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Post by wildcat on Dec 6, 2006 18:03:53 GMT -6
What kinds of offenses and defenses did the first football teams run? I understand that American football after the Civil War was basically like rugby or soccer, but, when football became an 11-man game, how did the offense move the ball in terms of formations? What formations did the defense try and stop it with?
Also, before the "flying wedge" was outlawed, was that basically what a football game was? The teams would just run the "flying wedge" back and forth?
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Post by blb on Dec 6, 2006 18:13:24 GMT -6
Pretty much the "Flying Wedge" and other "mass formations" until Teddy Roosevelt threatened to shut the game down in 1906 unless colleges made it safer. Now, a century later, some coaches are bringing back that type of game (DW).  |
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Post by coachcalande on Dec 6, 2006 18:13:40 GMT -6
I know at some point teams lined up with a T backfield but the qb was still not under center completely...have you read Heismans book? great read.
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Post by tothehouse on Dec 6, 2006 19:04:03 GMT -6
Forward pass was illegal for awhile.
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Post by wildcat on Dec 6, 2006 19:30:53 GMT -6
Forward pass was illegal for awhile. It still is in some parts of Illinois...  |
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jmh21
Freshmen Member
Posts: 88
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Post by jmh21 on Dec 6, 2006 19:31:05 GMT -6
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Post by spreadattack on Dec 6, 2006 19:39:19 GMT -6
This is Ted Seay's forte...
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Post by fbdoc on Dec 6, 2006 19:58:17 GMT -6
As a "football historian" I can tell you the Flying wedge was supposedly invented at Yale in the 1840's as a special way to beat Princeton, But the game is much older than that.
In England, King Edward II outlawed "the hustling over large footballs, from which many evils arise.." A quote from an observer called this game "rather a friendly kind of fight than play, more a bloody murdering practice than a fellowly sport..."
In the 1600's in Manchester, England, the town fathers created their own ordinance banning the sport saying, "... there is a great disorder in our town... by a group of lewd and disordered persons using that unlawful exercise of playing with the football in the streets..."
In the later 1800's the college "rush" between the freshmen and the sophomores was a return the early days of anything goes brawling. At Harvard, "Football Day" was also known as Bloody Monday.
The game continued to evolve - Westminster Abby had Game in Cloister, and indoor version played by the young priests. When some buildings were torn down and a field created, it became Game in Green. Eton had the Wall Game, sort of a rugby like scrum against a stone wall. At Rugby (another private school) it is often credited with the "first" player picking up the ball and running with it.
As colleges and towns continued to popularize the game, the Flying Wedge was the main way to advance the ball, although passing was also used. In the early 1900's the oblong shaped ball was often flung like a discus (or "heaving a pumpkin") in an attempt to escape from the pile ups resulting from the wedge.
A "guards forward" formation was one of the early adjustments that lead to breaking up the wedge. Establishing the neutral zone, along with the outlawing of kicking and punching continued to move the game closer to the modern version.
Coachcalande is correct about the version of an early T-formation with the player receiving the snap not quite under center. However many teams would have the center facing back wards and try to fling the snap almost sideways to a back in an attempt to get outside of the defense.
Sorry about the length of this post - obviously I got carried away!
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Post by wildcat on Dec 7, 2006 7:19:35 GMT -6
fbdoc -
Great stuff! Keep posting if you have more!
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Post by fbdoc on Dec 7, 2006 7:35:20 GMT -6
Thanks. I'll put a little bit more up tonight and give a few resources as well. Some of the early stuff is still interesting to read about.
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Post by fbdoc on Dec 7, 2006 19:46:54 GMT -6
Formation wise, the wedge gave way in the 1900's to what today would probably be called a "Tight T" with the FB set further back than the halfbacks. The center was often asked to snap the ball directly to the back who was going to carry it. Linemen were much lower in their stance to allow them to bulldoze the defense (or offense).
During the 1920's the End around, Statue of Liberty, and even the Tackle around were used as mis-direction plays. Passing was not unheard of but the game was still a power with a dash of speed competition. Some of the early legends of the game were actually the first skilled passers. Jim Thorpe, John Levi (who was said to have been able to pass the ball 100 yards...underhand!) along with Knute Rockne were all passers of note.
One interesting aspect at of the early game - that was eliminated in 1920 - was the "punt out" which occurred after a touchdown was scored. The scoring team would have one player stand on the goal line and punt the ball out, away from the goal line, to a waiting team-mate. Wherever he caught the ball was where the PAT would be tried from. But the try was nothing like it is today. The kicker would line up without ANY BLOCKERS in front of him, while the opposing team would line up on the goal line. When the referee gave the sign, the defense would come charging out, trying to block the kick while the kicker, still without blockers would try not to be distracted by the onrushing mob and make the kick.
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Post by blb on Dec 7, 2006 20:06:41 GMT -6
doc, Rockne played end at Notre Dame. His buddy Gus Dorais, who later coached several years at University of Detroit (before they dropped football), was the passer.
There are probably more recent volumes, but if you can find a copy, Good Clean Violence: A History of College Football by Ivan N. Kaye is a concisely-written tome on the development of the college game up to its publication in 1973.
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Post by fbdoc on Dec 7, 2006 20:20:31 GMT -6
Absolutely right! Was going to talk about both Rockne and Dorias - Got distracted and didn't credit the real QB.
From the Gus Dorais site:
Dorais (5-feet-7, 145), who arrived at Notre Dame from Chippewa Falls, Wis., in the summer of 1910, started four seasons for the Irish at quarterback, but it was during his senior season that he became part of college football history.
During the summer of 1913, Dorais and a Notre Dame teammate - Knute Rockne - worked as lifeguards and busboys at Cedar Point Resort in Sandusky, Ohio. During their free time there, the story goes, the duo practiced passing on the beach with Dorais throwing to Rockne, an end.
"We mastered the technique of catching the football with hands relaxed and tried to master the more difficult feat of catching it with one hand," Rockne later wrote.
The Irish, 17-1-3 in Dorais' first three seasons as a starter, outscored their first three opponents in 1913 by a margin of 169-7. On November 1, 1913, the Irish - still known mainly in the Midwest at the time despite just one loss in three seasons - traveled to West Point to face heavily-favored Army. Notre Dame's roster size? Eighteen players.
Although Dorais and Rockne are often credited with inventing the forward pass that day against the Cadets, the maneuver had been legal since 1906 - and had been used effectively as a weapon in several less high-profile situations and at less high-profile programs. Dorais first completed a pass to Rockne two seasons before.
But never before had there been a passing day like this.
Dorais, an Irish co-captain and the first Irish player named consensus All-America, completed 14 of 17 passes for 243 yards and three touchdowns that day. At the time, his 40-yard pass to Rockne was the longest pass ever completed, and after taking a 14-13 halftime lead, Notre Dame pulled away from a confused Army team for a 35-13 victory that changed the landscape of college football.
No longer were the Irish an obscure Midwestern power.
And no longer was the forward pass an obscure weapon, or little-used gimmick, something to be used when trailing late in games.
"The press and the football public hailed this new game, and Notre Dame received credit as the originator of a style of play that we simply systematized," Rockne said.
Dorais played for several professional teams, including the Massilon Tigers, before the NFL's 1920 inception. He coached Columbus - now Loras - College in Iowa to a 17-9-2 record from 1914-1917, and he also coached Loras' basketball team to a record of 29-17 during the same span.
Dorais spent two seasons as Rockne's assistant at Notre Dame, then was the head coach at Gonzaga University from 1920-1924 and Detroit University - where he also served as the athletics director - from 1925-1942.
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Post by gmccown on Dec 7, 2006 21:40:32 GMT -6
A few differences to note
Coaching from the sideline was agianst the rules. Coaches couldn't call plays or communicate with players in any way. Players could only be subed for once a game. If a player spoke to te coach he had to leave the field for the remainder of the game.
Coaches were basicly teachers who had little if any role on game day, the main job was to educate the on field signal caller on play selection, clock management, and overall strategy.
Most people have forgotten the "indian block" as well...basicly a full out flying leg whip at the knees or lower in the open field. Eventually progressed to become the cross body block.
Most teams back then were switching to the "modern" single wing for it's passing advantages...(imagine a day when the single wing was considered a passing offense)
The playcalling strategy of the day was extreamly different from modern thinking. If a team got the ball inside their own 20 it was highly common to punt on 1st or 2nd down from a normal offensive formation, trying to run more than two plays was considered bad strategy....most teams never called a pass unless they gained 8 yards on 1st down or were bettween the 40's. It was nearly unheard of to see passing or any form of reverse or trick play inside your opponents 30.
I'm by no means an expert on the matter but lately this has been a big area of research for me...what a facinating game and heritage! Now days most people lump all of the old "Single Wing" offenses into one category of "The Single Wing", but it's really amazing how many drasticly different versions of the offense were used. (Can I get a spell check..I've been typing all day and this is really bad..grrrr)
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Post by gmccown on Dec 7, 2006 21:47:43 GMT -6
I dabled in the SW two years ago...really loved it...gave people fits. Seemed to give them even more trouble than the double wing (we were primarily double wing based out of a single wing formation) It's 8th grade ball but you can see a few clips on my website. www.coachmccown.comI would post some formation pictures and diagrams on here if I could get it to work. There are a few diagrams on my website as well. |
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Post by wildcat on Dec 7, 2006 22:01:48 GMT -6
coach mccown -
Thanks for the information.
Nice website, by the way!
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Post by gmccown on Dec 8, 2006 6:56:42 GMT -6
Anytime...with a name like wildcat you gotta be one of the good guys! I appreciate the website feedback!
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Post by blb on Dec 8, 2006 7:20:51 GMT -6
If you're interested in football history at all you'll love the College Football Hall of Fame in South Bend. In addition to info on inductees, it's got all kinds of interesting memorabilia, a theater reproducing the "game day" experience, interactive activities, restaurant, gift shop, game field for young ones to run around on...it's great!
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Post by wildcat on Dec 8, 2006 8:07:08 GMT -6
If you're interested in football history at all you'll love the College Football Hall of Fame in South Bend. In addition to info on inductees, it's got all kinds of interesting memorabilia, a theater reproducing the "game day" experience, interactive activities, restaurant, gift shop, game field for young ones to run around on...it's great! blb - Might have to do that this summer...did the Pro Football HOF in Canton about ten years ago. |
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
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Post by tedseay on Dec 8, 2006 8:48:33 GMT -6
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Post by wildcat on Dec 8, 2006 9:00:14 GMT -6
Thanks, Ted. I know this is a passion of yours.
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Post by wingtol on Dec 8, 2006 9:11:06 GMT -6
"The kicker would line up without ANY BLOCKERS in front of him, while the opposing team would line up on the goal line. When the referee gave the sign, the defense would come charging out, trying to block the kick while the kicker, still without blockers would try not to be distracted by the onrushing mob and make the kick."
They need to bring this back!!! Would make the kicking game something I could actually enjoy!! Could you see one of those Gramatica brothers doing this as the entire D of another team ran at them full speed? I would pay to see that!!!!
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Post by fbdoc on Dec 8, 2006 9:19:12 GMT -6
Really sounds like something that might have taken place in the XFL!
As the "Tight T" began to give way to the early versions of the single wing, offenses really began to open up with faking, cross bucks, and the like. Some of the really old game films are very interesting to see how coaches would try to move the ball.
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Post by cc on Dec 8, 2006 9:19:31 GMT -6
wingtol...that is rugby basically. On the "extra point" the defenders can rush from the goalline to try to block it. But the ball is teed up so it rarely happens.
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Post by wingt74 on Dec 8, 2006 13:10:06 GMT -6
Eliminate place kicking.
go for it or punt.
2 pt conversions on
Then football would be perfect
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Post by MalcolmRobinson on Dec 12, 2006 1:21:10 GMT -6
Great stuff!
Thanks for the football history sites, too.
This has intrigued me for a long time. I have this idea that a documentray made for TV type movie would be very intersting. Principally it would be a who's who of early American football (college game), with the development of the Xs & Os and who made what famous.
Of course, there is sooo much to cover, the darn thing might run for days. Getting the data condensed and in a cogent form might be a daunting task. But it would besomething I'd be willing to pay a reasonabbe price to have.
Now, if there were enough people who wanted the same thing - we might get it done.
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