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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 21, 2007 19:33:09 GMT -6
If players execute great fundamentals, wouldnt that also be a function of coaching priorities and good fundamentals transfer of knowledge/teaching by the coaches? The kids dont learn that stuff from from mom/dad/tv/video games etc. Not sure if that was directed at my post. If so, then I didn't do a good job getting my point across. I agree 100% that great coaching results in the great fundamentals..and that teams that exhibit these and win are doing so as a result of the coach. I guess I was trying to convey that in my experience, some coaches think that success comes from them calling the right plays, or scheming the "super duper can't stop us system", while others (the ones that are right) think that success comes from them getting their kids to block and tackle better.
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Post by davecisar on Dec 22, 2007 8:03:43 GMT -6
While I would certainly agree that blocking and tackling the best will often win you games at any level, scheme is very important as well as play sequencing. I would have to respectfully disagree as a youth coach who has watched 1000s of youth games. Last night I watched DVDs of a youth team from Florida, that was ent to me my mail. This was a Junior Pee Wee team that finished one snap from probably winning the Pop Warner National Championship in Disney. They played 15 games finishing 14-1 and in at least 8 of the games they had far less talent than their opposition and in at least 2 of the games they even blocked and tackled poorer than their opposition. They beat perennial powers from Miami at Miami that had far better talent and speed etc. But so many of the teams they played were in schemes that made no sense for the talent levels in place and the play calling in some of the games was down right silly. One team that my friends team beat by 34 points ran a type of offense that the kids had no business running and got just one first down, and this team had a boat load of talent, it was just silly. My friends team should have been beat a number of times by better teams but werent, and won at least 2 games using some nifty clock management etc. and spot on play calling. This team came from an org that NEVER has made the playoffs, let alone made an incredible Disney run. All first year coaches, didnt pay any attention to what the old guard ( lost all the time) said about thier new fangled offense or very different practice methodology etc ( told them it wouldnt work, were messing the kids up). They took a group of kids that had never won anything in this league and made them into a National contender. I usually cringe at watching youth football DVDs sent to me in the mail, or even the ones posted on the net, they make me sick seeing the poor execution and manifistations of poor coaching. But this was amazing to watch, I rarely ever watch past the first game, here I watched all 15 games. Had this team run a traditional offense they would have been run off the field by at least 4-5 teams and the clock management/play sequencing won them at least another 2. At the local YMCA with dad coaches. blocking and tackling alone may be the answer but when you play against good teams, well coached teams that can execute, it takes scheme and then some to win. Thats why we love going to out state or national tournaments or playing good/great teams from outside the area. Of course I was even more proud because they were running my stuff right out of the box LOL.
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Post by Coach Huey on Dec 22, 2007 10:27:31 GMT -6
While I would certainly agree that blocking and tackling the best will often win you games at any level, scheme is very important as well as play sequencing. I would have to respectfully disagree as a youth coach who has watched 1000s of youth games. Last night I watched DVDs of a youth team from Florida, that was ent to me my mail. This was a Junior Pee Wee team that finished one snap from probably winning the Pop Warner National Championship in Disney. They played 15 games finishing 14-1 and in at least 8 of the games they had far less talent than their opposition and in at least 2 of the games they even blocked and tackled poorer than their opposition. They beat perennial powers from Miami at Miami that had far better talent and speed etc. But so many of the teams they played were in schemes that made no sense for the talent levels in place and the play calling in some of the games was down right silly. One team that my friends team beat by 34 points ran a type of offense that the kids had no business running and got just one first down, and this team had a boat load of talent, it was just silly. My friends team should have been beat a number of times by better teams but werent, and won at least 2 games using some nifty clock management etc. and spot on play calling. This team came from an org that NEVER has made the playoffs, let alone made an incredible Disney run. All first year coaches, didnt pay any attention to what the old guard ( lost all the time) said about thier new fangled offense or very different practice methodology etc ( told them it wouldnt work, were messing the kids up). They took a group of kids that had never won anything in this league and made them into a National contender. I usually cringe at watching youth football DVDs sent to me in the mail, or even the ones posted on the net, they make me sick seeing the poor execution and manifistations of poor coaching. But this was amazing to watch, I rarely ever watch past the first game, here I watched all 15 games. Had this team run a traditional offense they would have been run off the field by at least 4-5 teams and the clock management/play sequencing won them at least another 2. At the local YMCA with dad coaches. blocking and tackling alone may be the answer but when you play against good teams, well coached teams that can execute, it takes scheme and then some to win. Thats why we love going to out state or national tournaments or playing good/great teams from outside the area. Of course I was even more proud because they were running my stuff right out of the box LOL. all this to say what... sometimes, i get lost in the words and can't see the point? is it filming overrated? coaching schemes overrated? fundamentals underrated? your stuff is what should be run??
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Post by davecisar on Dec 22, 2007 10:39:39 GMT -6
The previous post said I was responding to said that some coaches think that success comes from great blocking and great tackling, while others feel its schemes and playcalling. My thoughts and experiences per the post was that at all levels blocking and tackling are important, as posted low level YMCA daddy coached leagues are all about blocking and tackling. But when you get to the better coached leagues and playing some of the best youth teams out there. scheme and playcalling matter, especially if you are "out athleted". Sure I was proud one of "my teams" did so well LOL. The body of the post illustrated a real life example that played itself out just a few short weeks ago. Filming as Ive stated is a great tool, have no problem with it. I just dont have the time to do it and feel we have a pretty good methodology to figure out what to do on the fly and have all our adjustments named, tagged and practiced for most everything we should see. Schemes arent overrated, so many youth teams are not in schemes that make sense for the types of kids, competition, practice time and rules they have to abide by. Fundamentals are never underated. For this team and the 4 factors one should consider when figuring our what way to go, my system was a great fit for them anyways.
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Post by brophy on Dec 22, 2007 16:25:57 GMT -6
got it
So in summation.....
Tthe team that blocks and tackles the best will win. When both teams are equal in technique and athleticism, then the team with the better play calling will win.
Now in regards to "filming", it is a great tool for any team. Where this thread has gone sour was making the ASSUMPTION that film is taking place at the expense of something else (fundamentals, scheme, etc).
Secondly, what is the "film" used for? For the coaches to scheme? For the coaches to drill down what they will use in a game?
To show players their opponent during practice? Or to take home at their leisure?
In the best case scenario, film is awesome. In the worst case scenario, film is horrible.
defining the true 'problem' here is what is at issue. If your opponent filmed your practice, would you have a problem with it?
Like Dave said, especially for youth ball, filming practices would cost (resources,time) more than it would be of any value.
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Post by k on Jan 2, 2008 22:20:57 GMT -6
I'm coaching Freshman and JV. I have no problem with the JV games because they almost always run the same basic offense but I've taken my freshman to play spread teams to find their freshman playing tackle over double wing to one side for example... If it wasn't taboo to film freshman games I'd have them filmed because I think it would be more fun for the kids to be able to prepare for what they are going to see.
The kids get frustrated trying to adapt to something they've never seen before on the spot.
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Post by ghscoach on Jan 4, 2008 5:32:18 GMT -6
Why is it taboo to film the Freshman games?
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Post by k on Jan 5, 2008 16:00:05 GMT -6
Why is it taboo to film the Freshman games? It just is in our league... =(
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trojan
Junior Member
[F4:wingtcoach.com] [F4:wingtcoachdon]
Posts: 494
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Post by trojan on Jan 5, 2008 16:41:18 GMT -6
All in all, it's just a game.
And if you feel that way, please start some happy little intramural flag football program in the fall in your community.
If one of your goals in coaching is not to do your best to win, then go assist the intramural football guy.
I love my kids and they know it. I stress the basics and then some. They are respected, and part of my respect for them is preparing them to win. If that didn't matter, then I could nurture them in an after school X Box club.
I guess it boils down to when football matters to you. Just varsity, or what? Up to you. My signature gives you my answer.
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Post by coachtabales on Jan 8, 2008 9:35:00 GMT -6
I have read some very interesting points, and though most of it is good (while some of it is crap); I think the point is being lost. If I am not mistaken, the original question was “What is the philosophy of youth coaches (and I mean the little guys) regarding film?” I have coached kids from ages 6 through 14, and I have seen coaches film them at all levels. It is far more common to see with the older kids. It is practically guaranteed when you talk about select teams. Myself, I find that at the age of 7 (the age that was asked about) it is a complete waste of time and it benefits the kids like not at all. It is the same reason that we make sure to practice on the Friday before the game (even if it is just a walk through) instead of taking that day off. Because they will most likely forget what was practiced earlier in the week. Again, I am talking about the really young kids. I do not film any team, ever, in any age group. I do however, go with the old “Pencil-n-Paper” approach for the teams ages 10 and up, and that is maybe 20% of the time. I coach in Pop Warner, and I see it in all the age groups, but more so in the older groups. I have seen coaches/parents up on top of ladders filming all the way down the line. It is disturbing sometimes what some people will do to get footage. For the record, I win more than I lose (barely), and I cannot say that I would win more or less with or without film with any degree of certainty for any age group. Nevertheless, I do know that a few years ago I followed up on a team that I coached from the age of 6 until most of them were 14. Of the 21 kids that I coached that last year (13 of them from the original 6-year-old team), 20 of them went on to play ball in high school, 10 of them went on to play ball in college in various levels (no division I starters), 15 of them graduated from college (9 of the football players did) 4 of them joined the military. The other 2 have moved away and I was not able to keep in touch with them. This is my reward as a coach. This is why I do it. So I ask you now, do you think that I am doing them a disservice by NOT filming games? By the way, I had a parent film teams one season and wanted me to view the film with him. We went 7-3. We beat the teams that we were suppose to beat, and lost to the ones we were suppose to lose to anyway… we just lost by less points.
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Post by swr on Jan 11, 2008 22:12:18 GMT -6
I have coached youth football for 14yrs - the last 2 years, I started again with a new group of mighty-mite (7-9) kids and will stay with them as they grow/age.. Before I offer any other comments, pls know that all of our coaches believe that winning will happen if we block, tackle and execute better than our opponent so we spend most of our practice time on teaching fundamentals. One of our main goals for the kids is to teach them sufficient fundamentals that they will be able to participate in HS football. That said, we film our games and our opposition - it is the largest part of our team budget. When I can, I prefer to scout in person with a pen and pad but this usually can't happen since the same age groups play at the same time and coaches are required to perform a variety of other duties (snack bar, field monitor, weigh-ins, field set-up, etc) for other games both before and after our game. My experience has been that film helps me be a better coach. Filming our games allows me to spend most of Sunday looking at each player, during each play and make notes about their particular technique and execution. That next week I can focus practice drills on our weaknesses and and our next opponent's strengths. Filming the other team allows me to teach the kids not just what to expect but individual and team responses to a bunch of scenarios that they might encounter - I believe that by doing this, they learn in a controlled practice environment more about football philosophies and fundamentals. For our base O and D we run DW and a 46 defense - and I know the company line - "it doesn't matter what the other team does we will do what we do" - but really, at young ages it does matter what the other team is doing and if I can show the boys during practice what the team defense or offense should do and individually what they should do then I think they will learn the game better than trying to react and teach during a game. At ages 8 and 9 in addition to teaching individual skills, we pull linemen, teach blocking rules, run motion, have multiple formations, blitz, slant, stunt, etc. Do the kids do it perfectly - never, but they get better through the yr. Most importantly, the kids have fun (most return year after year). I know coachld may think our approach is way over the top for this age and it might be, but coaching youth football is an enjoyable hobby for several of our coaches who also have done this for years. We coach because we enjoy it, we enjoy seeing kids get better as football players and in most instances seeing their character growth. We enjoy going to the HS game and watching one of our former guards or tackles have success as a running back (sorry couldn't resist touting the O-linemen). We will continue to film as long as we can afford it.
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Post by spos21ram on Jan 11, 2008 22:58:00 GMT -6
Sorry to state the obvious but no one else has....Could the person under the tree have simply just been a parent filming his child???
But trying to get back on topic. I think it could be considered ethically wrong especially for 7 & 8 year olds, but I wouldn't make anything of it if some one was doing it.
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Post by coachtabales on Jan 12, 2008 17:54:43 GMT -6
Sorry to state the obvious but no one else has....Could the person under the tree have simply just been a parent filming his child??? LOL, that's awesome. I didn't think of that until you just said it. However, if you were going to film your kid, would you do it from the endzone? That seems like an awfully odd place to record your kid's game from.
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Post by coachlu on Feb 26, 2008 1:15:56 GMT -6
I think having film of an oppt helps making prepare for a team that much easier. In my league we play every team twice so all i need is one game vs that team recorded, plus I don't mean to sound arrogant but some of the teams in the league aren't worth recording when we play them. I use the film more to self scout, thats why no matter what I will always record preseason scrimmages vs teams not in our league (it helps me determine personnel). I've learned over the years the team you have to scout the most is your own. We have all our kids come in on there day off after a win if the game is recorded get some food and soda and watch the game , like I tell my kids film don't lie. It gives them and sometimes there parents the opportunity to see my stud RB completely missing an assignment in front of the whole team , or my bench warmer can see why most of the time he is on the bench. We have had kids lose starting spots just from what we see on film. That being said on 2 occasions I have gone and recorded an oppt's game and both times we lost. But even if you cant record your games or your oppt's games you owe it to your kids as their coach to scout the other team and have them as prepared for their oppt as they can possibly be.
GO HURRICANES !!!!
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Post by kcfootballwv on Feb 28, 2008 8:33:17 GMT -6
Not only do I film the other team, i show it to my players on Monday. One, it shortens the week for the younger players. The kids enjoy watching the film of there opponents. two, i believe teaching kids how to watch film at a younger age helps them watch film at the high school level when the game is much faster. I believe it is just like playing. A player who has played since 7 years old understands the game better than a kid who didnt play until high school. The same goes for film study. A player who has watched film his whole life understands what the coaches are talking about better in high school when watching the film. Its not only about winning, but teaching the whole game including the preparation on tuesday. Try explaining to a bunch of kkids what a delaware wing t is at practice, yet see how easy they understand it after an hour of watching it.
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Post by brophy on Feb 28, 2008 8:58:53 GMT -6
question - WHERE do you show youth teams (not MS) film? Most youth teams do not facilities, so I'm asking what available resources can be utilized?
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Post by coachdoug on Feb 28, 2008 11:19:21 GMT -6
question - WHERE do you show youth teams (not MS) film? Most youth teams do not facilities, so I'm asking what available resources can be utilized? I have occassionally showed my youth teams video - typically of their last game rather than the upcoming opponent. Facilities wise, when we practiced at one park, there was a teen center and a scout house run by the city at the park, so we could occassionally get access to one of those facilities for an hour or so. At the other practice field, there were no indoor facilities, but there was a snack-bar type area that had electricity, so I could hook up a TV/DVD player and have the kids sit on the ground. In either situation, I had to bring my own TV and DVD player. I bought a cheap 12 or 14 inch TV and a cheap (like $40) portable DVD player. It would take me about 5-10 minutes to set it all up. It wasn't ideal, but it worked well enough to accomplish what we wanted to do.
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Post by kcfootballwv on Feb 28, 2008 18:17:55 GMT -6
There is a community center with a big screen TV. I reserve the TV from 6-8 on every Monday from September to November. In return me and my coaches "volunteer" to chaparone a dance they have there around Christmas time. We have also used the Cafeteria at our high school. The custodian would wheel us in a TV whenever we asked.
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Post by brophy on Feb 29, 2008 7:54:10 GMT -6
I think that is fantastic and I'd love to see more programs do this.
My concern is, (just like the 'conditioning thread') is the herding cats aspect of youth ball. How do you watch 5-10 minutes of scout / game film without it turning into 30 minutes of transit, seating, discussion, keep your hands to yourself........away from physical practice?
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Post by kcfootballwv on Feb 29, 2008 9:14:47 GMT -6
The room is off of the gym in the comunity center. Nobody is inside that time of year. I make it a point to have a short fuse the first film session every year. the first time I hear talking (besides about the film) We go do about 20 suicides. By week two, all you hear is my voice and legitimate good questions. You would be amazed at what they can comprehend.
Best thing is when a kid in week 6 refers to a team doing something that another team team did back in week two.
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Post by coachdoug on Feb 29, 2008 9:45:12 GMT -6
I think that is fantastic and I'd love to see more programs do this. My concern is, (just like the 'conditioning thread') is the herding cats aspect of youth ball. How do you watch 5-10 minutes of scout / game film without it turning into 30 minutes of transit, seating, discussion, keep your hands to yourself........away from physical practice? It's just like any other disciplinary issue, as KC said, you lay down the law early with something behind it (like 20 suicides) and you'll have their attention all season long. Similarly, I give them a lecture about will or will not be tolerated, and then I back it up with running or whatever if they don't meet my expectations. Another thing I do right at the beginning of August practice is explain to the kids that we need their full attention during practice - not just their attention, but the full commitment of their eyes, ears and minds. After I've explained that, I tell them that anytime I say, "Eyes," they are to immediately stop any other conversation or anything else they are doing (even if it is with another coach) and respond "Ears and Minds." Anyone who does not give coach their full attention including their eyes, ears and minds, starts running. We generally only have to enforce that once, and then for the rest of the season, anytime I need the kids' attention, all I have to do is say, "Eyes"
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Post by coachbork on Feb 29, 2008 10:22:07 GMT -6
Truth is I will spend hours with my own tape figuring out what we need to fix. With a small staff and few of them truly committed that is a lot of time. The most important part of coaching is getting our own house in order. I end up with a laundry list of what every kid needs help with in the next week.
We are allowed to tape our opponents but I just go with pen and paper. I chart and pick up tendencies. Considering most good youth teams don't run that much stuff on either side of the ball, I will see what we need to work on in practice more than once a game. Tape gives me a little advantage but my time is better spent working on my own guys.
If we can get their 4-6 best plays handled, recognize and align to both their formations and athletes, and have an idea of specific players tendencies on defense our scouting has been successful. No one plays their base D against my O so I almost throw out what I see formation wise.
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Post by eickst on Feb 29, 2008 19:00:19 GMT -6
We typically don't spend much time filming opponents but do trade tapes occasionally. So no resources lost acquiring the footage, however viewing and analyzing it is something different.
I think if you understand your own systems than it really shouldn't matter if you know what the other team is going to run ahead of time or not. You as a coach should be able and ready to call what is necessary to take advantage of a defense (or offense) whether or not you have seen the particular alignment/play before or not.
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Post by kcfootballwv on Mar 1, 2008 11:28:25 GMT -6
So you believe that filming at any level is unnecessary?
Filming has nothuing to do with knowing your own system. It has to do with preparing the kids ahead of time on what they will see.
I believe that coaches that don't film in my league, believe it doesn't matter. however, myself and the the coaches that do can all tell that their teams are just not as well prepared. I'm not saying some aren't successful, but their success is usually dependant on their talent level.
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Post by eickst on Mar 2, 2008 18:44:18 GMT -6
So you believe that filming at any level is unnecessary? Filming has nothuing to do with knowing your own system. It has to do with preparing the kids ahead of time on what they will see. I believe that coaches that don't film in my league, believe it doesn't matter. however, myself and the the coaches that do can all tell that their teams are just not as well prepared. I'm not saying some aren't successful, but their success is usually dependant on their talent level. I do not think that it is unnecessary at any level. But you are looking at some coaches, who in a coincidence do not film, and saying that it is the cause of their failure? What if they did film but had the same results? Would they only then be considered bad coaches?
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Post by davecisar on Mar 2, 2008 18:56:37 GMT -6
I dont film, with running an entire program and coaching multiple teams, too much to do. In the last 8 seasons I did have film on one very good team (Ive scouted several) and it was invaluable. Huge blowout for us in game we probably would have won anyway in maybe a closer game.
BUT we have a very nice methodology of game day scouting/keys that help us isolate things pretty quickly and we are very good at alingment on defense vs really ANY front.
On offense we have about 5-8 set named/tagged adjustments we are very good at as well.
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Post by cyflcoach on Mar 3, 2008 1:03:53 GMT -6
Regardless of what level of play we're talking about, the last time I checked, it has been my belief that a coach should attempt to put his kids in a position where they can be "successful", regardless of whatever your definition of that word entails. That certainly includes teaching them to play the game in a fundamentally sound way but it also means that as a coach, I should do what's necessary to prepare them for every opponent as best I can.
As a coach, I must always be ready to make adjustments, but, that does not mean that I like surprises!
Just my opinion...
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Post by davecisar on Mar 3, 2008 5:48:42 GMT -6
When you head coach 2 games every Sunday and manage another, pretty tough to be 2 places at one time and by most definitions 78-5 is fairly successful LOL. We try to worry the most about doing what we do and controlling what we can control, then being good game day coaches that can make good game day adjustments. Of course always having well prepared kids that are scheme rule sound so we can cover about anything the offense or defense throws against us. If I didnt coach 2+ teams or have 4 little kids and my teams were struggling, maybe I would view it differently. The opportunnity cost of my time just isnt worth it but for maybe one game per year tops.
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Post by kcfootballwv on Mar 3, 2008 11:52:51 GMT -6
Eickst,
My point was that filming can only help and never hurt. To say you can prepare as well without it is ignorant. There is a reason the NFL and colleges evaluate film.
If your next statement is that this is youth football and not the NFL, then I ask when does film become valuable?
The game is the same at all levels, the only difference in levels is talent.
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Post by eickst on Mar 5, 2008 13:32:32 GMT -6
What if the coaches who are filming don't know what they are looking for or see things incorrectly? Is that helpful? The point I am trying to get across is that poor coaches are, well, poor, and good coaches are good. It has nothing to do with filming. A poor coach who films will still have an unprepared team. A good coach who doesn't film will have a prepared team. In my eyes film becomes valuable when it's shot well, and I don't have a full time job occupying my time to review it. The game is NOT the same at all levels. Youth football players usually have better technique than NFL players
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