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Post by airraider on Sept 12, 2007 18:14:06 GMT -6
My HC.. who also happens to be a really good friend of mine is really doing some things on defense that are unsound.. He is as stubborn as a mule and just chalks it up to the we will just have to agree to disagree bit..
Im calling the O and he is calling the D.. now we go back a little and he just got this job and I am here because he put the full court press on me and got me over here.. so its not an issue of insubordination.. he just wont listen to reason and I am venting some..
please tell me if this makes sense to you..
we have no athletes.. hard nosed kids.. but no athletes.. The program so far is 3-29 in the last 3 years and 2 weeks.
we are a base 3-4 cover 3 team with a rover type safety.
We have about a million different calls and adjustments that we can get into.. we rarely practice them live.. just line up against different formations and walk through the different calls vs the formations.
But here are the kickers.. the OLB's.. he has them playing as the force players.. but they line up inside of #2 vs double twins.. We have been blocked down very much over the last 2 weeks.. they block down.. and the corner that is supposed to replace is bailing in cover 3..
Now, he also has these flat defenders coming up in the flats as soon as the flats are threatened..
they bubble the back.. hes coming..
My question to him is.. ok.. well if #1 runs a curl and #2 runs a bubble or a flat route.. then who is there to defend the curl? and his response is the corner.. and my response is.. how can the corner be deep 3rd and defend the curl?
Or.. what if they flare the back.. run #1 on curl.. and run #2 on Flag? He says the FS has to get over top of the Flag route and the corner has to attack the curl..
So I respond again.. what if.. they run the flag on both sides.. and he says.. the FS gets over the top of the side the QB is looking..
And I said.. well what if he looks off right and throws left.. and he said.. well this is high school.. not the NFL.. so I guess he doesnt think a HS QB can look one way and throw another..
I am just extremely frustrated right now.. we gave up 550 total yards last week.. and no telling how many the week before..
Am I wrong in assuming these are unsound techniques?
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Post by coachcalande on Sept 12, 2007 18:26:54 GMT -6
play man to man and you dont have all those issues.  |
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Post by wildcat on Sept 12, 2007 18:37:39 GMT -6
well...
Seeing that you are the offensive coordinator, I really don't think it is your place to make an issue about the defense. You have stated your objections to what he is doing and he did not agree with what you saw. Fine. Move on and do your best to get the offense in a position where you can have some kind of measureable successes (yards per game, points scored, whatever it may be).
I guess what I am saying is do your job, not his.
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Post by wildcat on Sept 12, 2007 18:38:11 GMT -6
play man to man and you dont have all those issues. ...and run the DW!  |
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Post by brophy on Sept 12, 2007 18:51:49 GMT -6
airraider,
you are my hero.
Just be glad that dude doesn't run Cover 6, 'cause that mess jes' don't work.
....An' lemme tell you sometin' else....
well... Seeing that you are the offensive coordinator, I really don't think it is your place to make an issue about the defense. You have stated your objections to what he is doing and he did not agree with what you saw. Fine. Move on and do your best to get the offense in a position where you can have some kind of measureable successes (yards per game, points scored, whatever it may be). I guess what I am saying is do your job, not his.
I disagree with this.
We coach, to coach for the best interest of the program. If the guy on the "other side" is part of what WE are doing, is just crazy.....he is creating a liability for the TEAM. Folks don't have carte blanche to piss it all down your leg.
Now how you ADDRESS it, might be at issue, but offense challenging the defense and defense challenging the offense NEEDS to happen during the week. You need more than ONE guy making these decisions. Rather have the issues dealt with (exposed) in the coaches office, rather than in front of a stadium in a game.
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Post by airraider on Sept 12, 2007 18:53:12 GMT -6
well... Seeing that you are the offensive coordinator, I really don't think it is your place to make an issue about the defense. You have stated your objections to what he is doing and he did not agree with what you saw. Fine. Move on and do your best to get the offense in a position where you can have some kind of measureable successes (yards per game, points scored, whatever it may be). I guess what I am saying is do your job, not his. Yea, you are right.. and I tend to feel like that is what I should do.. but at the same time.. I dont just want to just score points.. I want to WIN.. I of course would never go out and {censored} and moan about this in front of anyone other than people on this board.. because yall dont know him from Adam.. But.. since I didnt ask if it was my place to {censored} about the defense.. I will ask the question that I did ask.. again.. Is that sound defense?? |
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Post by airraider on Sept 12, 2007 18:55:04 GMT -6
airraider, you are my hero. Just be glad that dude doesn't run Cover 6, 'cause that mess jes' don't work. ....An' lemme tell you sometin' else.... lol.. I am all about it baby.. all about it.. |
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Post by brophy on Sept 12, 2007 19:02:27 GMT -6
Personally, I think you did what you were "supposed" to do. You at least addressed it (privately). He gave you an answer. If he refuses to address it - it is his neck on the line. don't you run a form of "Doubles" as your base offense? How does the defense align to this? How does he handle 4 verts out of C3? I am assuming you are sky/clouding this, or is there something going on in the front to allow 5 underneath defenders to align evenly? So lemme guess...you are really running some old-school 5-3, right? At least you got to run Ragin Cajun Drill.....
---------C------------------F---------------------C--------
---------------------Q--------S--------$-------------------
------------W--E--------N----------E----A----------------
----X------------O--O--[-]--O---O-------------Y----------
---------A---------------Q---------------------------Z-----
--------------------------F--------------------------------
Every formation causes the defense to adjust from its coverage or risk being outnumbered. Does he at least acknowledge where he is vulnerable at in coverage / run support (That is half the battle) before he'll recognize when he's getting formationed-to-death. If he has an answer for each realistic scenario that the kids can execute then go for it. Usually, when you do this, folks will either stumble for an answer and recognize their 'beliefs' have been confronted or just continue to bury their heads in the ground. I, at least, understand your point of 1) you don't have the luxury of having athletes that can make up for being out of position 2) your kids cannot compete physically, so you are looking for an edge to keep them in position to make plays. - |
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Post by airraider on Sept 12, 2007 19:21:14 GMT -6
Personally, I think you did what you were "supposed" to do. You at least addressed it (privately). He gave you an answer. If he refuses to address it - it is his neck on the line. don't you run a form of "Doubles" as your base offense? How does the defense align to this? How does he handle 4 verts out of C3? I am assuming you are sky/clouding this, or is there something going on in the front to allow 5 underneath defenders to align evenly? So lemme guess...you are really running some old-school 5-3, right? At least you got to run Ragin Cajun Drill.....
---------C------------------F---------------------C--------
---------------------Q--------S--------$-------------------
------------W--E--------N----------E----A----------------
----X------------O--O--[-]--O---O-------------Y----------
---------A---------------Q---------------------------Z-----
--------------------------F--------------------------------
Every formation causes the defense to adjust from its coverage or risk being outnumbered. Does he at least acknowledge where he is vulnerable at in coverage / run support (That is half the battle) before he'll recognize when he's getting formationed-to-death. If he has an answer for each realistic scenario that the kids can execute then go for it. Usually, when you do this, folks will either stumble for an answer and recognize their 'beliefs' have been confronted or just continue to bury their heads in the ground. I, at least, understand your point of 1) you don't have the luxury of having athletes that can make up for being out of position 2) your kids cannot compete physically, so you are looking for an edge to keep them in position to make plays. - well not exactly.. I could understand playing the OLB's up close and inside if... you were playing a 2 look and the Corners had contain and flats.. but we still have the OLB's outside.. just not outside the #2.. he has them a yard inside instead of a yard outside.. and they are off 4-5 yards.. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2007 19:22:24 GMT -6
Who says cover 6 doesn't work??? It's been great for us, course you better get there too, but I'll be dammed if it ain't the same w/playing m2m!!! That's joke thinking a cov. 3 safety will be over the top of anything run outside the hashes. Last time I checked, you said you had no athletes and that sounds like use too (our fs doesn't wear an "S" on his chest either. I think you did the right thing, and it sounds as thought you did it tastefully. I hate it though when two coaches get in a if I do this then who's gonna cover this argument b/c the guy w/the chalk last wins...always!
To the issue of the flat player being inside of #2, this is where I'd play him too, so I disagree w/you there. What about split rules? I mean what if they put #2 outside the hashes, are you going to put your force player outside of #2, I hope not! That's the reason for playing cov. 2, sky, cloud etc. keep the o guessing where the flat player is. In cov. 3 vs. a detached #2 I think you better have the flat/force player aligned inside #2 or they will seam your a$$ to death, or just split you way out and run the ball in the alley that your deep 1/3 safety (not a good plan) will have to fill. The key to it IMO is get your flats players who are olb's in your case to come downhill on the snap and read, and then bail to the flats when they get a high-hat read.
Duece
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Post by brophy on Sept 12, 2007 19:28:32 GMT -6
well not exactly.. I could understand playing the OLB's up close and inside if... you were playing a 2 look and the Corners had contain and flats.. but we still have the OLB's outside.. just not outside the #2.. he has them a yard inside instead of a yard outside.. and they are off 4-5 yards.. yeah, word. But you guys don't run anything other than Cover 3, though, don't you? Which is why I say, he is "old-school" and you may call it a 3-4, but it really is just a 5-3 because those OLBs are probably coming and the WOLB doesn't really respect the weak flat because he aligns in the Curl. If you DON'T challenge his beliefs, he'll do what he does out of convenience because maybe he just doesn't know any better. I'm jes' sayin' - you can be tough as you want but if you don't align correctly, you are going to get your tail beat like a Hebrew slave. "Well align the WOLB in a 9 tech....well, because that's what a '3-4' looks like...........uh, he's supposed to be the flat player.......er....uh....." Coverage first, Run support second, Alignment is the sum of those two products. Challenging his beliefs may bring him back to what is really important. Shoot, I dunno. I mean, you have 3 deep zone players You have 5 underneath zone players 3 down linemen. Are your "stud" linemen two-gap reading everything? What gaps do everyone have? ----------X----O--O--[-]--O--O----Y---------------------- If the OLB has curl-to-flat, then sure align him inside a split #2 But this OLB is supposed to be a FLAT player only.....why align him in the Curl? airraider, man, this thread pisses me off so much, I don't think I'm gonna go into work tomorrow, lol |
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Post by airraider on Sept 12, 2007 20:34:24 GMT -6
Who says cover 6 doesn't work??? It's been great for us, course you better get there too, but I'll be dammed if it ain't the same w/playing m2m!!! That's joke thinking a cov. 3 safety will be over the top of anything run outside the hashes. Last time I checked, you said you had no athletes and that sounds like use too (our fs doesn't wear an "S" on his chest either. I think you did the right thing, and it sounds as thought you did it tastefully. I hate it though when two coaches get in a if I do this then who's gonna cover this argument b/c the guy w/the chalk last wins...always! To the issue of the flat player being inside of #2, this is where I'd play him too, so I disagree w/you there. What about split rules? I mean what if they put #2 outside the hashes, are you going to put your force player outside of #2, I hope not! That's the reason for playing cov. 2, sky, cloud etc. keep the o guessing where the flat player is. In cov. 3 vs. a detached #2 I think you better have the flat/force player aligned inside #2 or they will seam your a$$ to death, or just split you way out and run the ball in the alley that your deep 1/3 safety (not a good plan) will have to fill. The key to it IMO is get your flats players who are olb's in your case to come downhill on the snap and read, and then bail to the flats when they get a high-hat read. Duece You are completely right.. We dont have our OLB's taking a read step.. they are bailing now if #2 goes vertical now.. Another thing that I really like in 3 is for the FS to be an alley player.. and for the corners to NEVER play the run until the ball has crossed the line.. he wants the corners to play hard against the run and for the FS to get over the top of flow and NEVER play the run.. HB Pass.. corner comes up and FS gets over the top.. good in theory.. But.. the other night.. first TD.. QB sprinted out.. deep 3rd corner flew up to take on the QB like a QB sweep.. FS never showed.. hit the deep corner for a LONGGG TD.. |
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Post by shamespiral on Sept 12, 2007 20:41:56 GMT -6
Airraider,
1. You need to ride for the brand.
2. Im the OC, my best friend is the HC/DC. He always tells me to make sure we score more than the D gives up. It's a simple and sound philosophy. Follow it.
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Post by airraider on Sept 12, 2007 20:42:33 GMT -6
well not exactly.. I could understand playing the OLB's up close and inside if... you were playing a 2 look and the Corners had contain and flats.. but we still have the OLB's outside.. just not outside the #2.. he has them a yard inside instead of a yard outside.. and they are off 4-5 yards.. yeah, word. But you guys don't run anything other than Cover 3, though, don't you? Which is why I say, he is "old-school" and you may call it a 3-4, but it really is just a 5-3 because those OLBs are probably coming and the WOLB doesn't really respect the weak flat because he aligns in the Curl. If you DON'T challenge his beliefs, he'll do what he does out of convenience because maybe he just doesn't know any better. I'm jes' sayin' - you can be tough as you want but if you don't align correctly, you are going to get your tail beat like a Hebrew slave. "Well align the WOLB in a 9 tech....well, because that's what a '3-4' looks like...........uh, he's supposed to be the flat player.......er....uh....." Coverage first, Run support second, Alignment is the sum of those two products. Challenging his beliefs may bring him back to what is really important. Shoot, I dunno. I mean, you have 3 deep zone players You have 5 underneath zone players 3 down linemen. Are your "stud" linemen two-gap reading everything? What gaps do everyone have? ----------X----O--O--[-]--O--O----Y---------------------- If the OLB has curl-to-flat, then sure align him inside a split #2 But this OLB is supposed to be a FLAT player only.....why align him in the Curl? airraider, man, this thread pisses me off so much, I don't think I'm gonna go into work tomorrow, lol well thats the problem.. we run TOO much to be any good at any one thing.. we run 0, 1, 2, 3.. with this guy filling for this blitzer.. and this guy filling for that blitzer.. its so much that we never have a chance to see it all vs different plays and we usually just line up in formations and get them to walk through the blitzes and make sure that everyone knows who they have when in 0.. We have no stud D-linemen.. he likes to shade the nose strong and the "stud" backer plays the other A.. his "bear" plays strong and has B gap.. and the Ends will have a C and a B depending on the strength.. the strong side OLB has weak C gap.. Brophy.. you know if it was up to me.. I would bring out the Feaster playbook.. |
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Post by airraider on Sept 12, 2007 20:44:54 GMT -6
Airraider, 1. You need to ride for the brand. 2. Im the OC, my best friend is the HC/DC. He always tells me to make sure we score more than the D gives up. It's a simple and sound philosophy. Follow it. lol.. thats exactly what he tells me.. and we are pretty much best friends too.. he is my elder by about 18 years or so.. but he is probably my best friend.. and me his only friend.. haha.. |
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Post by brophy on Sept 12, 2007 20:47:50 GMT -6
Airraider, 1. You need to ride for the brand. 2. Im the OC, my best friend is the HC/DC. He always tells me to make sure we score more than the D gives up. It's a simple and sound philosophy. Follow it. what happens when the HC is a close friend [even though NO ONE likes airraider]? Keep your mouth shut for the good of the pecking order? In the (real) business world, we call that a "Yes" man.Sorry, I find that mentality of "company line" as idiocy. As long as you are not ursurping the authority, conflicting in front of the troops, it is your DUTY to at least bring up concerns that EXPERIENCE has taught you to prevent a massacre on Friday night.  Brophy.. you know if it was up to me.. I would bring out the Feaster playbook.. Well, at least you still have that blow-up doll of him that you sleep with, right? well, at least he isn't sticking his nose in on offense and telling how you should run mesh. |
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Post by knight9299 on Sept 12, 2007 21:05:52 GMT -6
I'm running into a similar problem. Only it's reverse. The OC/HC doesn't script anything for practice he just goes down his list. We rarely practice plays against coverages that puts that play in conflict. It's always against the coverage that makes that play work the best. If a scout team player makes a break on a pass, he gets reamed for not playing his responsibility. But in the games all of our INTs have been because of guys breaking off and jumping routes. One of our assistant said so and got his butt chewed. Airraider, I know what it's like.
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Post by brophy on Sept 12, 2007 21:08:14 GMT -6
My question to him is.. ok.. well if #1 runs a curl and #2 runs a bubble or a flat route.. then who is there to defend the curl? and his response is the corner.. and my response is.. how can the corner be deep 3rd and defend the curl? Or.. what if they flare the back.. run #1 on curl.. and run #2 on Flag? He says the FS has to get over top of the Flag route and the corner has to attack the curl..   just so I understand.... the WOLB is supposed to play JUST flat (and be the "D" gap player)? Or is he supposed to cover Curl-to-Flat? If the former, then I assume the WILB plays weak B gap AND plays JUST the CURL (then the MLB plays Hook, right)? If the former (WOLB) scenario, then does the WILB play B gap, then HOOK-to-CURL?! If so, what does the MLB really do? The SOLB plays just CURL or just FLAT? Got to hang out with airraider ONCE......him and his staff are a trip. "Coaches Meeting", yeah right, this is what it was like |
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Post by CVBears on Sept 12, 2007 22:52:43 GMT -6
I never thought cover 0,1,2,3 was a lot to put on a plate (in and of itself). combining that with 5 fronts and 5,000 blitz combos is another.
That said, the main issue I would have would be the coverage of the OLB's. The questions you asked are completely valid and I have no idea how the guy can still do what he is doing. I think you are handling it the right way, by asking questions. What else can you professionally do? Keep asking the what ifs (as long as they are reasonable). Eventually he will understand (he is an HC afterall, isn't he?).
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Post by airraider on Sept 13, 2007 5:14:11 GMT -6
I never thought cover 0,1,2,3 was a lot to put on a plate (in and of itself). combining that with 5 fronts and 5,000 blitz combos is another. That said, the main issue I would have would be the coverage of the OLB's. The questions you asked are completely valid and I have no idea how the guy can still do what he is doing. I think you are handling it the right way, by asking questions. What else can you professionally do? Keep asking the what ifs (as long as they are reasonable). Eventually he will understand (he is an HC afterall, isn't he?). You are right.. You NEED all of those coverages to some point.. but.. we run cover 0 Wolf go, Bear Go, Stud Go, Rover Go, Hornet Go.. Strong.. weak.. 40.. this that the other.. would be better if... he didnt get the job in July and we had the spring and summer to get all this together.. or.. if these kids were ball players when we got here.. but they dont know the game at all.. Over the past two years they have been out scored 821-59. |
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