|
Post by coachdmyers on Jan 30, 2024 12:24:49 GMT -6
What is your guys' tell that a team is winning mainly because well coached vs having superior athletes than their opponents?
Or how do you see the balance of athletic talent vs coaching play out in a team's performance?
How do you all assess those qualities in a team? Are there particular tells, or details that you pick up on that make you go "that team is really well coached and playing above their talent level"? Or what do you see that suggests that a team is performing below the talent they have assembled?
Obviously a team can be well coached, and have superior athletes... that's not really what I'm asking about though.
|
|
|
Post by larrymoe on Jan 30, 2024 12:30:07 GMT -6
What is your guys' tell that a team is winning mainly because well coached vs having superior athletes than their opponents? Their HC is named Deion Sanders... I kid, I kid.
|
|
|
Post by powercounterandjet on Jan 30, 2024 13:03:08 GMT -6
I think each position group has its own tells. For OL, I'm checking on stance and alignment but most importantly how they pass set. Are they taking real pass sets or are they standing up and grabbing guys. Do they have technique or are they scrambling every set? Obviously not as applicable in Wing-T, Flexbone, etc but you can tell with different ways there. Run game wise do they look like they're running a scheme and concept or are they just blocking in all different directions whoevers closest...do they follow tracks, paths, assignments or are they hoping and guessing. I've found that most of the time if the OL is well-coached, the rest of the team is too and vice-versa.
|
|
|
Post by brophy on Jan 30, 2024 13:31:08 GMT -6
how do YOU? How do you evaluate any football? FUNDAMENTALSYou can grade ANY football team whether you know what scheme they run or not. stance,start,steps,effort,hustle,leverage,tackling/blocking Consistency is the major tell - are they EXECUTING (not performing) fundamentals every down or are they misfiring routinely?
|
|
|
Post by Defcord on Jan 30, 2024 14:16:27 GMT -6
Some of the teams we have played that were really talented and not so well coached tended to give up more big plays on defense, have more turnovers on offense and committed more personal fouls and presnap penalties.
Playing these teams drive me crazy because they typically can score in one play and make games close, but it beats playing a more talented team that is also well coached.
|
|
|
Post by cqmiller on Jan 30, 2024 14:30:44 GMT -6
I run an annual clinic and unfortunately we will get WAY MORE coaches roll into the clinic to see a guy who went 12-1 who had 5 or 6 division 1 athletes than will come see a guy who went 4-6 with absolutely no talent and literally had to coach his @ss off to get to 4 wins with the lack of talent they have. There are guys going 1-9 or 2-8 that should be coach of the year over some guys who go 9-1 or 10-0 every year. Don't know how to fix it on a large-scale, but I like meeting with guys who I know have coached up a team and almost upset a team they had no business playing against over guys who could have rolled the ball out and took a nap and their team would have won by 5 TDs anyway.
It's really all about the film... if you are watching a team you play try to run power against an inferior team and the inferior team squeezes it, spills it, and has a defender there to make the tackle, but the RB for the really good team is just a lot better than the unblocked defender and breaks that tackle and runs for 20, that is a well-coached team on defense, but the kid on offense is just better than the kids trying to tackle him.
There's so much more than W/L, points per game, points allowed per game, and things like that. Amazing how when NFL coaches have top-5 players at most key positions they are "geniuses", but if they have the bottom-5 plyers at a lot of spots, they are "dumb" and fired and looking for work.
Lions HC getting a lot of crap for going on 4th down this week... they didn't convert, so everyone gonna look at outcome and determine he's an idiot. If they convert either of the 2, they probably hold on and win. The result isn't always giving you accurate info that it was done right. I could close my eyes and it a 3... doesn't mean I should shoot with my eyes closed.
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on Jan 30, 2024 15:06:00 GMT -6
Some of the teams we have played that were really talented and not so well coached tended to give up more big plays on defense, have more turnovers on offense and committed more personal fouls and presnap penalties. Playing these teams drive me crazy because they typically can score in one play and make games close, but it beats playing a more talented team that is also well coached.
This. Sloppy teams with studs tend to be inconsistent in all three phases of the game. They'll win games and make up for the miscues with big plays. But, I don't think I've ever seen one of these teams win it all. They get knocked off in the play-offs by better-coached teams. Teams that may not be as talented but do the right things consistently.
|
|
|
Post by silkyice on Jan 30, 2024 15:11:35 GMT -6
What is your guys' tell that a team is winning mainly because well coached vs having superior athletes than their opponents? Their HC is named Deion Sanders... I kid, I kid. Dude, It is because of Taylor Swift. I thought we settled that already.
|
|
|
Post by blb on Jan 30, 2024 15:15:04 GMT -6
Lions HC getting a lot of crap for going on 4th down this week... they didn't convert, so everyone gonna look at outcome and determine he's an idiot. If they convert either of the 2, they probably hold on and win. The result isn't always giving you accurate info that it was done right. I could close my eyes and it a 3... doesn't mean I should shoot with my eyes closed. Lions "went for it" on 4th Down more than any other NFL team during regular season - 24 times. They converted 17 times (also most in League). Pretty good success rate. Should Campbell have changed who he is-what got Lions to NFC championship game? Just asking for all the experts who know (second-guessing) how it turned out. BTW I haven't read or heard anybody criticizing rookie Gibbs for having wrong arm up (left) when he fumbled that 1st Down handoff in 3rd Quarter.
|
|
|
Post by sweep26 on Jan 30, 2024 15:20:29 GMT -6
Consistent, precise, enthusiastic execution of fundamentals = Well Coached...it makes no difference: Offense, Defense or Special Teams.
If it is your team...Coach it, Grade it. Often referred to as AAR's (After Action Reviews) Game film and Practice film.
It is all about the details.
|
|
|
Post by jg78 on Jan 30, 2024 20:20:36 GMT -6
Good fundamentals and discipline with few penalties are a given for being well coached. I also think well coached teams are very intentional in what they do. It is clear that they have a system that they are executing and not just a "smorgasboard of plays," as my dad (a coach) liked to say.
We have all seen the teams with the 6'4'' WR who scores a TD by outjumping the opposing secondary. The RB who should have been tackled in the backfield but jukes a defender and outruns everyone else. When you see physical superiority and not much else, that's usually just talent.
Winning will always be mostly about the players. Sean Payton won a Super Bowl and got his ass torn up twice by a Pop Warner team called the Springtown Orange Porcupines running a Single Wing offense. I would take a random Huey coach with a great high school football team over Nick Saban with an average one.
|
|
|
Post by carookie on Jan 30, 2024 21:12:30 GMT -6
I know we all have athletic limits and natural baseline athletic abilities. But I've always felt part of being a good coach was developing better athletes.
Quality strength and speed programs are imperative, as is teaching proper change of direction and body movement. I cant tell you how many coaches I have seen never taught their athletes the right ways to run, move in space, change directions, etc.
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Jan 31, 2024 0:45:39 GMT -6
Teams that are great on defense but scuffle on offense has always been a huge red flag for me that the coaches are just rolling the ball out there because they have a bunch of really good athletes.
|
|
|
Post by s73 on Jan 31, 2024 7:57:23 GMT -6
Penalties, turnovers, busted plays, eyeball test etc and they still win = superior athletes.
Preciseness, pad level, execution, etc. & they still win OR over achieve = well coached in my mind.
|
|
|
Post by veerman on Jan 31, 2024 8:57:48 GMT -6
Superior Talent > Superior Coaching if the Gap of talent is too big. As far as what I look for? Defensive alignment and are kids in position to make the play. Offensively- blocking scheme- is everyone being blocked at point of attack, or accounted for (read). Sometimes you see these successful teams and they are not blocking someone on the perimeter on a outside play, but they go for a 60 yard TD cause their RB or whoever breaks a tackle or just outruns the force player to the edge and goes down the sideline. Other things to look for- unforced penalties (offsides, false starts, ect) The job of the coach is to increase your talent 1 standard deviation, great coaches can sometimes increase 2. But your not winning the Kentucky Derby riding a Jacka$$, I don't care who trains him or the jockey is...so there is always limitations on win/loss category.
|
|
|
Post by coachdmyers on Jan 31, 2024 10:24:02 GMT -6
This is some great feedback, thank you. One of the things I've looked for, and maybe you all can check me on this (and it's admittedly mainly about offense), is how many of their plays are successfully executed as drawn up?
So: is the QB going through a progression to find someone, or are they winging it, either by running around until someone is open or just taking off on their own. I mean, scramble drill is a thing, of course. But how often are they relying on that vs how the play is supposed to go. Same idea in the run game, is the back going to where they're supposed to go within the parameters of the play.
My thought is that if the plays are largely being executed as intended, then looking for the finer details and fundamentals makes sense.
Defensively, are they aligned in a way that makes sense based on the offensive formation. That, in high school at least, seems to be a huge tell. I don't know how often I watch film and see a team align and say to our staff "they can't/won't align like that against us, right?" Friday rolls around and sure enough, they're misaligned.
But yes, I agree with the points about doing the small things well and few penalties, etc. are good indicators as well.
I mention this as clinic season rolls around, and I saw this on another thread, the number of speakers that are there because they win with superior talent. I want to hear from the guys that overachieve, even (or maybe even especially) with a bad record, and how they do that.
|
|
|
Post by tripsclosed on Jan 31, 2024 11:44:23 GMT -6
IMO one of the biggest tells, that has been touched on several times in this thread, is looking at how many of their players are using good/proper technique vs how many are using bad/improper technique. If just 1 or 2 guys are using bad/improper technique, they may be a work in progress, but if nearly the whole team is bad, that indicates pretty obviously that they aren't well coached.
What's interesting too is when nearly the whole team is good but then one position group is bad, you know what the deal is there. Lol. Or, one side of the ball is locked down, but then the other side is a joke.
|
|
|
Post by groundchuck on Feb 1, 2024 9:10:34 GMT -6
Sometimes you can look at scheme. The well coached team might be doing the right things but the knife isn't cutting it in the gun fight. THe team full of superior athletes might be doing something that you look at and think how to they get away with that? Then you see their Jimmys and Joes. I think there are quite a few teams in my part of the country that get away with that.
On a zoomed in level I think that well coached teams line up right on defense and run to the ball, don't committ dumb penalties on offense, and play hard. YOu can tell on film and in person they work on special teams. Well coached teams no matter what the talent level are not beating themselves.
This was hit on earlier but I will also reiterate it. Proper technique.
I could say something like DL using hands. Which I feel is important. But there are several teams I would consider well coached on defense I have seen who don't realy use hands. They slant like crazy and avoid. This would be good techqnique for their scheme.
|
|
|
Post by brophy on Feb 1, 2024 10:00:04 GMT -6
the whole team is bad, that indicates pretty obviously that they aren't well coached. one position group is bad, you know what the deal is there. for me, its really glaring on defense. I can tell what I'm in for just on one play by watching their linebackers. They are technically going to be the best 'football players' on the field for that team and indicate what kind of investment they have in the run / pass game. I've seen poorly coached defenses where the line plays high, linebackers are running all over and not tackling and the DBs just lazily playing back court 'watch the play on the field' and STILL stop opponents. By all rights, that team would say they're playing good defense, but if you graded each position they'd be getting an F- Your (coach) name is on the product on the field. If you can't hang your hat on the execution, you should regroup and get help. This can be difficult to hear when you find yourself on the positive side of athletic slop.
|
|
|
Post by realdawg on Feb 1, 2024 10:19:27 GMT -6
The first thing I look for is do they run upfield on defense. It doesnt matter if you spill or box, to me you shouldnt run upfield vs run blocks. If you do, you are probably not well coached.
|
|
|
Post by cwaltsmith on Feb 1, 2024 11:04:49 GMT -6
I think a great indicator of coaching is... do the young players get better as you play them year to year or do they stay the same. Obviously, kids will get better as the grow bc they become bigger, faster, stronger usually simply by maturing. But I have coached on staffs and against staffs where they have a stud frosh OL or something start as frosh, and then as a senior they are the same kid except for normal physical maturity. I left a staff bc I felt this was one of the main problems with the program. We did not develop talent.
|
|
|
Post by irishdog on Feb 1, 2024 11:17:42 GMT -6
All of the above. But I've said it on this site (different thread?) that the guys who win with less talent, as opposed to the guys with great talent who win, are the coaches I have admired most in this profession. A number of them are the very guys who post on this site.
|
|
|
Post by veerman on Feb 1, 2024 12:07:09 GMT -6
All of the above. But I've said it on this site (different thread?) that the guys who win with less talent, as opposed to the guys with great talent who win, are the coaches I have admired most in this profession. A number of them are the very guys who post on this site. I have come to the conclusion that I know more coaches who are Great coaches IMO that have a losing coaching records than I know Great coaches that have winning records and state titles.
|
|
|
Post by blb on Feb 1, 2024 12:29:40 GMT -6
All of the above. But I've said it on this site (different thread?) that the guys who win with less talent, as opposed to the guys with great talent who win, are the coaches I have admired most in this profession. A number of them are the very guys who post on this site. I have come to the conclusion that I know more coaches who are Great coaches IMO that have a losing coaching records than I know Great coaches that have winning records and state titles. I have said it before, and I'll post it again: The best coaches don't always win. A coach I know was something like 3-24, 11-34 in his first two head coaching jobs. Several years later he was promoted to HC at a "good football school" where he had been assistant. He has won nine or more games every year, been to the state championship game twice, has won (I think) nine conference championships in a row, and hasn't lost a conference game in I don't know how many years.
|
|
|
Post by coachdmyers on Feb 1, 2024 12:45:39 GMT -6
I think a great indicator of coaching is... do the young players get better as you play them year to year or do they stay the same. Obviously, kids will get better as the grow bc they become bigger, faster, stronger usually simply by maturing. But I have coached on staffs and against staffs where they have a stud frosh OL or something start as frosh, and then as a senior they are the same kid except for normal physical maturity. I left a staff bc I felt this was one of the main problems with the program. We did not develop talent. There is a team in our area that is notorious for having freshmen teams that go undefeated every year, and then those classes end up anywhere between 7-3 and 4-6 as seniors. Not developing kids is a problem.
|
|
|
Post by coachks on Feb 1, 2024 13:38:07 GMT -6
Couple of quick tells: Defensively:
1) How many kids get to the ball on defense. If you are seeing a bunch of solo tackle, it's probably good athletes. If every tackle has 3+ hats around, that means they are reading keys, beating blocks and pursuing.
2) Do the DB's fit the edge right. IE, do their corners and safeties dive inside on perimeter plays, or do they understand winning outside their blocker to make a wall.
3) Stances and precision in alignment. Is a 3-tech always a 3 tech, or is he sometimes a 2, sometimes a 4i. Sometimes he is on the ball, others he is flexed. If they sub in a different kid, does he align in the same way... or does his alignment different. Are some corners playing man alignment, while the other kid is half-turned playing zone. (And you know when it's because they are literally playing different techniques vs just being different).
Offensively: 1) OL Timing - Do all of the lineman move at the same time, or do they have a stagger.
2) RB's path on run plays.Does he have good, precise footwork to attack the play, or is he just moving in a general direction.
3) QB's footwork compared with the pass concept. Is he shuffling his feet all around to throw a screen (not popping and throwing). Is he taking a drop that times up with the routes, or is it too deep or not deep enough. Big one is dropping way to deep too fast (impossible to pass pro or throw on rhythm) and not being able to get a screen or three step throw off without doing a 4 step tap dance.
4) Receiver splits matching the route and the route depth matching the route. IE, are they running a "1 step hitch" on smash and just standing around. Or a 9 yard "slant" on a slant arrow that is closer to a post then a slant.
|
|
|
Post by groundchuck on Feb 1, 2024 14:34:02 GMT -6
Another thing to look at does the team improve as the season goes. Are the fundamentals better? Are they still playing hard. Do the players pick up the slight adjustments on the field better in the back half of the years than from week 1-2. I had a parent (who could be very critical at times) tell me that he always thought we played better over the second half of the season which he thought showed we had a good staff. (Thought sometimes it was a backhanded compliment though like we could not figure {censored} out for the front end of the season)
|
|
|
Post by raider92 on Feb 1, 2024 14:45:29 GMT -6
Another thing to look at does the team improve as the season goes. Are the fundamentals better? Are they still playing hard. Do the players pick up the slight adjustments on the field better in the back half of the years than from week 1-2. I had a parent (who could be very critical at times) tell me that he always thought we played better over the second half of the season which he thought showed we had a good staff. (Thought sometimes it was a backhanded compliment though like we could not figure {censored} out for the front end of the season) I once got a weird compliment from a parent like that. Had a dad who was super critical of me and would send me an email every week with his criticisms from last Friday's game which I had never responded to. Near the end of my first year (we weren't good), he sent an email wherein he told me he had concluded I was a bad coach. He did however add that I was a fine young man (only like 23 at the time) and that he would be happy if his daughter brought home a guy like me. For the first time ever I responded, "what's her number?"
|
|
|
Post by silkyice on Feb 1, 2024 15:22:58 GMT -6
and that he would be happy if his daughter brought home a guy like me. For the first time ever I responded, "what's her number?" Literal laugh out loud!
|
|
|
Post by irishdog on Feb 1, 2024 15:32:25 GMT -6
Another thing to look at does the team improve as the season goes. Are the fundamentals better? Are they still playing hard. Do the players pick up the slight adjustments on the field better in the back half of the years than from week 1-2. I had a parent (who could be very critical at times) tell me that he always thought we played better over the second half of the season which he thought showed we had a good staff. (Thought sometimes it was a backhanded compliment though like we could not figure {censored} out for the front end of the season) I once got a weird compliment from a parent like that. Had a dad who was super critical of me and would send me an email every week with his criticisms from last Friday's game which I had never responded to. Near the end of my first year (we weren't good), he sent an email wherein he told me he had concluded I was a bad coach. He did however add that I was a fine young man (only like 23 at the time) and that he would be happy if his daughter brought home a guy like me. For the first time ever I responded, "what's her number?" That's hilarious! Did he give it to you?
|
|