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Post by coachdbs on Sept 10, 2007 9:59:51 GMT -6
Had to run this by the youth coaches. I coach HS football at the varsity level so trading and watching film is practiced and we spend more hours watching film than is probably neccessary. However, I was extremely suprised and a little frustrated with the fact that there might have been someone filming my 7-year olds football game this past saturday. I was not able to attend the game but my wife informed me that there was someone sitting underneath a tree filming the game. It did not appear that he had any affiliation with either team. I have heard that this goes on at the youth level but 7-year olds....come on? I could care less how many games my son wins...I just want him to learn how to play good fundamental football which is why I help out when I can. Does this go on in your leagues and at what age? What is the philosophy of youth coaches (and I mean the little guys )regarding film?
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Post by davecisar on Sept 10, 2007 20:20:23 GMT -6
Ive not seen it much with the exception of Select teams age 11-12 and 13-14. Have had more than a few coaches watch and seen a few film my kids age 8-10 teams but maybe its because we run that Single Wing offense, much different than what anyone else runs. Not commonplace.
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Post by eickst on Sept 10, 2007 20:26:27 GMT -6
Could have been me under that tree over the weekend. What city was this?
I film upcoming opponents whenever possible. It's too hard to coach a defense to stop everything and much easier to just coach them to stop the plays that are coming up in the next game.
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Post by brophy on Sept 10, 2007 21:13:40 GMT -6
tons of people do it down here.
However, You can usually figure out what you can & cannot run just based on the physical attributes of your opponents. Because you will only see one defense (or some crazy bastardization of another) and a handful of plays.
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Post by mustang62 on Sept 10, 2007 22:28:20 GMT -6
I coach 11-13 year olds, and if we didn't scout our opponents we will have our butts handed to us on Saturdays. Scouting is accepted and if your not, someone is going to ask "what is wrong with you?" Most games my video person is sitting next or near my next opponent.
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Post by coachdbs on Sept 11, 2007 12:15:51 GMT -6
I can see filming if you are coaching the bigger kids (11-13 year olds) but I struggle with your philosophy if it is happening with your 7,8 year old team. It is one thing to stop by and watch your upcoming opponents game but I question your priorities if you are filming them and spending most of your practice time game planning for your next opponent. We get way too many kids that have played on successful youth teams only to find that they don't have a clue about good technique. If you are able to do both, then more power to you but if winning is more important then making them better...you are doing your kids a disservice.
On a positive note, I have seen some excellent youth coaches and many of you don't get nearly the credit you deserve. I can tell you that we are thankful to those of you who do things the right way!!! Keep up the great work!!!!
Almost forgot...for the coach who asked...we live in Centennial, CO.
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Post by fffofficer on Sept 11, 2007 13:01:25 GMT -6
I coach 10-11 year olds in NJ and in our league it is strictly prohibited. You can scout a game in person but cannot film it, nor anyone associated with the team. Don't like it, but that is what we have to deal with. You can film your own game, but cannot exchange with any other teams coach.
I have used our tapes from the year before as a starting point, then we will scout our up coming opponents with the our staff as the games come up if possible.
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Post by estore2 on Sept 12, 2007 14:13:22 GMT -6
no need to film just need to know what defensive front what kind of offense they run and who their studs are and the position they play so scouting a quater or half is enough for me but there are coaches in maryland that do film in my book its a waste of time
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Post by nmmvikings on Sept 13, 2007 13:21:40 GMT -6
It happens all over up here in the northeast, we are in a very competitive league and we need every advantage we can get.
As mustang said, if you didn't do it people would ask "Why not"? I would have to agree though, I think filming 7 yr olds is a bit overboard. Maybe the person was just a relative or a friend of one of the teams, one can only hope.
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Post by coachjim on Sept 15, 2007 5:08:00 GMT -6
I'm in the Northeast and it is prohibited in our league as well. In addtion, the league has the parents sign waivers in the beginning of the season on whether or not the child can be photographed. When they are that young there are other factors to consider when photographs or video tape is present.
Personally, while that kind of information might be helpful to win, I wouldn't even consider it. At the 8-10 year old age level and considering how my kids have reacted to the Patriots incident, I can tell you how THEY would percieve it. They would say it is cheating, they already have. With integrity as our mission statement, we don't sacrifice that for anything. If they even percieve it as cheating, which includes holding, its not the type of program we run. And never will, win or lose, at that age group.
But that's just me. Beat me with your talent, your experience, or your system, no problem. Beat me by scouting out my nine year olds, and after the game i'll tell them they won. Because regardless of the outcome, they have. That's the message we send and I hope at least a few of the other youth coaches out there see the difference. Its all about their perception, not ours. Next practice, ask one of your nine year olds what he thinks about it. It's his answer that really counts; his perception that matters.
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Post by jazzo on Sept 16, 2007 1:01:21 GMT -6
I coach up here in the Northwest and as far as I know I'm the only one scouting in our league. I coach the Defense for Jr. Midgets (10-13) and it has a huge advantage on preparing for the upcoming opponent. I film the upcoming opponents as much as possible and then watch it back at home (sometimes with the asst. coaches) when I have time. It's critical so you know how to line up your Defense, especially when seeing a unorthodox offense (Single Wing, Sling Shot, etc...). Before coaching in the league this year, I read the rulebook to make sure scouting by filming was permitted. In Pop Warner nationally it is permitted during games, but you can't film opponents practices. The main things I look for on film and work on during the practice week are:
1) What formation is the opponent running on Offense? Then I line our scout offense up exactly like it during our Defensive practice.
2) Who are the opponents studs on offense? What are their numbers, 25, 21, 81? Kids always seem to remember jersey numbers more than anything in football, lol. Is the RB a power or speed runner? Can the QB scramble or does he just stay in the pocket? Etc....
3) What kind of "O" line splits does the opponent use? Our last opponent used 8-12 inch splits and we just murdered them by shooting the gaps.
4) What are their bread 'n' butter plays? For example, tomorrow we have to focus on the blast off tackle with a TE "nasty"split, crack back sweep, and play action off the blast play.
Then we go over defending those plays over and over until it sticks with the kids.
5) Any other trick plays they might use during the game: half back pass, reverse pass, etc...
That's just the basic idea of what I do after film scouting. I would recommend to film from as high up as possible with the least distractions. Also go in normal attire; don't go decked out in your teams attire, lol. I try to stay low profile and as unnoticed as possible.
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Post by coachjim on Sept 21, 2007 8:30:52 GMT -6
It's super smart and tempting, even seemingly excusable on the coaching up vs. cheating tact... But... still... knowing my kid is/could be being filmed at that age by a stranger (with the propensity, at least to do our team record harm and be stealthy) will having me scanning for them at this weeks practice. S'pose that's the reasoning behind the league's thinking. I can see how your team would beat us handedly with your film breakdown and analysis. It's well done. My team could use a win... hrmmmm. Ya know.. i'll add it in right after the NE hand-signls conversation, the timing couldn't be better  , but after Vick and not before Benoit. Gonna be a long night of life's lessons tonight... ... and coding hand signals. *chuckle* It's always been done and always will. I just coach, nothing too fancy. Good thread/points. |
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Post by brophy on Sept 21, 2007 13:10:58 GMT -6
those that DO film opponents, how many of you show your kids the film?
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Post by coach79 on Sept 22, 2007 12:33:18 GMT -6
I scout our future opponents and it works. Yea "IT'S A YOUTH GAME!!!!" but still the kids want to win just as much as a coach. Scouting (video or "a frickin' note pad") it's all part of the game.
The only kids on my team that see the film are the coaches son and his friends. Kinda Cliche' but he is the Starting QB for our Pro-Set and starting H for our Base-Set. On defense he is startin RILB, we run a 4-4 w/ a 6-2 look, this week he is starting at DE.
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Post by coachdbs on Sept 22, 2007 14:17:04 GMT -6
Just an update...my son's team (age 7) was filmed again this week and this time they had no qualms about being seen. They set up camera and tripod behind the endzone. Again, I am a HS school coach and understand the importance of scouting at the appropriate level, but at age 7!? I turned around during pregame and just shook my head. I truly hope he is putting just as much effort into teaching fundamentals and technique...if not...he is screwing those boys over...just glad he is not coaching my kid. My son's team had it handed to them by that same team early last year and then beat them in their little super bowl at the end of the year. I believe that happened because we never changed anything...we just kept working the little things and kept getting better ever week. If you teach things like staying low, getting off the ball, good angles, how to tackle (this does not mean the circle drill (which by the way should be added to the bull-in-the-ring list) or Oklahoma's from 15 yards apart), how to go on 2, keying the ball on defense, ball security, and going hard until the whistle blows...good things will happen and the kids will get better. Heck...the team we played today had their DLine stunting, O was passing, reverses...funny thing is our team beat them 40 something to 20 something. They had been beating teams by 50+ a game. Anyway...apologize for the long winded rant, I am just struggling with how some of these guys are coaching up their kids. Again, I know there are a lot of you that frequent this board and do right by the kids...so no offense intended....but just remember filming and scouting your opponents (especially young kids)is not going to make your kids better football players....teaching them how to play the game and be a good person is the greatest contribution we can make! The rest will take care of itself!
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Post by mahonz on Sept 22, 2007 16:06:38 GMT -6
Coach
Is this the same "coachld" associated with the Mile Hi Grizzlies? If so cool...this forum is where I learn about all those crazy Titans offenses.
...I agree scouting 7 year olds is pretty silly. I am coaching 7th graders and we do scout.
Coach Mike
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Post by coachjim on Sept 23, 2007 6:17:10 GMT -6
Good point about coaching them up. Now that you bring it up, being Reactive to one individual team's schemes each week might seem like prep but also seems like it might take away from root fundamental teaching time too. What happens when a competitor one week cannot be filmed or the film is wrong? Does your team fall apart at the seams? I also think its funny that scouters have their own, "honor among thieves," no offense, its just an old saying, and "only let one kid see it," or film but "not signals." That's a classic. Its like being in a street fight and one guy yells, "no biting or hitting in the face!" Please don't take my litle jibes personally, just having fun watching the debate argument for filming 6-9 year olds... to pathetically use two more similes: It's like that Phillip Morris VP, arguing/testifying in the Supreme Court that cigs are non-addictive! Or like Bush's not inhaling excuse.... great stuff guys! Keep em coming!  |
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Post by los on Sept 23, 2007 19:28:40 GMT -6
Some of our parents would film our games, then make us a copy for self scouting which was nice. But in our league, it didn't do a lot of good to scout the other guys (except just to find out who the best players were) cause they might run something totally different each time you played them? We had one team we played 3 times one year, 1st game they were power-T, 2nd game they spread it out a bit, ran more sweeps and misdirection, 3rd time they were spread dbls and threw the ball all over the place? We just tried to do what "we did", as good as we could do it and to heck with worrying about the other guys, as I was definitely "not" smart enough to cover all the "what ifs" without causing mass confusion on my own team, lol! Sure, you can make little adjustments during the game, and thats usually enough for youth ball.
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Post by coach79 on Sept 25, 2007 4:38:41 GMT -6
What happens when a competitor one week cannot be filmed or the film is wrong? Does your team fall apart at the seams? This is why we have our BASE defense and we make adjustments if the tape is wrong. A well coached team will not fall apart at the seams they just go back to their BASE defense.I also think its funny that scouters have their own, "honor among thieves," no offense, its just an old saying, and "only let one kid see it," or film but "not signals." I am so glad that our passion is able to get a laugh out of you. It's not my decision that the kids see it, if it was up to me they wouldn't.That's a classic. Its like being in a street fight and one guy yells, "no biting or hitting in the face!" Please don't take my litle jibes personally, just having fun watching the debate argument for filming 6-9 year olds... to pathetically use two more similes: What makes coaching 6-9 (9-12 in my case) so different from coaching JH, HS, COL, or even NFL? More talent and more complex schemes? Football is football anyway you look at it. Once again glad we could make you chuckle.  
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Post by coachjim on Sept 26, 2007 5:54:13 GMT -6
Heh. I'm no moral high grounder... don't get me wrong... my offense is all misdirection plays. Also, in our league, we only face each opponent once before the playoffs. Scouting wouldn't do much and no one is so into it that they would miss their kids game to watch someone else's in another town. Although I still ould't do it at his age group, I have to dmire the coahes with programs that have the time, where-wit-all, resoures, and desire to win at ll osts for Their kids, which is what it is all about (if you are a good coach.) So even though I chuckle... you don't see me laughing. I admire and fear that "desire to win," just trying to do it in our own way. Consider it a nerous chuckle. I have a feeling you guys have very well run programs and am glad its illegl in our league. I'm glad I don't have to worry about it. (but now change my signals, regardless  ... ya never know. This thread was something that everyone needs to read and learn from; very informative. Thanks. *no chuckle* |
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Post by coachjim on Sept 26, 2007 6:22:19 GMT -6
Ugh, before I get slammed for saying "I'm no moral high grounder... don't get me wrong... my offense is all misdirection plays." I should clarify that i'm not knockin misdirection. To me, there is a difference between direct and indirrect attack. As in Chess, their are "manly" fighters for the center and flank attackers, that previously we're thought to be... well... p's. Times have changed, its a smart guys game now, with smarter coaches doing all sorts of new things, for the worlds oldest, favorite pastime... winning. Just had to add that. My point was that the unconventional isn't always accepted (I run WT all the other coaches run I) but often necessary. And usually better, depite the status quo.
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Post by dlsmith99320 on Dec 3, 2007 10:54:12 GMT -6
Well this last season I coached 8 and 9 year olds that never played football before. The only games I filmed were our own to try to see what and where we were going and what we did wrong and what we did right for my own assessment nothing I showed the kids as for them as soon as the game was over it was pizza and xbox over at their Friends house... It is really all about the kids and teaching them football. At the higher levels I expect scouting is important to stay competitive otherwise why keep score? But in the B and A level of our program I will probably still watch our films with the kids this time so they can see what they are doing and not doing to try to get a bigger grasp on the game. I don't have time to run around and film all the other teams, sure we practice 3 times a week and next season will be the second year of our program so I will have to see where my kids head is at.
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Post by rebelcoach on Dec 5, 2007 23:30:19 GMT -6
I coach 10 - 11 year olds. Our rules stipulate that scouting is allowed in game situations only. We are scouted at every single game and sometimes by multiple teams. I film our opponents or send a parent when the schedule prohibits my getting there. We scout to get info on personnel, fronts plays etc. We watch film as a coaching staff 1 night a week and develop a game plan, what we need to coach up for the week, where we see mismatches for and against us etc. and how we will take advantage of our shore up those missmatches. In my opinion it would be a disservice to the kids not to scout and prepare for our opponents given our rules. If it were illegal I clearly would not do it, but that would level the playing field so I would'nt need to.
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Post by wingt74 on Dec 6, 2007 21:11:32 GMT -6
I coach 8th grade. I scout the other team in warmups.
It's more important to know who their studs are then the plays they run. 99% of the time, just watch the other team in warmups and you will see who is getting the ball.
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Post by ampipebulldog on Dec 10, 2007 14:43:55 GMT -6
We have 250 kids in one division alone (9-10 year olds) here in Texas. 12 teams. You would not believe how competitive it is. What is done at the varsity level is done at the Pee Wee level. That includes scouting and filming.
This league weeds out the hobby guys pretty quickly. Not a proponent of the way it is, but that IS the way it is.
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Post by davecisar on Dec 11, 2007 8:20:06 GMT -6
Ive had team in league that had 40-50 on one team and over 1000 kids in an age group.
This season I think it was over 500 kids in the age group. The best teams are often filmed and scouted here, but certainly not all the teams.
We run a series based offense, if we see this we do that as well as a nice game day scouting system that shows us where adjustments need to be made very quickly. Ive also run the same offense for the last 8 seasons, so pretty easy to troubleshoot. A Handfull of plays with multiple actions and set practiced adjustments to most everything we usually see to combat out offense.
Weve done very well here and won outstate tourneys etc, so probably pretty competitive here as well. Im just not going to scout and film every team we play in youth football anyways, maybe the one team that looks like we are going to play in the Super Bowl, but not anyone else. We are fairly good at adjusting to what we see and are almost always going to work cetain plays and series vs the various defenses out there.
Part of the benefit of running the same system for 8 seasons and keeping it simple IMHO.
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Post by jericho on Dec 19, 2007 15:04:32 GMT -6
Coachld, with all due respect, you sound like a whiner.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 20, 2007 19:49:57 GMT -6
I have to agree with coachld here. I think the mindset of filming kids at this level probably leads to to lots of gameplanning and less teaching.
Just my opinion, but if you can get your kid to get off blocks, or hold their blocks...you have done your job at these levels. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I would bet that those who film their opponents, are more interested in having the "coaches win" (because of brilliant game planning) rather than having the players win (because they execute the fundamentals)
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Post by davecisar on Dec 21, 2007 4:56:33 GMT -6
If players execute great fundamentals, wouldnt that also be a function of coaching priorities and good fundamentals transfer of knowledge/teaching by the coaches? The kids dont learn that stuff from from mom/dad/tv/video games etc.
I see teams every year that are great fundamentally ( same teams same coachss every year we know will be great blocking and tackling teams and wont beat themselves) and I see others that are just horrible, including some posted on the net etc Many of those teams we can depend on being poor fundamentally and unsound every year.
Some of my competitors film, I dont, BTW.
I watch over 200 different youth teams either live or by DVD every year and they vary wildly on fundamental soundness of both techinique and scheme.
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Post by Coach Huey on Dec 21, 2007 12:11:20 GMT -6
Seriously? Where do we begin. If it wasn't different than you or I would easily blend right in with the coaches at the NFL level. Football IS different throughout the levels.
Just like "math is math - anyway you look at it".
Unfortunately, there is a difference, guys. I would really like to believe it's the same -- this make me think I could coach at the NFL level. But, sadly, I would struggle.
Now, for the "arguement" of film or don't film. Why is this an arguement? I mean, if Coach A wants to film his opponent and do whatever with it - go right ahead. For those that are 'against' it ... sounds to me like a "You problem.".
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, but after Vick and not before Benoit. Gonna be a long night of life's lessons tonight... 
... ya never know. This thread was something that everyone needs to read and learn from; very informative. Thanks. *no chuckle*
