different from team prayer regardless of who it is led by (coaches or players). It is very very simple if you feel the need for team prayer get yourself to a private school and do just that. If you feel the need for team prayer in a public school go to Iran. I didn't suggest a team prayer. Actually I recommended against it. It sounds to me like you are just bitter about not winning state. Also if players will quit the football team you live to far north for my liking. Probably full of liberals and democrats |
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Post by k on Oct 5, 2008 0:54:08 GMT -6
I didn't suggest a team prayer. Actually I recommended against it. OP: Would it be wrong and overstep my boundries to suggest we hold a team prayer before going out on the field? If I'm bitter it is because I'm disgusted to see people who would disrespect their team and their team's parents by attempting to use a public school as a pulpit and hold team prayer sessions. If you got a problem with liberals and democrats you probably should avoid watching the news next month. It is gonna be a blood bath and apparently at your expense. =) |
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Post by coachorr on Oct 5, 2008 1:40:52 GMT -6
I feel uncomfortable praying with the kids, just as I feel uncomfortable with many things in my job. If it makes me uncomfortable, I usually do not address it.
Like women teachers on my staff had made comments about girls who have managed to go through several class periods a day without anyone saying anything. I tell them, oh I am glad you brought it up, I will keep a watch out for it and then I do NOTHING about it and I never ever will. Just not going to do it, on one hand, probably did not notice it and on the other, I feel it would make me feel uncomfortable to do it.
Bottom line, we have to play the game that allows us to keep our jobs. Praying may be too big of a risk. If you are willing to lose your job over it, then I say have a prayer, if you are willing to make a compromise and allow kids to pray on their own, then that is what I would do.
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Post by schultbear74 on Oct 5, 2008 9:11:23 GMT -6
M y last word on the subject is that I have enjoyed the argument. I found it interesting that there was an angry tone to the argument. I found it interesting that it became political, north and south, liberal and conservative.
I am not sorry for being a devil's advocate or a crap stirrer. It has been a education. Thank you gentlemen.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 5, 2008 9:30:36 GMT -6
whoa...i think this is a legit question..that is getting WAY to personal and feisty.
I am staunchly against it, having coached at (and attended) Catholic school, coached at public schools at the jr. high, high school and college levels, and have coached at an independent private school with a large (30%-40% maybe higher) enrollment of Jewish students. The independent school experience really cemented my "non prayer" beliefs, because it was one of the few times where you KNEW that the team members were practicing different faiths.
I ask, for those who pray at the public school..how many do you really not see how you are really putting certain people in a bind?
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Post by fort on Oct 5, 2008 10:00:31 GMT -6
Bottom line, if you advocate team prayer in a public school, you ARE ostracizing someone on that team. I'm not so sure that should be in any coach's philosophy.
I'm not so against some sort of "moment of focus," but you are making a huge mistake if you think it's okay to have team prayer. I've got to agree with K, in that it is simply horrid to see coaches do this.
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Post by liberalhater on Oct 5, 2008 10:26:53 GMT -6
So I am as a man of faith I dont have the right to live that out? So by that logic, Gay people should not be allowed to be gay in public?
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Post by k on Oct 5, 2008 11:28:31 GMT -6
So I am as a man of faith I dont have the right to live that out? So by that logic, Gay people should not be allowed to be gay in public? Did anyone say that you shouldn't have the right to take a moment aside and pray? One of our Frosh coaches always sits down on the bench and prays while the kids are doing their dynamic warmup. Absolutely nothing wrong with you practicing your faith. There is something wrong however with holding team prayer sessions. It is a violation of the trust that parents have placed in you. Just as it would be to use your team as a soap box to promote gay marriage which is the equivalent comparison not to "be gay." I don't know why this is a complicated thing for some of you. If you want to use your coaching position to preach your faith I'm all for that; do it. Just do it at a private school where that is clearly part of your job description and not in a public one where it is the very opposite of your job description. =) |
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