|
|
Post by poweriguy on Oct 1, 2007 0:36:15 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by timtheenchanter on Oct 1, 2007 14:43:52 GMT -6
Not legal in either Fed or NCAA rules. In NCAA it's a 15 yard UNS penalty.
|
|
|
|
Post by eickst on Oct 1, 2007 15:38:19 GMT -6
Yep, any ref worth his salt will flag that one.
|
|
|
|
Post by Yash on Oct 1, 2007 20:30:07 GMT -6
I'm fine with the fumbleruski (although its now illegal) I'm fine with all kinds of trick plays, but this crap is bush league, especially when I see it run in youth leagues. Teach football not stupid stuff like this.
|
|
|
|
Post by rjam on Oct 1, 2007 20:41:26 GMT -6
how is this illegal, as long as everyone was set the ball can be moved, you dont even have to snap it you can just grab it and go!
Our team ran a 2 pt conversion were the longsnapper just grabbed the ball and underhanded it to the FB which was behind the other lineman on the left hash. Totally legal to just grab the ball once the ball is whistled in play in any league.
|
|
|
|
Post by airraider on Oct 1, 2007 20:54:58 GMT -6
how is this illegal, as long as everyone was set the ball can be moved, you dont even have to snap it you can just grab it and go! Our team ran a 2 pt conversion were the longsnapper just grabbed the ball and underhanded it to the FB which was behind the other lineman on the left hash. Totally legal to just grab the ball once the ball is whistled in play in any league. It has to do with using verbiage in an attempt to deceive the defense. Cannot do it. |
|
|
|
Post by rjam on Oct 1, 2007 21:02:13 GMT -6
ah, so the coach talking screws it up.. I see.
|
|
|
|
Post by coach79 on Oct 1, 2007 21:16:05 GMT -6
No it has to do with, deceiving the other team in an unsportsman like way.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachcoyote on Oct 1, 2007 21:55:15 GMT -6
Looks to me like the ball was snapped. If so it's legal. Had anyone tackled the QB or caused a fumble, it would be a free ball.
|
|
tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
|
Post by tedseay on Oct 2, 2007 4:26:03 GMT -6
Looks to me like the ball was snapped. If so it's legal. Rule citation?  |
|
|
|
Post by davecisar on Oct 2, 2007 7:09:47 GMT -6
From another thread, this play is bush league and illegal everywhere.
Rule 9 covers this. Here is the "where's the tee" play from the case book.
9.9.3 Situation B: From a field goal formation, potential kicker A1 yells, “Where’s the tee?” A2 replies, “I’ll go get it” and goes legally in motion toward his team’s sideline. Ball is snapped to A1 who throws a touchdown pass to A2.
Ruling: Unsportsmanlike conduct prior to snap. The ball should be declared dead and the foul enforced as a dead-ball foul.
Comment: Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal
|
|
|
|
Post by timtheenchanter on Oct 2, 2007 7:48:43 GMT -6
Looks to me like the ball was snapped. If so it's legal. Rule citation? For those of you in Texas, Mass., and College, here is the NCAA reference: 9.2.2.c c. No equipment may be used to confuse opponents (Rule 1-4-2-e). This eliminates the wrong ball, where's the tee, wrong shoe, and any other piece of equipment that could be used as an excuse. While we are at it, you can't do Where's Johnny, or Where's Jose', or we are missing Steve, because you can't use substitutions to deceive either 9.2.2.b b. No simulated replacements or substitutions may be used to confuse opponents. No tactic associated with substitutes or the substitution process may be used to confuse opponents (Rule 3-5-2-e) (A.R. 9-2-2-IVII). |
|
|
|
Post by timtheenchanter on Oct 2, 2007 7:51:18 GMT -6
From another thread, this play is bush league and illegal everywhere. Dave, I answer this question once or twice a year in different forums (online, in a game, on a youth field, etc.). It is kind of like crab grass. You think you have it killed and then another season starts and it is back  |
|
|
|
Post by davecisar on Oct 2, 2007 8:25:50 GMT -6
Agreed, and thanks for the citations from your rule books.
Obviously though not all refs have this one down. I see no flags on this video clip and I have friends in other youth leagues that have had this play run against them. I even saw a UTube type clip of a HS team getting a TD with this play last year.
I even had ONE OF MY PARENTS e-mail me that exact clip and was shocked they suggested that it be a "new play" for us. After citing your post I did explain in rather lengthy terms how bush league and unethical the play was and why we would never use it. ( First year dad)
|
|
|
|
Post by fort on Oct 2, 2007 9:20:15 GMT -6
I hate this play. Absolute poo. We've not had it run against us, but I worry we will. With the officiating we often get (one ref most of the time, too; 8th grade, BTW), I'm concerned it wouldn't get called. HATE this play and wonder why coaches continue to try and run it. Unsportsmanlike, etc...
|
|
|
|
Post by wingt74 on Oct 2, 2007 9:37:35 GMT -6
Rule citation? For those of you in Texas, Mass., and College, here is the NCAA reference: 9.2.2.c c. No equipment may be used to confuse opponents (Rule 1-4-2-e). This eliminates the wrong ball, where's the tee, wrong shoe, and any other piece of equipment that could be used as an excuse. While we are at it, you can't do Where's Johnny, or Where's Jose', or we are missing Steve, because you can't use substitutions to deceive either 9.2.2.b b. No simulated replacements or substitutions may be used to confuse opponents. No tactic associated with substitutes or the substitution process may be used to confuse opponents (Rule 3-5-2-e) (A.R. 9-2-2-IVII). It's a shame they have to spell out what "Bush league" means. Sometimes I wish the rules would be vague for situations like this. But I s'pose, you could have a Ref that flags you for using the swing gate formation or Boise State Statue of Liberty. |
|
tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
|
Post by tedseay on Oct 3, 2007 3:09:40 GMT -6
Rule citation? For those of you in Texas, Mass., and College, here is the NCAA reference: 9.2.2.c c. No equipment may be used to confuse opponents (Rule 1-4-2-e). This eliminates the wrong ball, where's the tee, wrong shoe, and any other piece of equipment that could be used as an excuse. While we are at it, you can't do Where's Johnny, or Where's Jose', or we are missing Steve, because you can't use substitutions to deceive either 9.2.2.b b. No simulated replacements or substitutions may be used to confuse opponents. No tactic associated with substitutes or the substitution process may be used to confuse opponents (Rule 3-5-2-e) (A.R. 9-2-2-IVII). Let me add my thanks to Dave's and others'. Now just to prove that no good deed goes unpunished, do you have the Federation cite? ;D (The reason I ask is that the NFHS rule that Dave mentions does not seem to cover this situation, where the deception takes place after the ball is snapped...) |
|
|
|
Post by los on Oct 3, 2007 6:43:55 GMT -6
It is interesting Ted, in that the offense is totally set at the "unusual" but seemingly legal snap, (at which time the defense should have tee'd off on someone since the ball moved/was actually lifted, after it was ready for play)  Coach coyote might be on to something here, since the kid doesn't even start the deception till awhile after the snap! So its either an illegal motion/snap by the center or a legal snap, after the ball in play signal is given, and the QB is just very brave for doing this good acting job?  Its a similar kinda play to one we practiced at the youth level= on a quick hitch from under center, i.e.(backwards pass), if the pass hit the ground and skipped to the wr, we taught them to get possession (quickly of course), but then kinda shrug their shoulders and fake complain about the incomplete pass, slowly walking back toward the QB, then "scat" down the field, lol! Sorta the same kind of deception? Even though the heading says HS team trick play, these guys look like MS or JR. high at best to me? I'd like to think, that a varsity D-line would be all over this, on ball movement  |
|
|
|
Post by eickst on Oct 3, 2007 10:40:16 GMT -6
I would love for someone to run this play against me. I hope they have a good backup QB.
|
|
|
|
Post by toddniklaus on Oct 5, 2007 8:16:13 GMT -6
Do you feel this is close to the same as a direct snap to the RB while the QB is getting a play call from the sideline? This happens a lot in Minnesota.
|
|
|
|
Post by wingt74 on Oct 5, 2007 9:38:41 GMT -6
Do you feel this is close to the same as a direct snap to the RB while the QB is getting a play call from the sideline? This happens a lot in Minnesota. Boy, thats close...but I would have to say no |
|
tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
|
Post by tedseay on Oct 5, 2007 11:11:04 GMT -6
(The reason I ask is that the NFHS rule that Dave mentions does not seem to cover this situation, where the deception takes place after the ball is snapped...) Coaches: I have apparently been barking up the wrong tree. The distinction is not whether the ball has been snapped, the distinction is the nature of the deception involved. Anything designed to make it look as though the ball is not live should be flagged under the section of the rules entitled Unfair Acts (9-9 of the NFHS rules). It may be covered by rule 9-9-3, acts which tend to make a travesty of the game, or it may have been placed in its own section as rule 9-9-4. I'm still trying to clarify which exact rule applies, but the bottom line is that this isn't football... |
|
|
|
Post by wingt74 on Oct 5, 2007 11:39:49 GMT -6
(The reason I ask is that the NFHS rule that Dave mentions does not seem to cover this situation, where the deception takes place after the ball is snapped...) Coaches: I have apparently been barking up the wrong tree. The distinction is not whether the ball has been snapped, the distinction is the nature of the deception involved. Anything designed to make it look as though the ball is not live should be flagged under the section of the rules entitled Unfair Acts (9-9 of the NFHS rules). It may be covered by rule 9-9-3, acts which tend to make a travesty of the game, or it may have been placed in its own section as rule 9-9-4. I'm still trying to clarify which exact rule applies, but the bottom line is that this isn't football... What is interesting here is...what if the CB on the defense just realized what was happening and hammers that QB walking to the sidelines? There a flag thrown? Does it stop play? |
|
|
|
Post by eickst on Oct 5, 2007 15:12:22 GMT -6
Coaches: I have apparently been barking up the wrong tree. The distinction is not whether the ball has been snapped, the distinction is the nature of the deception involved. Anything designed to make it look as though the ball is not live should be flagged under the section of the rules entitled Unfair Acts (9-9 of the NFHS rules). It may be covered by rule 9-9-3, acts which tend to make a travesty of the game, or it may have been placed in its own section as rule 9-9-4. I'm still trying to clarify which exact rule applies, but the bottom line is that this isn't football... What is interesting here is...what if the CB on the defense just realized what was happening and hammers that QB walking to the sidelines? There a flag thrown? Does it stop play? That's what I would coach my players to do if they saw this horse hooey. You wanna play games? Play them on the bench after the smelling salts wake you up. |
|
dlo
Sophomore Member
Posts: 128
|
Post by dlo on Oct 6, 2007 19:24:45 GMT -6
We had a team run that last night against us at the varsity level. They ran it on their own 1 yard line. To answer the question, what happens when you hammer the QB.......the refs reward you with a safety. hahaahah.
|
|
|
|
Post by davecisar on Oct 6, 2007 21:17:07 GMT -6
Serves em right for that baloney bush league garbage!
|
|
|
|
Post by oguru on Oct 7, 2007 11:48:24 GMT -6
I was refereeing a youth game once and one of the teams did this I blew it dead,and called a unsportsmanlike conduct penalty right away. The coaches went nuts, and ran on the field at me and I threw one more and ejected the coach.
The play is wrong, illegal,and unethical.
As far as the play in Minnesota, I would do the same thign deception is okay. As long as it is done in the right way, not bush league BS like this.
|
|
tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
|
Post by tedseay on Oct 8, 2007 3:03:47 GMT -6
What is interesting here is...what if the CB on the defense just realized what was happening and hammers that QB walking to the sidelines? I've read recently on another forum of a QB whose season was ended by a play just like this...the play should be stopped by the officials as soon as they see what's happening, but in any event, it should come back. And if they haven't whistled it dead, that QB is fair game. |
|
coachpodach
Freshmen Member
We're on a mission from God...
Posts: 69
|
Post by coachpodach on Oct 9, 2007 5:38:47 GMT -6
Watched our Pee-wee program Sun. and they were up by 2 late in the fourth quarter, and wouldn't you know it, the opposing team's quarterback had the wrong ball too! Myself and another varsity coach instantly yelled" tackle him" and sure enough, the little guys went after the QB before he broke up field. Overheard 2 moms yelling "We have Internet too!" Pretty funny stuff.
It's pretty low when you have to resort to this kind of stuff with the little guys, isn't the main focus to teach the game? I guess we all learned a little something by this.
|
|
Coach coyote might be on to something here, since the kid doesn't even start the deception till awhile after the snap! So its either an illegal motion/snap by the center or a legal snap, after the ball in play signal is given, and the QB is just very brave for doing this good acting job? 
Its a similar kinda play to one we practiced at the youth level= on a quick hitch from under center, i.e.(backwards pass), if the pass hit the ground and skipped to the wr, we taught them to get possession (quickly of course), but then kinda shrug their shoulders and fake complain about the incomplete pass, slowly walking back toward the QB, then "scat" down the field, lol! Sorta the same kind of deception? 
