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Post by vassdiddy on Oct 16, 2007 19:36:10 GMT -6
Hey guys,
I had a question for you. I am coaching at a school that is wealthy, where the kids are rather spoiled and there is a lazy mentality. A lot of the kids don't play and sit at home and play video games. The ones that do come out, are usually lazy and don't want to work hard and give maximum effort. To top it all off, the parents don't really give a lot of support.
We have the one thing that most schools crave - money. And yet, we don't have the average support that high school football usually brings from the parents, admin, etc.
My question is, what is some advice for getting the kids more intense and to break their lazy habits. Also, any tips of getting the excitement up around the school and getting the parents more involved.
I know this is a hard question - I am sure some of you are at school who do not have a lot of money (or like me, I'm a poor graduate student) and are probably laughing like you would at a celebrity who seems to have it all, but who really have nothing. That's how I feel this program is - the rich celebrity with no soul, and even less dirt under their fingernails.
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Post by brophy on Oct 16, 2007 20:23:20 GMT -6
1) how do you get kids to love football?
2) If you saw your own practices (as a spectator), would you get excited? Would it get you amped up by the tempo it is being run at? (are the coaches excited?)
3) How do you build a program .....a positive peer-culture?
** at least the mothers likely look better AND they have $$$$
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Post by coachbdud on Oct 16, 2007 21:47:16 GMT -6
im sorry but just reading the title, affluent school woes kills me. Try thinking about the woes you would have at a poor school. I worry if half of my team will eat dinner tonight
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Post by vassdiddy on Oct 16, 2007 23:29:20 GMT -6
Coach... I understand what you are saying. I apologize about the title, and in fact changed it. That is why I put in my post about the reaction I would get. I feel like I am Paris Hilton's secretary and am looking for happiness tips for her.
I am not affluent at all - I am not used to this mentality. I feel bad for the schools like yours because I grew up around them. And although our problems are not as life or death as others, they are still problems. I know I am not going to gain any sympathy for the rich kids, but it is my job to fix it and I am having trouble. The fact is, our kids have the same real problems as lower socio-economic kids - broken homes, problem with authority, kids sleeping on park benches because they are being kicked out. However, the larger problem I have run into is the apathy surrounding the program. In most places, football is an escape and sometimes the only one. In ours, it's a trite little hobby that takes away from homework time, SAT prep, and extracurricular "rich kid activities" such as high stakes online poker that some of our kids engage.
Nevertheless, it is a problem and I am looking for answers, and I need some help. We are graduating alot of seniors, so we have a real chance this off-season to make a mark with the younger kids. My question is, how do I get a kid excited about running around in pads when his family owns a prominent Root Beer company!?
Anyway, I am rambling... Thanks for your help guys, and I am sorry if I am marginalizing other people's situations.
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Post by davecisar on Oct 17, 2007 6:14:05 GMT -6
YOu may want to contact a school like Dallas area Highland Park Scots. I doubt anywhere but Beverly Hills has more $ per acre. They have done quite well in football and may be able to give you some pointers.
Get advice from someone that is truely in your situation and has successfully dealt with the problem.
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Post by gacoach on Oct 17, 2007 6:34:37 GMT -6
It sounds like you need to start at the lower levels, whether it's the youth programs, middle school or your freshman teams. That is where you need to build the exitement. Does your program run any youth camps during the summer? That may be something you can look in to. I know that parents are always looking for camps, especially those with money, to occupy their kids time during the summer. This may be the start and solve some of your problems.
Gaining support and exitement about a program is a marathon and not a sprint.
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 17, 2007 6:39:28 GMT -6
Hey guys, I had a question for you. I am coaching at a school that is wealthy, where the kids are rather spoiled and there is a lazy mentality. A lot of the kids don't play and sit at home and play video games. The ones that do come out, are usually lazy and don't want to work hard and give maximum effort. To top it all off, the parents don't really give a lot of support. We have the one thing that most schools crave - money. And yet, we don't have the average support that high school football usually brings from the parents, admin, etc. My question is, what is some advice for getting the kids more intense and to break their lazy habits. Also, any tips of getting the excitement up around the school and getting the parents more involved. I know this is a hard question - I am sure some of you are at school who do not have a lot of money (or like me, I'm a poor graduate student) and are probably laughing like you would at a celebrity who seems to have it all, but who really have nothing. That's how I feel this program is - the rich celebrity with no soul, and even less dirt under their fingernails. "lazy" is a word I honestly do not like to use when describing kids in the classroom, wt room or football field, ...I prefer the term "lacks motivation" and in some cases "lacks discipline" so, while you cant make a kid "unlazy" you can certainly find ways to MOTIVATE AND DISCIPLINE them. That to me is the real key. IF winning isnt enough to motivate then perhaps the kids dont believe that they have a chance to win and you need to make them feel they have a chance. Investment in the off season and during practices inseason can change a players performance on the field. |
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 17, 2007 6:44:45 GMT -6
anyhow, some suggestions (so not to answer your question with more questions )
1) all drills can have a competition and a consequence for losing. extra conditioning (updowns, hills, bellies) can be a way to "motivate"...trust me
2) all rules broken, practices missed, drills missed results in make up conditioning...suddenly it all becomes important.
lazy= not properly motivated.
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Post by casec11 on Oct 17, 2007 6:59:24 GMT -6
I coach 12 and 13 yr olds in a city where I have an small amount of kids, but an even mix of "poor & rich".
One thing I noticed is, of the two hardest workers on the team one is from the wealthiest family and and the other I hope will eat dinner.... the same is true for the the two who slack.
What I am saying is, I think it does not matter about their economic background, you have to find a way to get the competitive juices flowing. BROPHYS #2 Try to make practice more competitive, this may breed excitement in the kids at first then into the parents.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 17, 2007 7:37:04 GMT -6
having had some experience at a prominent private school (15,000 a year tuition...alma mater of two NFL first 1 round pick brother qb tandem), I found that the kids were pretty hard working BECAUSE of their backgrounds. Most people don't accidentally become affluent. If you look at the top execs....there is usually a reason for it..stellar grades, standard 70 hour work weeks, etc.
HOWEVER, the difference is that for these guys (and parents), WHILE competing and winning was important, football was NOT the most important thing. There was no "these are going to be the best days of your lives" mentality...things such as trips to Europe...civic leadership activities etc were equally important.
Look for another affluent school in the area..and try to start a rivalry....
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Post by spartancoach on Oct 17, 2007 9:36:39 GMT -6
I have all the answers. Have your program send me a check for $5000 (or just buy me a box of mouthpieces) and I'll fix all your problems.
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Post by Coach Huey on Oct 17, 2007 9:44:10 GMT -6
honestly ... most of the affluent schools i've been associated with or have played, visited, etc are NOT lazy. They are actually quite motivated to be successful because mom/dad are successful. college is just expected... making something of themselves, striving to do well, etc. are all typically qualities they have because those qualities are probably what made parents successful. of course, exceptions exist everywhere. highland park was mentioned... another suburub of dallas is southlake carroll (maybe you've heard of them ... lol)... katy, the woodlands ... all of these schools are highly affluent here in texas are are among the state & country's top tier teams. i know i'm adding nothing to the topic  ... but, if i had my choice, i would prefer to teach/coach in an affluent suburb of a major city --- |
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Post by vassdiddy on Oct 17, 2007 14:24:13 GMT -6
I have all the answers. Have your program send me a check for $5000 (or just buy me a box of mouthpieces) and I'll fix all your problems. Wow... that is pretty cool. I'll make sure to use that same response if you ever have a question. I don't know if you really read my post - the part about where I haven't grown up with this. But thanks for your input - I really appreciate it! |
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Post by vassdiddy on Oct 17, 2007 14:26:18 GMT -6
honestly ... most of the affluent schools i've been associated with or have played, visited, etc are NOT lazy. They are actually quite motivated to be successful because mom/dad are successful. college is just expected... making something of themselves, striving to do well, etc. are all typically qualities they have because those qualities are probably what made parents successful. of course, exceptions exist everywhere. highland park was mentioned... another suburub of dallas is southlake carroll (maybe you've heard of them ... lol)... katy, the woodlands ... all of these schools are highly affluent here in texas are are among the state & country's top tier teams. i know i'm adding nothing to the topic ... but, if i had my choice, i would prefer to teach/coach in an affluent suburb of a major city --- Some have good work ethic, but it isn't for football. I have found on my team, the wealthier the kid, the less motivated they are. We have a handful of blue collar types on the team, and they are the hardest workers - always want to be in the weightroom. The sickening part is, the richer, less motivated kids, are by nature's sick joke, the most talented  |
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Post by calicoachh on Oct 17, 2007 15:05:31 GMT -6
Get the kids to buy into what you are doing. Just like any program, it starts in the weight room. You can "teach" them how to work hard. Once they buy in, they will get excited and then the parents will get on board as well.
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 17, 2007 16:28:07 GMT -6
IM going to add another thing, dont tolerate the "lazy" attitude or work ethic, if you do, you are encouraging it. simply state your expectations clearly, define what you are looking for and insist upon it. Wooden used to teach his basketball players how to tie their shoes, shoot most football teams I see have kids wearing different colored socks and underarmour, somewhere the coaches are at fault for things that have soured.
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Post by dsqa on Oct 17, 2007 16:43:09 GMT -6
Worked with over privileged, under worked kids my entire Head Coaching career. Some of the smartest, best kids I have come in contact with as a whole. Like Coach Huey said...
A problem I ran into with the unmotivated was that they often lack a basic maturity, or sense of manhood and responsibility in their character. They are good kids basically, but their sense of leading others is weak, weak, weak. I couldn't get a good breakdown out of them for a whole season - EVEN ON GAME DAYS. (For many of them, I knew it was hard to cheer when their sphincter was frozen shut.)
One of my assistant coaches once said of working with these kids, "Coach, you spend half the time playing Dr. Phil, and half coaching." That was a bit of an over statement, but if I wanted to stay, I had to go get them and bring them along.
I know this sounds basic, but generally speaking, their lack of motivation comes from their poor assessment of their experience.
A few different types of kids I have run into:
If it isn't entertaining, they get bored with it, because, of course, it is about them. Warn them, Challenge them, then Run them.
Or, they are so over stimulated with opportunity for "fun", that looking forward to anything that involves really hard work, even if they will benefit, isn't something they will show emotion for. Just let them be on the outward emotion thing. Change what you look for. They may be trying very hard, and just not be very good, and they are beating themselves up over it inside. Read your kids - that isn't motivation, that's self-condemnation. I got good at reading kids, and was able to get them back all the time, with a simple chat during a water break, or a switch up of personnel to let them cool down. OR, I would keep them in the drill until they got it. Each one is different, you have to read them.
Or, they are extremely intellligent, and the idea of cultivating animalistic tendencies, and tapping into their assertiveness, is just beyond their basic sensibilities. They just have no concept of it. They haven't had to fight for anything in their lives. In order to reach these guys, you have to find a moment to explain it to them. They are starved for a good reason, and without it, they will take a beating. On the other hand, a simple intellectual explanation, has resulted in vicious hits that showed no more emotion than the previous, they just understand now. That is coaching.
Or, they are just intimidated. They will mask it in a jaded arrogance, or smug reaction to things. It is their version of staying "cool." Here again, their basic immaturity, coupled with their lack of physical development (weight training,etc), just leaves them posing. Play to their arrogance, put them up first in hitting drills. Put them up against the toughest guys on the team. Play it up, and encourage it, and in the background just hope the beating they are taking really is producing something. Unfortunately, it doesn't always, but they don't trash talk much after that hit.
This is the culture they live in. It isn't right, wrong, whatever, it just is. This is who you coach. Coach them. You need to know your kids.
Now, I had a few kids that made it all worth it. They got it. Understood it, and regularly communicated apologies for the weak minded kids among them, hoping I wouldn't quit on them. They are the ones I think about and smile, as all of us do, but the rest require you to be a better coach, not a better talker.
This isn't something to complain about, it is something to be understood, just like it is incumbent on a coach to understand a kid's poverty. It isn't what we want, but we have to deal with what it.
Here are some responses I used regularly:
If they had to miss practice and it was out of my hands: "Hey, this is your team, your friends. You have to miss, you are putting them in a position to have to make up for you. Do what you have to, but understand on Friday night, this will cost your team, not me. You will run makeups, but there is no makeup for not making this a priority." I know it sounds like a guilt trip, but it wasn't communicated that way. I genuinely worked to help them understand the problem with their absence.
Parents and Kids in this context, DO NOT CARE, or understand how one practice will hurt the team, they really, really just don't care. The player believes they already know what you want, they are too immature, and marginally committed to understand the cost. To run them in a punishment context is to only confirm to them, this isn't where they want to be. I am not saying you don't give makeup conditioning, but you have to educate them and inspire them to be better men, and be there. I always tried to win their hearts, not just their heads. It may be too idealistic, but the more kids who played with their hearts on Friday, we won more games. That takes time to win, and you have to talk to them to get that. No way around it.
If they were sheepish, or passive, in a hit: Pull them aside, keep the drill going, speak under your breath, "There isn't anyone on this field who understands more than I do, how much that hurts to do that. It is something over 90% of teenagers will never feel. But, as bad as it hurts, I need you to find a reason to get up off the ground, and accelerate on the next rep. Tell me why you need to do it harder? Why does it matter?" Get them to say it. Get them to buy in. They really are afraid. They really are crying. It really does hurt them. They don't know pain all that much, it isn't on them for being raised so weak, so don't berate them. Inspire them to play through it. I trained over 90 kids through their "football diapers" in an over privileged environment, and I don't remember one, who at some point, wasn't fighting back tears, or was overwhelmed. My own sons have both gone through it, and it was hard work. My freshman son "quit" 4 times after games because he was just so emotional. Now, he is lighting it up and trucking people. Stay with it, and coach'em up.
For an athlete who won't give you a good effort: Pull him aside, "You okay? Something outside of football bothering you today? Any bad news, girlfriend dump you? Okay, anything I said, or the coaches? Do you understand what we are trying to do right now?
Okay, then since you said no to all of this, I am just going to assume you think it is okay to disrespect my leadership and this team, by giving a horrible effort. Is that right? - They say something like a mumbled NO...then tell them, next time I see you dog this drill I will publicly humiliate you, the way you are publicly humiliating me and this team. Got it? You go soft, I go public. Period."
Make it your life's ambition following an effort to motivate an athlete, who responds and comes your way, delivering in the smallest measure, to ENCOURAGE THAT ATHLETE LOUDLY AND PUBLICLY AND DEMONSTRATIVELY. Condition them to positive reinforcement.
If the team is not motivated, understand these kids don't have the discipline of their emotions. You will know before you start, what their mindset is. Be willing to shift what you are doing in your practice to bring them back. It doesn't always have to be discipline, weren't you ever bored in a HS practice? I don't care how good a coach you are, everybody struggles. I even got bored at some of my own practices, for pete's sake.
I often told them that if they didn't give me a great effort we would just hit all day. The ones who were going hard already, loved it. The ones who were struggling, got pasted for their lack of commitment. I was a satisfied coach.
I just found that working with young men like this, and it is true anywhere you go, each day is different, so you have to be ready to mix it up at a moment's notice. Inflexibility and a lack of creativity can hurt your progress with kids.
Keep your plan, but plan your backup plan, and have a third one in your hip pocket. That is true as HC, and a position coach. You are dealing with kids, and go figure, you are not the most important thing in their life.
Sorry so long, just got me remembering those moments...
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Post by wildcat on Oct 17, 2007 18:31:43 GMT -6
I think it comes down to YOUR expectations and it does not matter in the least if the kids are affluent or not.
I went to a big, suburban high school. A cheap house is going to cost you about $300,000 in the city I grew up in. School had about 2500 kids...lilly-white, upper-middle class to flat-out crazy rich (had MANY classmates get brand-new sports cars for their 16th birthdays and stuff like that).
Anyway, we were very good in football. We worked hard year round and the BIGGEST reason is that our coaches set high expectations for us and would not settle for anything less. They would not make excuses for guys on the team who weren't pulling their weight.
Fast forward 15 years and I am coaching at a school that is completely different...40% minority population (African American and Hispanic), 60% of the kids receiving free lunches, lots of single-parent households, etc, etc. This summer, we made excuses for the kids when they didn't come to lift. We made excuses for the kids when they missed practice. We made excuses for the kids when they did not perform. The result is that we are in the last week of our season, we are already knocked out of the playoffs, and, at best, we will finish 4-5 and will probably finish 3-6 or 2-7 next year unless drastic changes are made.
So, what it comes down to is expectations. If you set the expectations low, then you shouldn't be surprised when that is all the kids accomplish. It is human nature to take the path of least resistance. When the kids look around and they see that their teammates are not being held to a high standard, then there is no incentive to do anything more than show up and breathe.
On the other hand, if you have high standards and expectations for the kids and their is accountability built into the program, that is going to foster a work ethic and competition.
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Post by vassdiddy on Oct 18, 2007 3:54:47 GMT -6
Worked with over privileged, under worked kids my entire Head Coaching career. Some of the smartest, best kids I have come in contact with as a whole. Like Coach Huey said... A problem I ran into with the unmotivated was that they often lack a basic maturity, or sense of manhood and responsibility in their character. They are good kids basically, but their sense of leading others is weak, weak, weak. I couldn't get a good breakdown out of them for a whole season - EVEN ON GAME DAYS. (For many of them, I knew it was hard to cheer when their sphincter was frozen shut.) One of my assistant coaches once said of working with these kids, "Coach, you spend half the time playing Dr. Phil, and half coaching." That was a bit of an over statement, but if I wanted to stay, I had to go get them and bring them along. I know this sounds basic, but generally speaking, their lack of motivation comes from their poor assessment of their experience. A few different types of kids I have run into: If it isn't entertaining, they get bored with it, because, of course, it is about them. Warn them, Challenge them, then Run them. Or, they are so over stimulated with opportunity for "fun", that looking forward to anything that involves really hard work, even if they will benefit, isn't something they will show emotion for. Just let them be on the outward emotion thing. Change what you look for. They may be trying very hard, and just not be very good, and they are beating themselves up over it inside. Read your kids - that isn't motivation, that's self-condemnation. I got good at reading kids, and was able to get them back all the time, with a simple chat during a water break, or a switch up of personnel to let them cool down. OR, I would keep them in the drill until they got it. Each one is different, you have to read them. Or, they are extremely intellligent, and the idea of cultivating animalistic tendencies, and tapping into their assertiveness, is just beyond their basic sensibilities. They just have no concept of it. They haven't had to fight for anything in their lives. In order to reach these guys, you have to find a moment to explain it to them. They are starved for a good reason, and without it, they will take a beating. On the other hand, a simple intellectual explanation, has resulted in vicious hits that showed no more emotion than the previous, they just understand now. That is coaching. Or, they are just intimidated. They will mask it in a jaded arrogance, or smug reaction to things. It is their version of staying "cool." Here again, their basic immaturity, coupled with their lack of physical development (weight training,etc), just leaves them posing. Play to their arrogance, put them up first in hitting drills. Put them up against the toughest guys on the team. Play it up, and encourage it, and in the background just hope the beating they are taking really is producing something. Unfortunately, it doesn't always, but they don't trash talk much after that hit. This is the culture they live in. It isn't right, wrong, whatever, it just is. This is who you coach. Coach them. You need to know your kids. Now, I had a few kids that made it all worth it. They got it. Understood it, and regularly communicated apologies for the weak minded kids among them, hoping I wouldn't quit on them. They are the ones I think about and smile, as all of us do, but the rest require you to be a better coach, not a better talker. This isn't something to complain about, it is something to be understood, just like it is incumbent on a coach to understand a kid's poverty. It isn't what we want, but we have to deal with what it. Here are some responses I used regularly: If they had to miss practice and it was out of my hands: "Hey, this is your team, your friends. You have to miss, you are putting them in a position to have to make up for you. Do what you have to, but understand on Friday night, this will cost your team, not me. You will run makeups, but there is no makeup for not making this a priority." I know it sounds like a guilt trip, but it wasn't communicated that way. I genuinely worked to help them understand the problem with their absence. Parents and Kids in this context, DO NOT CARE, or understand how one practice will hurt the team, they really, really just don't care. The player believes they already know what you want, they are too immature, and marginally committed to understand the cost. To run them in a punishment context is to only confirm to them, this isn't where they want to be. I am not saying you don't give makeup conditioning, but you have to educate them and inspire them to be better men, and be there. I always tried to win their hearts, not just their heads. It may be too idealistic, but the more kids who played with their hearts on Friday, we won more games. That takes time to win, and you have to talk to them to get that. No way around it. If they were sheepish, or passive, in a hit: Pull them aside, keep the drill going, speak under your breath, "There isn't anyone on this field who understands more than I do, how much that hurts to do that. It is something over 90% of teenagers will never feel. But, as bad as it hurts, I need you to find a reason to get up off the ground, and accelerate on the next rep. Tell me why you need to do it harder? Why does it matter?" Get them to say it. Get them to buy in. They really are afraid. They really are crying. It really does hurt them. They don't know pain all that much, it isn't on them for being raised so weak, so don't berate them. Inspire them to play through it. I trained over 90 kids through their "football diapers" in an over privileged environment, and I don't remember one, who at some point, wasn't fighting back tears, or was overwhelmed. My own sons have both gone through it, and it was hard work. My freshman son "quit" 4 times after games because he was just so emotional. Now, he is lighting it up and trucking people. Stay with it, and coach'em up. For an athlete who won't give you a good effort: Pull him aside, "You okay? Something outside of football bothering you today? Any bad news, girlfriend dump you? Okay, anything I said, or the coaches? Do you understand what we are trying to do right now? Okay, then since you said no to all of this, I am just going to assume you think it is okay to disrespect my leadership and this team, by giving a horrible effort. Is that right? - They say something like a mumbled NO...then tell them, next time I see you dog this drill I will publicly humiliate you, the way you are publicly humiliating me and this team. Got it? You go soft, I go public. Period." Make it your life's ambition following an effort to motivate an athlete, who responds and comes your way, delivering in the smallest measure, to ENCOURAGE THAT ATHLETE LOUDLY AND PUBLICLY AND DEMONSTRATIVELY. Condition them to positive reinforcement. If the team is not motivated, understand these kids don't have the discipline of their emotions. You will know before you start, what their mindset is. Be willing to shift what you are doing in your practice to bring them back. It doesn't always have to be discipline, weren't you ever bored in a HS practice? I don't care how good a coach you are, everybody struggles. I even got bored at some of my own practices, for pete's sake. I often told them that if they didn't give me a great effort we would just hit all day. The ones who were going hard already, loved it. The ones who were struggling, got pasted for their lack of commitment. I was a satisfied coach. I just found that working with young men like this, and it is true anywhere you go, each day is different, so you have to be ready to mix it up at a moment's notice. Inflexibility and a lack of creativity can hurt your progress with kids. Keep your plan, but plan your backup plan, and have a third one in your hip pocket. That is true as HC, and a position coach. You are dealing with kids, and go figure, you are not the most important thing in their life. Sorry so long, just got me remembering those moments... One of the best posts ever on this board! |
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... but, if i had my choice, i would prefer to teach/coach in an affluent suburb of a major city ---
