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Post by brophy on Apr 10, 2008 13:54:39 GMT -6
hrmph. I know I'm opening a political can of worms here, but here goes --- 1) I may have to (head)coach a team this year. 2) The team I would be a part of is part of a DW program that encourages a spread package at age 10 and up (runs air raid in MS) 3) I am looking at practice plans and how realistic implementation would be (303 total offensive reps) - with the possibility for more in team competitions. 4) I have talked with the directors at length on why they use a spread gun offense at that level, and it was just given as a bridge for MS, keep the kids interested, and as an added weapon. The following is the bar-napkin'ed implementation outline for each practice;  This isn't meant to be a two-headed beast monster concept, just looking to get some constructive feedback on if the gun stuff should be scrapped altogether or try to balance between bridging the concepts of two philosophies. This will be contingent, of course, on the available talent - but the practice format will mirror that of the Kentucky / air raid tempo practices of high-rep individual periods. (4) Vertical concept is used to introduce the alignment,stems, and read progression (to be used later in the year for teams that want to drop everyone so we can dump to the back). Speed Option is introduced as the run game (can run most all of the same concepts of DW from the gun - POWER/QB POWER/ LEAD draw), but becomes the HOT against blitz (option away from pressure). Mesh is what we is used as the bread-and-butter against the mainly man defenses we'll see, with Shallow to be introduced after they get this concept first. |
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Post by davecisar on Apr 10, 2008 15:07:16 GMT -6
Two very coaching intensive systems and option on top of it.
IMHO you are asking your kids to be Jack of all trades, masters of none.
If you remember from last year, even getting your kids to do an effective/ consistent wedge or super-power was a difficult task.
I Realize you have to do what they tell you to do, tough deal.
But with kids that age, non select kids and not practicing 6 days a week makes for a very uphill climb trying to do all that with 10 year olds. JMHO
Rapid reps no huddle are a have to, we do it with our very limited playbook.
With fit and freeze or 2 steps and freeze for the line ( pullers have to run it out) and 20 yards for the backs, we can get a play off every 20 seconds or less. We usually get 60-100+ offensive play reps in our team offensive segment of 20-40 minutes. With a very tiny playbook and a handful of integrated series of plays weve been able to score 35+ ppg over 8 seasons, so more isnt always "more". Im sure after last seaon you know that but maybe have no choice.
BEst of "luck"
If they force this on you, my guess is you guys won't consistently score a bunch of points.
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lbdad
Freshmen Member
Posts: 97
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Post by lbdad on Apr 10, 2008 15:38:22 GMT -6
brophy has the any of these peaple coached 10 yer olds before? that seams like alot to learn and like dave said jack of... teach them the art of "K.I.S.S. good luck
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Post by ampipebulldog on Apr 10, 2008 19:50:41 GMT -6
I just have to agree with what has been said. I coached that age 6 seasons, and 6-12 plays repped until the cows come home SEEMS to work far more than any other system attempted. As you know, that age is still a real mental developmental stage for kids, and you might be asking them for more than they should be doing at this time. The 11-12 year olds seem to grasp the concept a little better, but non-select ( I have coached both) kids at that age are still trying to figure out what DOWN means. Not to discourage anything you want or have to attempt, it just seems you are in a tough spot with what you are trying to do.
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Post by brophy on Apr 11, 2008 6:57:30 GMT -6
thanks for the discouragement.
After sleeping on it, I know it should be one or the other.
The goal is to be less unprepared as I was last season and actually have some other coaches with me.
I think I wanted to straddle the fence, dabble in both, then go full time air-raid by the 2nd game.
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Post by davecisar on Apr 11, 2008 8:53:34 GMT -6
Matt, Last season you said you were by yourself but had some dads that wanted to help that were less than qualified, so you did it all. Most of us are in the same boat EVERY year. As long as the dads are reasonably intelligent, even keeled and willing to follow your directions, they are coaching material. You're very good at putting all this media stuff together. Figure out which of the dads are the most trainable and train them to coach for you. You are always saying that even HS ball isnt "Rocket Science" well take that even further in Youth Football. With the proper training, management, quality control, scheme and accountability about any resonably competent dad can be an effective assistant coach. In fact some of the worst asst coaches I had in the 100's I've had in my org were ex college players. When my org put Priority #1 as Coach Training and Development, we had a huge increase in effectiveness, retention and wins. It will be time well spent for you, your team and your sanity  It's all about planning and development. I give each coach a very narrowly defined role. On game days it is all spelled out in minute detail including well defined concrete parameters , if-thens etc keys, adjustments, playing time, special situations etc etc. We practice it all on Thursday nights with the coaches, just like we practice the kids. In YOuth Football to be an effective HC you have to coach your coaches as well as your players. If you don't and your season turns south most will then blame their assistants or players rather than the fact they didnt effectively coach whatever dads they were dealt. |
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Post by brophy on Apr 11, 2008 9:08:24 GMT -6
If I can get coaches before August 3rd this year, that is the plan.
Last year, it was....(at the end of July) "Hey you're the head coach, we'll get you some help...."
If I can get some people together before July, we'll get it together. If not, I'll sit this one out.
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Post by davecisar on Apr 11, 2008 9:17:18 GMT -6
Matt,
Just remember, most of the guys you are coaching against are in the same boat as you in non-select football. No one has to understand all the intracacies of the entire game, you can compartamentalize a lot of what the assitants do and be the HC and OC. It takes less time than you might think and with your organizational and media skills very doable even if you dont get the coaches until a couple of weeks before season starts.
I for one would like to see what an ex HS coach that knows his stuff can do with the Air Raid with a group of average kids. You certainly are more qualified than most to be sitting it out, especially if you have a son playing. I can speak from last years baseball experience, nothng makes you grit your teeth more than seeing your son playing for coaches that are not solid fundamental teachers.
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Post by eickst on Apr 11, 2008 11:14:52 GMT -6
Do you ever plan on practicing defense or special teams?
It's hard enough to teach the kids Offense and Defense, but you are going to try to teach them two offenses?
If you are going to use option you had better hang your hat on it at that age group. You can't "dabble" in it.
It's one thing to have a coach intensive offense that's easy for the players to learn, but quite another when you are introducing difficulty at the player level.
As others have said. KISS
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Post by brophy on Apr 11, 2008 11:37:13 GMT -6
well,....
this is based on a 2 hour practice (11 practices), with offense comprising 30 minutes for team + 10 minutes of individual time repping the skeleton of the plays they will run in team.
The breakdown wasn't necessarily a script as it was a division of reps.
I hadn't gotten far enough to plan each 25 min end-of-practice competitions, that will be comprised of the offensive/defensive sessions (7-on-7 / goal line / competitive 1st downs / 2 min / NASCAR-INDY race / etc). These would add to the total offensive reps of 303.
Defense & ST will comprise half of practice as well.
"Warm up" is 1/4 speed offensive drills, anyway.
"Option" is nothing but speed option, with the QB the primary runner (give will be called).
Speed & Bubble are the main thrusts against C0 blitz.
I've been digging on some Tim Murphy stuff and would prefer to just hammer away at power & wedge the first days to get a groove. The same concepts carry over to the gun runs.
I don't think I challenged the kids I had last year near enough, because I kept the expectation level really low.
IF I can get 1 or 2 decent guys to help out, I'll do this (power & mesh). IF I can't, it isn't worth the effort.
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Post by davecisar on Apr 11, 2008 11:54:40 GMT -6
MAtt,
From the games you posted of last years teams. I think not having assistant coaches hurt you alot. Not sure about the challenging thing, because that team didnt run the base plays consistently very well at all like wedge and power etc. IMHO you guys tried to do too much, not too little when you added all that other stuff in. I thought you had posted here that it was one of the lessons you learned from last year, trying to do too much.
No disrespect for you or your team is intended, if it comes off that way I apologize.
That is a tough one, there is so much stuff out there. Making those choices and not being a kid in a candy store is difficult. We all would like to run 30-40-50 plays, it's fun, but in the end it usually doesnt work very well.
Runing a poor wedge play or inconsistent power play takes no time at all to put in and rep. However a tight consistent wedge that averages over 10 ypc takes a bunch of time, same for the power. For example we will have run at least 400-500 reps of the power befire our first game.
Again next to impossible to do and get lots of reps when there is just 1 coach which is really an abberation in youth football, Ive never seen a team with just 1 coach. So it's possible those same kids can do much more, but if you go on last years film, not quite ready for that yet in all honesty.
It probably makes sense to choose one or the other and put a stake in the ground. If your son is the QB you will have a 4 month head start on the Air Raid stuff. It's what you love, you've studied it and beleive in it, so a nice match.
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Post by brophy on Apr 11, 2008 14:36:34 GMT -6
Well, just some background (and maybe to make some sense of this) info.
The "program" is reknowned for the spread. The youth program has hung their hat on the DW and GAM.
Despite what comes off as blatant (air) passing bias on my part in this message board, I really don't care what we run, so long as we run it well and efficiently. Personally, however, "power" doesn't get me out of bed in the morning. That doesn't make it bad, just doesn't interest me to coach.
Well, if it was just "run DW core plays" and that's it - cool, I get it. If it were just, "run Spread" and that's it, I understand.
This successful youth program offers the two to run, with the 'foundation' being the Wyatt DW.
That is what causes my confusion. I have talked with the directors at length to find the bridge (they are good friends of mine). I admit, I am dense, so I probably don't get it.
The 'spread' is offered much like Tandem, Crunch, and Wildcat series are. A change-up - except with more of a push to utilize the roster in the passing game. Spread them out to run the 2-man game and let the QB go bananas against an empty box.
If I ever get the film of them doing this a few years ago, I'll post it. What they did out of it WORKED (when their DW wasn't going anywhere).....even though what they did out of it was very very limited (not in complexity, but in potential).
I have asked what would be "good" and what would be "bad" in this situation (is 20 spread plays too much, but 15 just right?), and they have answered with the "blank check" answer. I trust their judgment and what they have built over the last 10 years.
Like I said, if we can get 2 other guys to help out -> to divide the kids for circuits.....we'll try it
** My son, I use as a guinea pig. If HE can get it, the guys that actually play QB can get it. My son will likely be a defensive lineman or safety....he just likes to break stuff.
He couldn't catch a cold or throw a consistent pass for nothing before last year. Catching passes is his favorite thing now, and we've been toying with R4 stuff for the past week and a half.
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Post by raiderpirates on Apr 11, 2008 15:10:16 GMT -6
If the league had every D play the same, but if it simply enforces man coverage it may not limit fronts, or is everything uniform?
You have the kicking plan from this site, with 3 varieties of kickers? Special teams rules allow onsides?
Since you have to maximize instruction and reps stretch the team out by groupings as well. Then you can have communication between skills and linemen and defenders, kicking units maximized for the brief practice window you have.
Limited coaching depth means you might want to accelerate the feedback mechanism and have some times you can slot that into areas, even if it's just where those gray blocks around practice 30. Try and do that earlier, increasing response and communication can help these guys buy into team concepts. The players who show they are most coachable they become leaders in drills, etc.
As others note, the option may need more time to coach down, consider running straight up calls as series with line changes based on reading one gap and going. One change in the line call can signal which of the series backs gets it and all of them continue through like the series plays out. Basically you would 'yeah' or 'no' for one of the two series backs before getting under center, if there's a third in it you would dummy audible outside to the receiver on the line's end away from it.
Now you're running series ball instead of the option, if you do option, block the end and run the read on the man outside of that. Wider read points give time for those slower developing looks. Read out an option look off the weak side that way since people are saying it takes longer to teach. Give the QB a little bit more space to make that read with after the snap.
Half line drills with the half step protection, and the ability to use that as a negative influence to reset a passing point, could be something to help linemen reshape contact upfield or uphill and get a feel for handling some of the penetration moves pass rushers will use. Breakdowns will happen, sell these guys the ability to stay with their block assignment and help warn that passer the rush is coming. Become an extra set of eyes with calls by the protecting back or linemen on a signal to bail. Staying with a block like zone on the wide steps carries over to the protection items on half step.
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Post by brophy on Apr 11, 2008 15:29:36 GMT -6
Roster will be 25 kids
The league is anything goes, no limitations of any kind.
There is no 'stretching', just 1/4 speed individual/groups (see Air Raid).
Power (DW) translates to Dart in spread.
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lbdad
Freshmen Member
Posts: 97
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Post by lbdad on Apr 11, 2008 18:59:06 GMT -6
bropfy you and i have never met but like me you can evaluaite talent in halve a practice,at that point you know what you can teach them and what would be you best offence.dave can teach singlewing in his sleep,calende dw in his.so teach what you do best good luck
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Post by raiderpirates on Apr 11, 2008 23:01:21 GMT -6
Dual slants are an easier read to start with. Almost automatic vs. pure man for the outside player. Break the interior route earlier, cut the outside one more like an in parallel to the line facing the passer. Make that your no huddle call after any successful completion, because you can assume after a completion they'll stay in the same coverage and you can still tag/concept the front side.
Make dual slants on one side and a concept on the other automatic reads after completions. Slants every time, the concepts to change on field position(boundaries, red zone, etc.) and your team will be taking over stretches of games. The best thing is that it's an automatic rep so you'll be saving enough time for 2 or 3 extra plays a game doing this if your initial passes are working. This could even work off those shallows and crossing throws that are very high percentage.
We save no huddle calls for automatic settings, and a different one for the red zone. They are essentially cruise control or default settings that allow players to get on the same page. Dual read on one side, concepts the other, off completions. Run the slants opposite the completion side or flip the concept that way, as players develop some command and get within a comfort range of how they work together.
Doing that well should help you meet MPP and satisfy game management and distribution.
We'd often score with almost no time left in a half after an opponent had done so using this later in the year. We'd give 2 or 3 huddle calls to go on, and they'd go to the auto settings after that. That combined with one time out and we'd usually get some red zone reps out of 35-50 sec. using the back line and boundaries well.
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Post by davecisar on Apr 12, 2008 5:25:29 GMT -6
Well, just some background (and maybe to make some sense of this) info. The "program" is reknowned for the spread. The youth program has hung their hat on the DW and GAM. Despite what comes off as blatant (air) passing bias on my part in this message board, I really don't care what we run, so long as we run it well and efficiently. Personally, however, "power" doesn't get me out of bed in the morning. That doesn't make it bad, just doesn't interest me to coach. Well, if it was just "run DW core plays" and that's it - cool, I get it. If it were just, "run Spread" and that's it, I understand. This successful youth program offers the two to run, with the 'foundation' being the Wyatt DW. That is what causes my confusion. I have talked with the directors at length to find the bridge (they are good friends of mine). I admit, I am dense, so I probably don't get it. The 'spread' is offered much like Tandem, Crunch, and Wildcat series are. A change-up - except with more of a push to utilize the roster in the passing game. Spread them out to run the 2-man game and let the QB go bananas against an empty box. If I ever get the film of them doing this a few years ago, I'll post it. What they did out of it WORKED (when their DW wasn't going anywhere).....even though what they did out of it was very very limited (not in complexity, but in potential). I have asked what would be "good" and what would be "bad" in this situation (is 20 spread plays too much, but 15 just right?), and they have answered with the "blank check" answer. I trust their judgment and what they have built over the last 10 years. Like I said, if we can get 2 other guys to help out -> to divide the kids for circuits.....we'll try it ** My son, I use as a guinea pig. If HE can get it, the guys that actually play QB can get it. My son will likely be a defensive lineman or safety....he just likes to break stuff. He couldn't catch a cold or throw a consistent pass for nothing before last year. Catching passes is his favorite thing now, and we've been toying with R4 stuff for the past week and a half. Matt, As a volunteer Youth Coach you have to run what you think will work with the kids you have. Since you are doing it for free, makes sense you want to run something you know and like. I ran DW for 1 season and it worked real well, but it bored me too, I get it and can empathize. No offense to the DW guys, great system. If you honestly think this will work and the kids can do it, run it. As you and others have stated many times you dont need a great athlete to play QB in this stuff so having your son play it shouldnt be a big deal and with 4 months to work him with this stuff would be hard to pass up. Great experiment to see if a very average QB with excellent coaching can make this offense work. You said he would be a DT/S that seems like an odd pairing, but you know him and your system better than anyone. If you do post something, please post a full game. Highlights can be very misleading IMHO the full games give a clearer picture like you did last year with your own team. I didnt realize this was a 10 year old program, thought it was a feeder for the "New Evangel" which I thought was a very young school/program. |
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Post by raiderpirates on Apr 12, 2008 8:34:31 GMT -6
Is you QB tall? If he isn't, do more play action and sprints. Regardless of the call, shorter QB need you to fire the line out and establish early contact as best they can so there's enough cushion they can get a clear release and keep passing mechanics sound(Bill Walsh). Smaller passers should always have sprint outs in their arsenal as well.
That worked with us for what we planned anyways(run first team). It's my preference to use quick and play passes early so you soften the D outside and widen those edge OLB and SS. Now you're opening those running lanes off tackle and your power series is open, the first option read should be there too, and a running QB adds to all of these items, the wedge could always be a factor if your passes are completed a lot and you've built a solid power/lead series, you're staying in short yardage control so balance can best work your gains.
Once the run comes back in you can have play passes on them at your mercy. We'd run so well it set our counters, bucks, reverses from the base formation. We wanted teams playing the run so we could use their aggression against them. Finding better play pass timing for that could be the final puzzle piece there(other play caller had a bit of an issue with choosing those well, he always tried to play pass on pure passing downs so our guys was getting drilled in the pocket). I'd roll him out with a back blocking who could turn into the outlet pass or hot. They came over the line outside of him far he'd shoot under it and the QB was facing it. If he hooked the end our guy was running to daylight or reading the marker route. On early downs he'd get a chance to just air one but the route changes(lack of a route in essence) the other coach placed in the plan seriously reduced our completion percentage on wide passes. A completion to an open player under the play is better than a jump ball deep anytime but perhaps the final play. The only time I liked that was to the back markers early into the red zone or inside the six minute mark within the numbers of scores needed, so the safeties would stop charging up to help the runs, thrown where it was our guy's catch or it was out of bounds.
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lbdad
Freshmen Member
Posts: 97
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Post by lbdad on Apr 12, 2008 16:04:25 GMT -6
two years ago i was givin the "other team" never won more than fore games,the doublewing and i took them to the champinship game.i love the dw but the jet\fly sweep is what i feel my new team is best suited for and like i said in the earlyer post coach what you know.
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Post by los on Apr 12, 2008 21:15:05 GMT -6
Broph.....I actually had a football dream, while taking a nap this afternoon.....I was coaching one of my old youth teams....but instead of running the dbl. tight I.....as was my forte in life....we were running the spread.....WTF.......weird .....anyhow.....these situations kept running thru my head......we gotta have a good inside running game....we gotta be able to see and hit an uncovered reciever quickly......we should motion to trips as a rule...to see if anyone even comes with the guy, then have a couple plays to take advantage of this 3 on 2.....vertical and horizontal.....the pass blockings gonna be terrible but the opportunity to have "wide open" recievers, will be tremendous......I saw linemen pulling for ctrey...qb reading for option away....lots of plastic popping....then I woke up, lol......maybe I was thinking about JH's offense...don't know...but I had more answers with this than I ever did running the dbl. tight, when things weren't going well? Some dream....lol  |
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Post by coachdoug on Apr 13, 2008 0:47:11 GMT -6
You are not doing the kids any favors by "straddling the fence." They will be far better off to learn one system and learn it well than to dabble in two distinct and different systems and probably not do either one great. Is the board mandating that you run both DW & Air Raid? DW is very coaching intensive. I've never coached it, and I know it can be a great system - I've seen a handful of really good DW teams, but most DW teams I've come up against have struggled. It seems like the coaches thought they had discovered a "system" offense that would be easy to implement, and really didn't know what they were doing. Like most things, it takes a total commitment to be really good at DW, which is the main reason that I don't think it's such a good idea to split up time between DW & Air Raid. Is there any way they'll let you just drop DW and go exclusively Air Raid? It just seems to make the most sense to me - they'll be running Air Raid exclusively the next year in MS anyway; a half-hearted commitment to DW will likely produce mediocre results at best; the players will probably never play DW ever again. It seems to me that you should have some leverage even if the Board doesn't want to go along. It really has nothing to do with what you want to do - it's what is going to be in the kids' best interests. Consider the following: - You are a successful HS coach doing them a favor by helping out.
- All you want in return is to be able to start preparing the kids for the next level NOW.
- Besides, you want to give the kids the most benefit of your coaching ability and you know Air Raid, you don't know DW (at least not nearly as well).
I don't know - it sounds like a pretty compelling argument to me. Even if they won't give in, how are they going to dictate how much of each offense you run? Are they going to monitor your practices and force you to spend more time on DW? I doubt it. I assume the kids probably already have a decent background in DW since it sounds like they've had no choice but to run DW every year they've been in this program until now. That being the case, I would probably skew your practice much more heavily towards Air Raid- like maybe 75% Air Raid, 25% DW. Hell, once you have some success running Air Raid, they're probably not going to care. Truth is, that's really kind of a chicken-s@&* compromise. Stick to your guns and get them to agree to let you go 100% Air Raid from day 1. I really think it is in the kids' best interest, which should be everyone's #1 concern anyway. One last thing - start recruiting assistant coaches and get them organized NOW. This is one of the most underrated parts of being a successful youth coach. Bad assistants and/or bad management of your assistants can sink you before you get started. It never ceases to amaze me how many fathers with no coaching experience think they know more than guys that have been doing it for years. Former college or pro players are often the worst (because they "know" that they know better than the head coach, and constantly undermine him to make their point). Get your guys together and drill into them that your staff is not a democracy, that they will run your system and coach what you tell them to coach or they can watch from the stands. Obviously, you need to be diplomatic, but it's better to have the entire coaching staff together with a second rate scheme than to have a divided staff with the best scheme. Make sure they know that you are the law and that they know their roles clearly. If you can do that with your staff, it will make a huge difference. Just my 2 cents - feel free to take it for what it's worth. |
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Post by raiderpirates on Apr 13, 2008 6:28:26 GMT -6
The wedge is good as a starter for getting people to toughen up and use fundamental downhill blocking. That will help form the basis of you OL's identity so you can spread out and still be physical. Nice approach.
Few people in my league value screen passes, I preached their importance and was proven correct when we lost a scrimmage off a Piedmont kickscreen on scrimmage day. We ended up spending twice as much time practicing that out as I initially wanted when we could of had it sealed and taken care of. Ignore it, then commit beyond reason.
Add a good screen to that early, just past your verts stage. You are running balanced 2x2 or trips? Using some good horizontal passing could probably accelerate your development even more, read the verts cushion and then a screen to compliment as another part of uncovered, now go with your concepts and tags on mesh, etc.
If you're going to commit true spread action it would seem more reps for form variation would help also. Those items play back to the jet.
Spread that spread out some more, at first you have to play to protection, understood..
Are you going splitback on the shotgun, and this is coming back to wing concepts?
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Post by los on Apr 13, 2008 8:18:12 GMT -6
I agree raider...the wedge is a great start.....counter trey/power.....with a read for QB keep?.....I kinda like the "idea" of incorporating the best of both systems....hey....nobody says you can't run the basic dbl.wing/spread stuff......out of say.....the dbl. tight gun.....might have to break a commandment or two......in their respective bibles....while tweaking some "kid friendly" basic plays?.....but......its like this to me....."if you don't have 6-8 guys that just love to block and knock some kid's butt on the ground every play.....and can do this vs every team you play......you "best" be able to spread the field.....or you'll be in for a lot of 3 and outs, if you live in a tight power formation"...  |
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Post by coachdoug on Apr 13, 2008 9:31:18 GMT -6
Few people in my league value screen passes, I preached their importance and was proven correct when we lost a scrimmage off a Piedmont kickscreen on scrimmage day. We ended up spending twice as much time practicing that out as I initially wanted when we could of had it sealed and taken care of. Ignore it, then commit beyond reason. Add a good screen to that early, just past your verts stage. You are running balanced 2x2 or trips? Using some good horizontal passing could probably accelerate your development even more, read the verts cushion and then a screen to compliment as another part of uncovered, now go with your concepts and tags on mesh, etc. I agree with you that screens are great plays and often undervalued by youth coaches. I have never heard of the "Piedmont Kickscreen" before, though. Could you describe it for me? Thanks. |
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Post by morris on Apr 13, 2008 17:43:39 GMT -6
What LOS is suggested is how I would approach it.I think that is very workable. Mesh out of that formation is tough. He also get a nice downhill runing game.
I know most DW guys would call me crazy but I think you can adapt a good deal of what they do into more "modern" looking concepts. If you did that then DW guys will say your not running the DW. You get into this thing were your giving up some things to gain something.
I wish I could mess around with the ideas I have about it. It just is not going to happen or happen much
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Post by raiderpirates on Apr 13, 2008 20:21:09 GMT -6
I agree with you that screens are great plays and often undervalued by youth coaches. I have never heard of the "Piedmont Kickscreen" before, though. Could you describe it for me? Thanks.coachdoug
They split the T out past the hasmarks, with a split outside of each and a slot somewhere in combo. Run kickscreens/bubbles. The pass went upfield though, past the LOS, it was illegal downfield, they basically ran the biggest kid in the league at a DB and hooked off it. It was a bubble concept that got run downfield. A player missed the tackle about 18 yards downfield and they broke it.
Only had time for one play, I wanted 2 S at the 50 and he didn't, the shotgun screen is what it essentially was. They also did a swinging gate(as did another team). It never worked vs. us when we finally implemented what I wanted on it. Walking out good LB who jumped the pass. No need to line some up over an OL so we had a force corner and a walked LB with a S triangles at ten yards off the line.
Think we scored like four TD or more off that look when teams tried it. My ILB and FS were our best players outside of the weakside DE and they'd pick the pass off by jumping the step or kickscreen/bubble. Teams didn't have time to run anything else, with no T on the pocket our DE were getting free shots at the QB and one was too tall to throw that over so we could bring the LB to his side back some if need be.
So it lost a scrimmage and won us three games and scored in another. The rulebook wasn't my worry in preseason against them but they had pretty strict code on the OL stances(all five had to be in stance). Plus they had to bring that player back to the LOS or the WR or both.
It was fun to see them have put that much effort in it, it gave my players something to deal with that was entirely new. Had to apply basketball zone press concepts to it for them to get and understanding of the pass lane denial that was needed. If the OLB jumps the quick it's six, and the DE get that QB off a shotgun before anything else can work, there isn't time to game it otherwise because we can rotate the S if they try running dual routes or something deep, the force corner closes if they bubble out instead of in.
It's designed more for a two man coverage with one offset(buble in/out), or two or three up on the LOS tight(trips mesh). With that look out they had to try leading the QB, finding the RB on angle or wing checks and those looks were keys, a wing, qb, rb was letting us add a LB back to the box and a solo wing or solo RB could be keyed five down(three of them fast enough to play other positions like LB, S or anywhere else). Our nose was terror on snaps, had that team's C not been from my former team he'd probably never get the snap right, many teams abandoned the gun vs. us because we attacked the snapper and rushed so well they had to max protect.
Surround the wide groupings like a triangle, walk out the ILB and keep a S over them. Avoid the big OL there's no pass angle to hit the target if you time the route jump. We made it automatic it was like a back door cut and the hoops terminology helped even more to enable our guys ways of playing with command of the concept.
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Post by los on Apr 13, 2008 20:59:43 GMT -6
Right morris......maybe have just 2 basic formations.....one tight... one spread....(both shotgun)....maybe just one motion to trips or for a jet sweep?.....try to run the same basic 2/3 run plays.....2/3 passing concepts with each and become very proficient at these....if the kids are smart enough to learn more.....all the better.....thats the "fun" in coaching youth ball.....you get to be somewhat creative, in the things you do....without the fear of getting fired or something......I mean...as long as they learn the important basics, have some fun, learn to like the contact, learn to work with others for a common goal....who cares what the scheme is......odds are... they'll forget most of it anyway?
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Post by morris on Apr 14, 2008 5:26:05 GMT -6
I know counter criss cross out of a gun is extremely tough deal with at lower levels. Run it off of stryker sweep look. I think Wyatt has some tight double slot stuff too.
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CoachJ
Junior Member
Posts: 307
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Post by CoachJ on Apr 14, 2008 7:35:29 GMT -6
Brophy,
Do what you want to do.
Life's too short to worry about what CAN'T be done. If you think you can honestly make it work than give it a shot. If you think that by doing 2 systems you will cheat your kids in some form, than choose one or the other. I believe kids can pick up more than a few a plays, but many others disagree. I guess it all comes down to what you believe you can do and what you think is best involved for the kids. It is all part of being the HC.
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Post by brophy on Apr 14, 2008 7:53:38 GMT -6
Thank you for all the feedback.
We may end up just doing Power,Wedge, Trap, and lead.....and that's it. It's always easy being industrious in pre-season.
One idea I did have (over the weekend) was;
EVERY practice "starts" with
pre-practice;
Linemen- punches and 1-on-1s
backs & receivers - 1/4 catches
QBs - warmup throws
"Warmup" (12 min)
Backs / Receivers --- run a circuit of "Settle & Noose", speed ladder, and "stutter sticks"
Linemen --- Flipper punches (drive & combos), speed ladder, and upper body speed ladder.
Offensive Group (10 min)
Linemen --- Stance,Start, Get off, Power & Wedge shell
Backs --- Stance, Start, Alignment, Handoffs, & Footwork of Power & Wedge
Offensive Team (30 min)
Wedge & Power 40 reps
Special Teams (12 min)
Defensive Circuit (8 min)
--form tackling, fumble recovery, strip drill, leverage drill
Team Defense (20 min)
alignment, get-off, formation adjustments........team pursuit drill with 2 groups
Team Competition (25 min)
Backs & Receivers = 7-on-7 (air raid install verticals & mesh) (w/ 2-3 QBs + 2-3 Coaches throwing)
Linemen = "lover's lane" pass rush & pass pro 1-on-1s
** Mesh & Shallow from under center scare me because of driving away from the LOS (5 step throw would now turn into 3 step because of the truncated formation?) and the sloppiness of the read with everyone in a pile in the middle of the field.....let alone trying to correctly protect it.
The shotgun snap doesn't scare me, and preparing for 6+ man rush is what we'll be doing on day one.
The main thing is;
1) We are "allowed" to run air raid
2) If we DO it, I don't want to do it poorly
3) To not do it poorly, we can't just throw some plays out there and hope it works
I wouldn't think about doing this if
1) the kids don't like throwing
2) the kids don't like catching
3) It doesn't work
Unfortunately, 1-3 aren't usually true.
Like I said, probably will just do the DW core plays and that's it. I'm not trying to push anything here, and I like the DW out of gun (eliminate some of the footwork out of it). I think with that, there may a challenge of maintaining the 'downhill' demeanor if you are waiting on a gun snap, but those are details that can be worked out.
I'm not pushing the spread (no, seriously), but it IS available in our 'arsenal'. So, if we ARE going to do, then hey, lets do it half way decently.
And, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one confused on the merger of these two styles of play. The main thrust of going 'spread" is to run with less people in the box.
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