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Post by tothehouse on Oct 15, 2007 12:44:29 GMT -6
We have coaches on our staff that really like their position players that they coach. I'm all for building relationships with the players. In fact, believe it or not, I named my two boys after former players of mine.
But, do you ever find that some coaches are blinded by the fact that "their" players (starters) aren't getting the job done and need to be sat or rotated?
Here is what I did. I spent a good portion of yesterday watching our game from Friday. I broke down every play and every position (defensively). As the DC I felt it necessary to do this (I can't every week because I'm also doing everything with our filmwork...our cut ups, opponent film(s), etc.). We ususally breakdown ourselves by getting reports from each position coach. I decided to break the game down myself to see which coach...A) didn't know what he was talking B) tried to defend his position players poor performance.
Kind of predictable what happened. The newer coach on the staff thought one of his rotating players "played well" when I had him not doing the right thing about 80% of his plays. And the coach who defends his players by saying, "I'll take of my spot and you take care of yours" didn't say much after reading what I put down.
Now, we'll easily take care of this. Both guys are good guys, but I believe they are blinded by the fact that they like their players as people, but forget that we NEED to get the PLAYER of their player OUT OF THEM. "I don't need 17 old friends"......I need guys who will go to battle for me, their brother next to them, etc.
Thoughts.
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Post by CVBears on Oct 15, 2007 12:59:58 GMT -6
I have a few instances like that with WR's and DB's. We have some speedsters in these positions and sometimes they depend on their speed rather than take care of their technique. It took me a bit to figure everything out, but once I knew what to look for, it became easier to identify. Once it is identified, I hammer the technique, slow it down, bird dog it, etc. I pull out the starter and let the back up take care of the technique. Chances are the backup is chomping at the bit to play and will do his best to do the technique the right way. praise the crap out of him when he does the technique correctly. if it's in a loud enough voice, everyone knows what's going on what what is supposed to happen.
not exactly you situation, but something that I have been dealing with for a couple of weeks now.
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Post by los on Oct 15, 2007 13:18:55 GMT -6
Yes, I agree with you House! And don't forget the scenario of an injured starter trying to play hurt and maybe not getting the job done as well as a healthy back-up? Its the same deal as having a job in any (profit/winning oriented) organization, its yours as long as you earn it every week! My boss respects me, like his own dad, but if I wasn't getting the job done, he'd replace me like a worn out tire. Simple as that! Its part of being in management, and thats what coach's are no?  |
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Post by fbdoc on Oct 15, 2007 16:27:56 GMT -6
As the DC, isn't your "opinion" worth a little bit more than the position coach? I'm sure you're not trying to blindside your coaches but they should be able to "see" what you see on the same film. I don't envy you that situation - we had it ourselves 2 weeks ago with QB play. Finally had to make a HC decision. New kid went 7 for 12, 205 yards, 2 TDs, and 0 ints. and WON the game! Nuff said.
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Post by brophy on Oct 15, 2007 17:17:06 GMT -6
it all comes back to "HOW DO YOU QUANTIFY PERFORMANCE"?
Is there a specific responsibility / assignment / technique they are or are not doing, based on what the staff has taught them?
(Rather than 'just make a play'?)
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Post by tigercoach on Oct 15, 2007 19:40:24 GMT -6
The difference between coaching with your heart and coaching with your head.
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Post by los on Oct 15, 2007 20:02:27 GMT -6
Brophy makes a great point, How does a player know when they're doing a good job or not getting the job done. What are the guidelines? Besides were not winning  |
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moball
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Post by moball on Oct 15, 2007 20:23:53 GMT -6
Along the same lines as Brophy and LOS, do these two assistant coaches know exactly how you define success? If they're watching film and seeing one thing and you are seeing another there is a problem. For instance, your D-line coach might see his guys coming off the ball hard, using their hands, getting off of blocks, and pursuing the ball. You might see them doing all these things, but losing their gap control thereby destroying your defensive run fits. You and your position coaches can't just agree to disagree. Sit down and watch the film together and listen to them make their case, then explain to them what you want to see emphasized.
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Post by tothehouse on Oct 15, 2007 21:17:54 GMT -6
No, that has been taken care of moball. We communicate well. I am really talking about how long do you stay with a certain guy. The guy that has the physical stats (6'3" 230) vs. a little dude who makes plays. Guys seem to cling to the physical specimen.
Case in point. We have an unblockable NG. He is 5'5" 130lbs. with bricks IN his hands. Can't block him. The "starter" has good size and power cleaned a school record 345lbs. this spring. I bet the waterbug makes more plays than the other guy. We'll find out Friday cuz the waterbug is getting his chance.
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Post by brophy on Oct 16, 2007 5:48:25 GMT -6
who grades out higher? Its all about the bottom line (doing YOUR job)
we used to have a 6'4" 299 lbs DT/DE who is now playing at Iowa, but truth be told, he was more of a liability because he rarely did HIS job = we ended up getting BETTER production after replacing him with a 5'10", 195lbs Junior. Consistent performance is the only benchmark for starting.....otherwise, you don't know what you're going to get on a play.
Either they DID the job (you have taught them to do), or they DIDN'T
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 16, 2007 6:37:19 GMT -6
We have coaches on our staff that really like their position players that they coach. I'm all for building relationships with the players. In fact, believe it or not, I named my two boys after former players of mine. But, do you ever find that some coaches are blinded by the fact that "their" players (starters) aren't getting the job done and need to be sat or rotated? Here is what I did. I spent a good portion of yesterday watching our game from Friday. I broke down every play and every position (defensively). As the DC I felt it necessary to do this (I can't every week because I'm also doing everything with our filmwork...our cut ups, opponent film(s), etc.). We ususally breakdown ourselves by getting reports from each position coach. I decided to break the game down myself to see which coach...A) didn't know what he was talking B) tried to defend his position players poor performance. Kind of predictable what happened. The newer coach on the staff thought one of his rotating players "played well" when I had him not doing the right thing about 80% of his plays. And the coach who defends his players by saying, "I'll take of my spot and you take care of yours" didn't say much after reading what I put down. Now, we'll easily take care of this. Both guys are good guys, but I believe they are blinded by the fact that they like their players as people, but forget that we NEED to get the PLAYER of their player OUT OF THEM. "I don't need 17 old friends"......I need guys who will go to battle for me, their brother next to them, etc. Thoughts. this is why staff should watch film together. some guys say they watch film but its obvious they dont. |
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Post by coachcb on Oct 16, 2007 8:53:39 GMT -6
Bottom line is cut and dry (as you know tth)- if the kid isn't getting the job done, then replace him. If this needs to be explained to his position coach, then so be it. However, I'd sit down with him and the watch the film; point out exactly what the kid isn't doing. This way they can move towards fixing the issues.
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Post by knight9299 on Oct 16, 2007 9:51:26 GMT -6
Goes the other way too. The varsity receivers/defensive backs coach last year thought the state champion high jumper was lazy in practice and would NOT play him. His reasoning was the player should have been SO much better if he practiced harder. As sophomore the kid caught anything that was in his area & none of our opponents threw anywhere near him. So this year we have a different receivers/defensive backs coach. This player in question has almost 900 yards receiving in 6 games. Like I said it can go both ways- I've seen it more this way.
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Post by tothehouse on Oct 16, 2007 10:51:59 GMT -6
The other part of this is figuring this out quickly. Here we are in week 7 (CA) and we're still making changes. Our great teams in the past had this stuff figured out about week 2 or 3. That is the beauty of coaching and giving chances to kids that deserve a shot. These guys are getting the shot this week.
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Post by gacoach on Oct 16, 2007 12:19:47 GMT -6
We moved a kid from FB yesterday to TE because our "starting" TE just wasn't getting the job done. I like the kid, but coaches get fired all the time because they play kids they like. It's not personal, it's part of my job to do what's best for our team.
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Post by coachcb on Oct 16, 2007 15:18:13 GMT -6
Personally, I get real upset when my bigger, more athletic kids don't get it done on the offensive and defensive lines. To me it shows that the kid either isn't paying attention to detail or they're just being lazy.
They have the physical tools and coaching to go out and get the job done- if they don't, I get angry and they lose their spot.
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Post by eickst on Oct 16, 2007 15:28:23 GMT -6
Goes the other way too. The varsity receivers/defensive backs coach last year thought the state champion high jumper was lazy in practice and would NOT play him. His reasoning was the player should have been SO much better if he practiced harder. As sophomore the kid caught anything that was in his area & none of our opponents threw anywhere near him. So this year we have a different receivers/defensive backs coach. This player in question has almost 900 yards receiving in 6 games. Like I said it can go both ways- I've seen it more this way. So do the other less gifted athletes get to sit out of practice and goof off and still play on Fridays? |
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Post by phantom on Oct 16, 2007 18:23:50 GMT -6
Goes the other way too. The varsity receivers/defensive backs coach last year thought the state champion high jumper was lazy in practice and would NOT play him. His reasoning was the player should have been SO much better if he practiced harder. As sophomore the kid caught anything that was in his area & none of our opponents threw anywhere near him. So this year we have a different receivers/defensive backs coach. This player in question has almost 900 yards receiving in 6 games. Like I said it can go both ways- I've seen it more this way. So do the other less gifted athletes get to sit out of practice and goof off and still play on Fridays? Where did he say that the kid did that? |
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Post by dubber on Oct 16, 2007 19:25:43 GMT -6
Coach is it possible that kids that probably should never see the field are looking good in practice due to kids with talent just going through motions? this is the bigger issue for me.............what to do with "gamers"..........if they produce more than a second team guy, but are lazy in practice, do you still play the 1st teamer? I say you play the first teamer, but you ride him like the town moped. |
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Post by brophy on Oct 16, 2007 20:17:54 GMT -6
So do the other less gifted athletes get to sit out of practice and goof off and still play on Fridays? Where did he say that the kid did that? coach made a good point (I coached with that guy, too)
Meaning, a position coach's prejudices can cloud how they are looking at starters. Some guys want to keep starting the slow kid at corner because he knows how to answer every question, but physically he is just out-matched, while the athlete who may not give the snap-to "yessirs" sits the bench. I'm jes sayin'
tth is the man, however I think I know why this is out of control
(and hear me now, believe me later)
Because there is no leadership.
Not saying you need Patton there, but somebody has to be LEADING, saying "THIS" is what we need for "X" and "THAT" is what we need for "Y". There shouldn't be any confusion on what you are doing on defense (IMO). Different opinions are okay, you want to run a different coverage? No problem....but
1) position coaches & coordinators with contrary (?) opinions to position requirements
2) no quantifiable way to evaluate performances
3) no clear directive of the pecking order - what exactly IS the chain-of-command?
-- if you don't set clear guidelines, parameters....how does anyone know if they are 'right'?
If there is no speed limit posted....what happens when you get pulled over for speeding? Claim BS?
I realize you are upset, but it sounds like you are projecting your frustrations on your assistants because you ALLOWED this to get way out of control. "You do your thing (without reproach)" is a helluva way to coordinate. Here is a question, why weren't you watching what the other positions were doing during scrimmages, practices, and the beginning games? Just a question, yo. You ARE the coordinator right (I don't want to assume). If you ARE the coordinator, either you are throwing your assistants under the bus, or you guys just don't communicate very weel (neither is good).
Leadership isn't a 'title' it is an attitude of doing the right thing, no matter the cost.
Maybe I'm in left field and have drunk too much, it is just what I read here. No offense (or defense, for that matter)> |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2007 19:25:24 GMT -6
I have one real legit corner, the other will be good in a year. I don't know if I'm blinded or not. I'm playing the bigger, faster, more athletic kid. The lesser athletic kid is a backup and a good one. He has great effort, plays with pain, etc. All the things you'd want in a player, but I think his pain affects him a bit in what he can do, and he is the most frustrating kid. Not very coachable and has a poor attitude toward me and toward the player in front of him.
But I can understand his frustrations in a way, because the starter isn't outstanding yet but occasionally does outstanding things.
So what it comes down to with the backup is this question: "what do you bring to the table that the other kid can't do?" The answer is he's more aggressive and a little tougher. I'm just not sure he should be part of the starting D.
Like Lou Holtz said, we dont' start the 11 best, we start the best 11.
Thoughts?
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Post by phantom on Oct 21, 2007 19:44:34 GMT -6
I have one real legit corner, the other will be good in a year. I don't know if I'm blinded or not. I'm playing the bigger, faster, more athletic kid. The lesser athletic kid is a backup and a good one. He has great effort, plays with pain, etc. All the things you'd want in a player, but I think his pain affects him a bit in what he can do, and he is the most frustrating kid. Not very coachable and has a poor attitude toward me and toward the player in front of him. But I can understand his frustrations in a way, because the starter isn't outstanding yet but occasionally does outstanding things. So what it comes down to with the backup is this question: "what do you bring to the table that the other kid can't do?" The answer is he's more aggressive and a little tougher. I'm just not sure he should be part of the starting D. Like Lou Holtz said, we dont' start the 11 best, we start the best 11. Thoughts? It sounds like the backup is a "Me" kid. I'd be careful about trusting him. |
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Post by tothehouse on Oct 21, 2007 23:24:05 GMT -6
Brophy - it's clear. We are playing the guys the HC and me determine are the guys. It is just, no matter what this guy has a hard on for his players. I like my guys too, but are they getting it done. And, we are playing the guys that are getting it done.
The topic is constantly brought up. Maybe we should do a parody of how much this coach likes this particular kid. We do skits and stuff...it should be a topic.
Oh, there is leadership Broph. It's there. It is not a problem that isn't taken care of. It's just some guys. Like I said, I like my guys....good kids.....but if it isn't happening we provide the challenge....like moving the starting running back to corner because the starter is a pu**y. Either the starting RB is going both ways or the other guy gets the message that he better step up. Like the guy, but he graded out like $hit on film.
Brophy...move to Cali and join the revolution. No hurricanes, just earthquakes here my friend.
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Post by goldenbear76 on Oct 22, 2007 0:58:42 GMT -6
Hey ToT,
gonna take a shot here. If you stepped back from the whole she-bang..and looked at it from a wide lens. Could a lot of your problems be from an offensive standpoint?
What I mean is ...maybe your defense is put in bad situations by the offense (turnovers, bad field position), which make the mistakes your having more glorified because they tend to be critical in terms of Points. A lot of problems that an offense or defense might be having now, (as opposed to years past) could be just a chaining effect from a lack of running game (as in years past) etc.
I've only seen 1 game of yours, and I have to say, your offensive line was much better last year imho. Which made your running game much better, which meant you were probably playing on defense with the lead a lot, and were able to do more things. I'm guessing if you looked at Time of possession from this year as opposed to last year, there is a great disparity. This also means opposing offenses are able to run more plays against your defense to find a weak spot, and still are in the game (as opposed to last year). I know you guys are well coached, and it very well could be just a bad year in terms of talent. Anyway ..i'm just bs'ing anyway. But you guys do have like a student body of 15,048 right? or you hit 16k yet? heh.
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Post by tothehouse on Oct 22, 2007 10:39:24 GMT -6
Golden boy....I am a "take a step back" guy. I'm only analyzing these coaches. In the offseason we'll address it more. In the meantime we'll (the HC and me) get the right guys on the field. We aren't in the "make you feel good" business. We are in the "play the right guy" business.
You can analyze the 07 season Bear. Yes, our O line is weak. And yes, the whole O line is NOW juniors. Let's hope to get a lot out of them this year and next year they might be killers.
Declining enrollement Bear...down to 2.1 million at the school
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Post by lsrood on Oct 22, 2007 11:11:09 GMT -6
tothehouse,
That explains why your stands looked so full on the televised game!
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