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Post by bigdaddyd on Dec 18, 2005 23:01:34 GMT -6
Coaches,
I was wondering , how many plays do you have in your offensive system? Is having to few plays setting yourself up for failure as the season progresses?
I 'm working on our new play book, I'll be taking the rains over as the OC. I don't want to have to many plays. I was thinking more on the lines of working a specific number of plays and rep them ...and rep them...
until the players know them like the back of their hands.
The number of plays I have so far are about 20 solid run and pass plays. I was thinking of running 3 formations pro-I, Pistol, and a double tight look.
Any suggestions?
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Post by tog on Dec 18, 2005 23:03:56 GMT -6
can you break it down into run and pass
also into concepts?
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Post by bigdaddyd on Dec 18, 2005 23:16:47 GMT -6
Run plays:
26/27 power
31/32 iso
21/22/23/24/26/27 blast
23/24/26/27 counter trap
26/27 counter trey
28/29 toss
28/29 Option
Pass plays:
Power Pass lt/rt
Screen pass lt/rt
Waggle pass lt/rt
Swing pass lt/rt
and 3 pass plays off our passing tree.
This is what I have so far, and its obviously more then 20 plays... every time I make a play list, the number of plays always increases...
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Post by tog on Dec 18, 2005 23:22:11 GMT -6
what is the difference in your terminology between blast and iso?
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Post by bigdaddyd on Dec 18, 2005 23:25:53 GMT -6
Blast- FB leads through the hole called blocks for TB.
Iso- FB gets the ball TB fakes power.
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Post by tog on Dec 18, 2005 23:44:12 GMT -6
with the guys I have at ol and the types of defenses we see that 1. move, mug, stem, show a lot, 2. get in different looks every play, 3. have athletes that are just plain better than mine
for our guys, that would be too much
we could probably get the x and o's of who to block most of the time, but i don't think we would be doing fundies enough to be any good at it
why do you need so many variations on the same play? I know each one will change blocking rules to some degree
why not just a b gap counter, a trap, toss, power, blast?
the main problem with rule blocked stuff is the complexity of defenses these days making the rules fall into gray areas that force OL to think, instead of just react
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Post by bigdaddyd on Dec 18, 2005 23:55:28 GMT -6
valid point...
Our rules for blocking are simple.
Head up/gap down/Linebacker
**If we run left you block rt
**If we run right you block lt
By having specific numbers, we can attack any gap or area we want too.
How do you teach them your blocking scheme?
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Post by tog on Dec 19, 2005 7:11:51 GMT -6
those rules woulnd't really work on blast would they?
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Post by thurman on Dec 19, 2005 8:21:31 GMT -6
Coach are you a Wing-T guy? Those plays and the blocking rules sound like Wing-T. You actually can block blast or ISO like that..
On, Gap, Down, Backer.. If we are running Blast right.. we have a 2 and a 6.. well those are gap defenders.. so we block them..
If there was a TE to that side then the TE would get the on man... tackle would go have no on, no gap, no down, and would go to backer.. say mike backer..
As far as plays.. well I have over 250 in the arsenal.. but as far as how many I may bring out in a year depends on how well the players are picking things up.. and on how much offense I think we need.. If a certain play is getting big numbers for us.. I might want to add in more complement plays off that...
Any given week I may have 50 plays at my disposal..
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Post by coachnorm on Dec 19, 2005 8:42:08 GMT -6
I've always been drawn to the concept of running 6 plays to perfection. I've never done it, but I've always been drawn to the concept.
I think the other coaches are right in saying that the number of plays is dependant on your team and their capacity to both learn and execute. You will be better off if you teach the plays in a series first. Get one series down tight before you move on to another. I f that means you only have a portion of your offense in for the first game, then so be it.
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Post by tog on Dec 19, 2005 8:49:08 GMT -6
how do they know who to combo up to? with those rules?
maybe I just come from a totally different background
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Post by Mav on Dec 19, 2005 9:09:41 GMT -6
I suggest you only have 1 Blast and 1 Cntr Trap play, then teach your line how to call and execute both the 'wide' and 'tight' versions of each. With the constant realignment of todays fronts, this approach will keep you from forcing your players to run a play into a hole where you're out leveraged. In fact, we teach our line how to call wide or tight on almost every play we run. It all depends on the blocking angles they see pre snap. This is called out so all of our backs can reconfirm what hole they'll be running through. This approach falls under the philosophy of 'catch a fish for them and feed them for a day; teach them how to fish and feed them for a lifetime'
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Post by tog on Dec 19, 2005 9:12:13 GMT -6
since I am more of a zone/landmark guy, i am stepping out of this conversation
wing t guys, have fun
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Post by Mav on Dec 19, 2005 9:36:57 GMT -6
We're not a wing-t team, we run a multiple 2 back offense (I, Divide, Offset). But of course our blocking concepts are similar to wingt -- all about blocking angles. We also incorporate basic zone principles for double teams -- where a wingt team will lead and post on a double team, we use the zone blocking/combo blocking rules.
Maybe this is a good time to explain the pros and cons of going with a zone blocking scheme. Sounds like he's starting from scratch.
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Post by firebird on Dec 19, 2005 15:05:49 GMT -6
This reminds me of my high school days. My 9th-11th grade years we must have had 50-60 plays and 20 formations. We would run every play we had (iso, trap, counter, blast, etc.) to every gap, necessitating slightly different blocking schemes for each gap. We also had a play action pass off each run to each hole and a number of drop back passes. On defense we ran every scheme under the sun (5-2, 5-3, 4-3) with any number of coverages and blitz schemes. Needless to say our offense looked extremely impressive in the playboook but like crap on the field. We went 1-9, 2-9, and 2-8 in those three years. The coach was finally fired.
My senior year a new coach came in with a new staff. We ran split back veer and probably had 6-8 plays in the playbook with 3 formations. We ran IV, OV, Speed Option, Load option and a few basic passes off veer playaction. On defense we played basic 4-4 Cover 3. We went 9-4, made the playoff's (for the first time in school history), and even made it to the state semi's before losing to the eventual champ (actually lost to them twice as they were from our conference). We spent very little time running "team" or scrimmaging, but spent the lion's share of our practice working fundamentals and getting extremely good at running our plays against any front, stunt, blitz, or coverage imaginable.
My first coach could have made a living on the clinic circuit. He knew and could talk about every football topic imaginable offense or defense. He could drop every name and use every "coachspeak" term in the book. And his teams never won (he did get another job after ours and proceded to run their program into the ground).
My 2nd coach knew three things: weights, veer, 4-4 defense. He was a great coach and proceeded to take my alma mater to 7 consecutive playoffs and 2 state championship games.
Lessons learned:
1. It' better to be good a few things than mediocre (or terrible) at a lot.
2. It's not what you know, it's what you can teach the kids and what they can execute in the heat of battle.
I always try to remember these two lessons when designing any game plan or drawing any new play. There are so many good schemes out there and so many different ways to move the football that it is easy to try to include way to much in your playbook.
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Post by coachnorm on Dec 20, 2005 8:26:45 GMT -6
Amen Firebird!
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Post by thurman on Dec 20, 2005 10:07:08 GMT -6
I agree with that... I hate when coaches try to do too much with too little.. I am a system guy.. I do all that I do off of my system.. My terminology is simple, but can be lengthy.. I dont say Pro I right 28 Toss... I just say I right Toss right.. Everything I do is contained within my system.. I use route trees.. both numbered and named.. so in essense in my offense once you learn the formations, motions, routes, and run plays.. you are set..
We have a team in our district that actually will run a different offense each week.. they did it last year.. and they did it this year.. shotgun.. Power I.. Wing-T.. Spread Jet... they finally settled in with the wing-t for the last 2 or 3 games.. but they must never get things right because each week they are working on another offense..
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Post by tog on Dec 20, 2005 11:41:02 GMT -6
I know of a somewhat famous coach in the Houston area whose jv teams would run the offense that they ran as scout team for the varsity that week.
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Post by coachnorm on Dec 20, 2005 13:48:02 GMT -6
We've always had better success when we could run a relatively small core of plays (10-15) well, and run them out of a great multitude of formations.
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Post by firebird on Dec 21, 2005 8:53:53 GMT -6
Tog,
We always used to joke about doing that, but never did. Even our JV kids used to say that we should do that because they knew the other teams offense and defense better than they knew ours because they had practiced it all week.
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Post by thurman on Dec 21, 2005 9:02:42 GMT -6
We played against a really wide open passing attack this year. We are a spread team, but we run the ball alot also.. We had a really good defense this year..
Our second team type guys were not that great and our JV suffered because most of them did not know their plays.. Well the week we played that team.. We ran the shotgun and I had their entire script printed out.. We move the ball consistently on our starting D.. lol.. Helped that one of our coaches played the QB.. but still...
If anyone wants that script its over 100 pages.. several repeats such as all curl and stuff.. but its got some good stuff..
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Post by Coach Huey on Dec 21, 2005 11:25:33 GMT -6
run plays or "schemes" in their most basic forms (i.e. lead, trap - regardless of who carries it, strong or weak, etc.)
inside zone
outside zone (toss it as well)
counter trey (guard/tackle)
counter F (guard, fullback)
lead
power
trap
draw
speed option
wedge
shovel & shovel option (we classify these as runs)
pass schemes (again, basic schemes but can really trick these up by formation & which players run specific routes)
quick --
all stop
all slant
fade (speed out by #2)
speed out (seam by #1)
slant-stop (arrow by #2)
dropback
smash
curl/flat
choice
deep out
dbl post
4 vertical
mesh
middle flood
switch
Y-sail
angle (WCO's "Texas" concept)
play-action
boot
waggle
naked
shallow cross (basically mesh)
tag a receiver (i.e. X-Post)
screens
bubble
tunnel
middle
slow
double
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Post by coachdawhip on Dec 21, 2005 13:41:22 GMT -6
Wing-T and I mixed together.
About 15 runs, I can't decide about the passes.
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Post by sls on Dec 21, 2005 16:53:41 GMT -6
Gun Spread:
1 Step Game:
Hitches, Slants, Arrow, Fades, Bubble
3 Step Game: Crossing, Smash
5 Step: Verticals
Middle Screen and Double Screen
Gun Veer, Midline, Speed, Tackle Trap, FB Trap, Kickout, Draw
An Underneath Package from Bone- Kickout and Veer
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Post by sls on Dec 21, 2005 16:55:12 GMT -6
I also agree with Coach Norm, run them from as many formations as you can think up.
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Post by knighter on Dec 22, 2005 10:06:31 GMT -6
i am a less is more guy....we have about 8 base runs both ways and 4 passes both ways usually off play action, we rep the hell out of them so we can adjust to anything we see defensively
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Post by bigdaddyd on Dec 22, 2005 23:04:37 GMT -6
knighter,
How effective was your offense this season? I too, like this approach, but I fear as the season progresses, teams will start to key on those 8 base runs and 4 passes. Do you run multiple formations to compliment these 8 base run plays and 4 pass plays?
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Post by lochness on Dec 23, 2005 7:36:45 GMT -6
Offensive “size” is a tough one because I’m probably guilty of having 1 or 2 rushing plays per week that I don’t need.
What we typically do is have 3-4 base rushing plays (in our case, Belly, Lead, Sweep, Zone) and 4-5 different blocking schemes (man, trap, G, pull, zone). We install these out of multiple formations and rep the heck out of them. Then we put complimentary plays in for each base play in a series concept as the season moves along. We combine base plays with different blocking schemes, and end up with what looks like a ton of different plays, but it’s really not that complicated. Our rushing offense looks like this
BELLY SERIES:
Belly
Belly Keeper
Belly Counter
Belly Handback
LEAD SERIES:
Lead
Lead Draw
Lead Counter
Lead Reverse
Lead Cross
SWEEP SERIES:
Sweep
Sweep Bootleg
Sweep Counter
ZONE SERIES:
Zone
Zone Stretch
Zone Toss
That’s 15 different rushing plays for the backfield. But, it’s not too complicated because each of the complimentary plays is built off of the base play. So, if they know the steps, landmarks, assignments of the base play, the complimentary play is easy.
Now, we can combine plays with blocking schemes. For example, we can “G” block the “Belly” play by calling “Belly G” or pull a guard on our “Lead” play by calling “Lead Pull.” Our FB trap play is the “Lead Cross Trap” The combinations are nearly endless, but to the kids (especially the OL), it’s all the same stuff. They just have to know which of the 4 or 5 schemes we have in they are running. We look like we have an infinite amount of stuff, but it’s really very contained and it gives us a ton of time to rep and to perfect.
When we combine this with tags like “Z fake” we can now fake counters and reverses while running the base play to give it an even more complex look. It’s all about compartmentalizing your system and making sure that everyone knows what part of the terminology talks to them and what it means.
For the passing game, we usually have 2 playaction passes off of each base play. So, we’ll have 2 Belly Passes, 2 Lead Passes, and 2 Waggle / Bootlegs off of sweep action. These plays pretty much stay the same the whole season. We will only add or modify if we need to because of coverage or a scouted weakness.
We’ll run mirrored 3-step routes to our receivers: Quick Slant, Quick Out, Quick Hitch, Quick Fade. We’ll also run a couple of combos, usually 2 or 3 that just combine these routes between 2 or 3 receivers (smash, short, etc.)
For dropback, we have 4 set plays that do not change all season. We have 2 combination / intermediates, 1 TE delay, and one combination / horizontal. Again, we’ll run them from different sets and with different motions, but they are pretty much the same every week. We may change a route to take advantage of a coverage, but that’s the extent of it.
We may have 1 screen if we are feeling ambitious.
This gives us a total of 15 rushing plays and 15-16 pass plays that we may have in by the middle of the season. We never go into a game with this entire package, but we know it well enough to execute it “on the fly” even if it wasn’t part of our original plan. We’ve been very good with this philosophy. In 2003 we set a school record for offensive production with this system. But I really believe the key is having a SYSTEM, ORGANIAING the installation, and COMPARTMENTALIZING assignments and terminology appropriately.
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