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Post by liberalhater on Oct 5, 2008 12:16:47 GMT -6
Did anybody say the kid has to participate. I may and will hold a team prayer, I will not force a kid to participate. But the kid has the right to think. and think for himself. and he has the right to say no.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 5, 2008 12:19:47 GMT -6
Did anybody say the kid has to participate. I may and will hold a team prayer, I will not force a kid to participate. But the kid has the right to think. and think for himself. and he has the right to say no. A Hobson's choice. Sorry, it does not fly.
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Post by liberalhater on Oct 5, 2008 12:32:25 GMT -6
It does fly. a true education does not tell people what to think or even how to think. if you think it does, go live in china.
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Post by k on Oct 5, 2008 12:40:41 GMT -6
Did anybody say the kid has to participate. I may and will hold a team prayer, I will not force a kid to participate. But the kid has the right to think. and think for himself. and he has the right to say no. Hatemonger, manipulating and ostracizing children since well probably his entire adult life.
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Post by liberalhater on Oct 5, 2008 12:42:23 GMT -6
pfft! your the one telling people how they should live and think. LOL!
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Post by liberalhater on Oct 5, 2008 12:45:01 GMT -6
K, I am for teaching kids to think for themselves. I believe in kids and their ability to think for themselves. I dont believe in dumbing it down. I dont believe kids do better if you coddle them. I believe they are far more capable than you give them credit for.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 5, 2008 12:45:29 GMT -6
It does fly. a true education does not tell people what to think or even how to think. if you think it does, go live in china. coach, again..above your paygrade. You are viewing the situation as an adult, and transferring an adult's psyche and emotional capabilities to an adolescent with your thought process. You offer a Hobson's choice...from the viewpoint of an avg teen. These are the age ranges where kids have mental breakdowns do to not fitting in at ALL levels..not wearing the right shoes..not having the right body shape...not driving the right car...not living in the right neighborhood....the list is endless. Your "they can choose not to" is a hobson's choice to most 13-18 year olds. NOT having a coach led prayer would be teaching the kids to "think for themselves". Holding a "team prayer" led by someone who for almost all purposes is a "dictator" in the situation ( a coach) is not allowing them to think for themselves.
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Post by knight9299 on Oct 5, 2008 12:48:41 GMT -6
I recently asked if I could pass out flyers on our new church opening and the request was presented as that wouldn't be a great idea. Although our varsity has team prayer before each game with a former pastor.It irks me that the church vs state is total bull and the longer it is a oppositional discussion kids will continue to be deprived of having a on the field experience with god. You'd think church vs state is bull UNTIL your CHURCH isn't controlling the state.
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Post by liberalhater on Oct 5, 2008 13:18:00 GMT -6
your assuming I am forcing the kids to participate. It depends on the individual.
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Post by liberalhater on Oct 5, 2008 13:23:46 GMT -6
your assuming kids are weak. as for my paygrade vs yours? lets put it this way I am not a teacher, I am in a higher tax bracket than you.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 5, 2008 13:31:02 GMT -6
your assuming kids are weak. as for my paygrade vs yours? lets put it this way I am not a teacher, I am in a higher tax bracket than you. No, I am assuming that you ask your kids to do what you lead them to do on the field. I seem to remember you ranting and raving about how "YOU WERE THE COACH" and the kids would never have the power to call their own plays and such...it is ignorant to think that a 14-18 year old is going to handle situations much differently than that. You further weaken your argument by stating that you aren't a teacher, meaning you don't spend 7-8 hours a day in the very environment we are discussing. As far as paygrade, I am going to assume you were just kidding, and that you actually knew what I was referring to. Just to correct you though, you do realize that passive and residual incomes are taxable, and therefore my current profession is not the sole determinant of my tax bracket...right?
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Post by k on Oct 5, 2008 14:00:34 GMT -6
your assuming I am forcing the kids to participate. It depends on the individual. You're either forcing the kids to participate or forcing them to ostracize themselves from the group. Either way it is massively scummy because you're either trying to indoctrinate children into your beliefs or to drive them away from the group. Either way you're violating the parents trust that is placed in you to do your job and not try and manipulate impressionable children.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 5, 2008 14:04:38 GMT -6
your assuming I am forcing the kids to participate. It depends on the individual. You're either forcing the kids to participate or forcing them to ostracize themselves from the group. Either way it is massively scummy because you're either trying to indoctrinate children into your beliefs or to drive them away from the group. I agree with you up to this point, although i am not sure "massively scummy' is the appropriate term. I really think it is just the standard U.S ethnocentric attitude. But you are correct here, holding a team prayer but "not forcing" anyone to particpate is (as I have said repeatedly in the thread) a hobson's choice. For this part, I would counter that many if not MOST parents would be IN FAVOR of the prayer. They too, would represent the ethnocentric believes exhibited by the coaches you are rallying against.
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Post by k on Oct 5, 2008 14:13:57 GMT -6
For this part, I would counter that many if not MOST parents would be IN FAVOR of the prayer. They too, would represent the ethnocentric believes exhibited by the coaches you are rallying against. I wouldn't be surprised if most parents would let me beat their child if they got out of line. That doesn't mean I can place a child into the place of having to seperate himself from the group or to beat him just because the majority of parents find it acceptable. Hell put into the place of getting beaten for what they did wrong or ostracizing themselves from the group they'll choose the former.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 5, 2008 14:18:32 GMT -6
For this part, I would counter that many if not MOST parents would be IN FAVOR of the prayer. They too, would represent the ethnocentric believes exhibited by the coaches you are rallying against. I wouldn't be surprised if most parents would let me beat their child if they got out of line. That doesn't mean I can place a child into the place of having to seperate himself from the group or to beat him just because the majority of parents find it acceptable. Hell put into the place of getting beaten for what they did wrong or ostracizing themselves from the group they'll choose the former. But you did say one of the issues was the "trust" of the parents.
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Post by jgordon1 on Oct 5, 2008 14:40:09 GMT -6
I might be one of the few non-christian coaches out there. we do the Lord's prayer before and after every game. I don't really even know the words expect for maybe the kingdom, the power for ever. Do i like the prayer. I don't know? Is it forced? I think some of the kids feel pressured? we have many Muslims on our team although no one has ever complained. What do I like about it?? Well, it is nice after a huge week of preparation to get in tight and say something quietly. after a loss (we are still undefeated Thank God LOL) I think it brings perspective. what do I do? I usually think of a relative or how nice that we are together. I pray for no injuries and I pray for strength. after the game I pray evryone hurries up so I can go out and get a beer
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 5, 2008 14:43:35 GMT -6
I might be one of the few non-christian coaches out there. we do the Lord's prayer before and after every game. I don't really even know the words expect for maybe the kingdom, the power for ever. Do i like the prayer. I don't know? Is it forced? I think some of the kids feel pressured? we have many Muslims on our team although no one has ever complained. What do I like about it?? Well, it is nice after a huge week of preparation to get in tight and say something quietly. after a loss (we are still undefeated Thank God LOL) I think it brings perspective. what do I do? I usually think of a relative or how nice that we are together. I pray for no injuries and I pray for strength. after the game I pray evryone hurries up so I can go out and get a beer I think that is kind of K's point. If you instead said a Muslim prayer...do you think you would get complaints? (If you believe the answer is no, I direct you to google search for the current events involving YOGA and students in NY)
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Post by jgordon1 on Oct 5, 2008 14:59:59 GMT -6
I am not sure we are trying to indoctrinate the kids but I liked your point about Muslim prayer. You are right that would be unaceptable. Tried your Google search. didn't get it, can you send a link
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Post by towtheline on Oct 5, 2008 15:38:37 GMT -6
are they seriously not gunna lock this?
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 5, 2008 16:58:19 GMT -6
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 5, 2008 17:00:08 GMT -6
are they seriously not gunna lock this? I don't think they should...as long as we continue along the professional route and steer away from personal attacks (which, yes, we have too many of in this thread). It is a very valid discussion.
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Post by los on Oct 5, 2008 18:26:16 GMT -6
Oh brother.....just read the link about the yoga......shoot, what about lacrosse....this is a high school "sport" in some states isn't it? Wasn't this game part of the "native american" culture with religious significance ......I don't think they were part of modern mainstream religion, so should this sport be banned in public institutions, because it had some religious significance, in its history? ....Not to mention most of the martial arts, with their exotic eastern religious backgrounds......not doing a coach sponsored, organized, team prayer thing,at a public school, I can understand....but the yoga....cmon people...lets relax, lol
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jlt
Junior Member
Posts: 313
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Post by jlt on Oct 6, 2008 2:13:47 GMT -6
Gents, gents, gents. Calm down.
Lets get back to the original question. Which I think has now been answered.
I have 2 options to choose from.
1- Dont do anything. 2- Hold a team 'quiet' minute where they can pray if they want or think about what they are going to do in the game.
JLT
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Post by los on Oct 6, 2008 6:10:51 GMT -6
I vote #1.....the guys will find their own time to do the things in #2, at some point ,before the game.....if they want to.
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Post by lsrood on Oct 6, 2008 7:09:46 GMT -6
I teach and coach at a public high school. Right before we head out on the field, we get together and everybody gets a hand on someone else and we take a couple of moments to reflect on where we are, how we got here, and how we want everyone to get throught the game healthy on both sides. Then I state very clearly, "If you want to say a prayer by yourself, you can do so at this time." Everyone remains silent and if they pray it is done internally and can be to whatever religion they choose. No one is forced to say anything out loud and the choice is a private one. After about a minute I start the pre-game speech and we head out onto the field. I have not received any complaints at all about this process. To me this seems to be the simplest solution by allowing the players to choose whether to pray or not and since everything is silent, there is no pressure on them to participate, nor is their choice obvious.
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Post by jgordon1 on Oct 6, 2008 7:42:23 GMT -6
I teach and coach at a public high school. Right before we head out on the field, we get together and everybody gets a hand on someone else and we take a couple of moments to reflect on where we are, how we got here, and how we want everyone to get throught the game healthy on both sides. Then I state very clearly, "If you want to say a prayer by yourself, you can do so at this time." Everyone remains silent and if they pray it is done internally and can be to whatever religion they choose. No one is forced to say anything out loud and the choice is a private one. After about a minute I start the pre-game speech and we head out onto the field. I have not received any complaints at all about this process. To me this seems to be the simplest solution by allowing the players to choose whether to pray or not and since everything is silent, there is no pressure on them to participate, nor is their choice obvious. If I ever became a head guy , this is what I would do
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 6, 2008 8:23:14 GMT -6
I teach and coach at a public high school. Right before we head out on the field, we get together and everybody gets a hand on someone else and we take a couple of moments to reflect on where we are, how we got here, and how we want everyone to get throught the game healthy on both sides. Then I state very clearly, "If you want to say a prayer by yourself, you can do so at this time." Everyone remains silent and if they pray it is done internally and can be to whatever religion they choose. No one is forced to say anything out loud and the choice is a private one. After about a minute I start the pre-game speech and we head out onto the field. I have not received any complaints at all about this process. To me this seems to be the simplest solution by allowing the players to choose whether to pray or not and since everything is silent, there is no pressure on them to participate, nor is their choice obvious. I agree, this is probably the best way to go
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Post by liberalhater on Oct 6, 2008 8:37:29 GMT -6
how many of you really coach? to many have to much time on your hands.
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Post by coachjimmer on Oct 6, 2008 19:21:20 GMT -6
By the way K-- My wife says that you are a sad sad person who needs a mommy This quote is very degrading and downright mean. It is not a good way to show what kind of faith you or your wife is having. That is not respect nor love. I am a religious person and I do not say or do anything to make another human being feel bad in any way, shape, form, etc. You or your wife need to apologize to K... I think it is time to lock this thread.
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Post by schultbear74 on Oct 6, 2008 19:47:01 GMT -6
I agree CoachJimmer, I was terribly flippant with what is a serious question to many people. It is time to lock this thread and agree to disagree. I sincerely apologize K for anything that I have written to which you might take offense. You are obviously a man who believes what you believe and I was wrong to show you any disrespect.
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