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Post by poundit52 on Dec 12, 2023 9:20:16 GMT -6
What do you do as a HC or coordinator when a lower level coaching staff (JV or Freshman) goes rogue on scheme? For example, you are a 20/11 Personnel Shotgun team and one of your lower levels comes out in under center I-Formation for about 1/3 of their plays. Or, you are an Odd defense that plays a lot of Cover 2 and one of your lower levels plays an extensive amount of Even front with Man coverage.
How do you handle this? This is not something I have had to deal with lately, but a buddy of mine ran into it this season and it was hard to navigate at times for him. For a staff I was on in the past, we had this happen at two different times and in different way/degrees.
In one instance, our Freshman staff was running the DBL Tight I-Form at times when we were exclusively a 10/11 personnel based program. Now, this was part of a package at first for short yardage and then it kept expanding until they were in it just under half the time. It was decently successful in the beginning and then kind of petered out as the season went on. It fit some of their personnel they had but the actual schemes (Gap Scheme and Toss) were not what the Varsity or JV were running. It was kind of awkward but eventually it just went away.
The other instance was much worse... We were primarily a Man team on defense that mixed in some Cover 3 for a changeup. Our JV staff majored in Cover 2 that year and they were bad at it. The kids did not understand it and it didn't fit our program at all. It fit a JV coach that wanted to run it. Eventually, the Varsity HC had a talk with him but when it was nut cutting time during games the Cover 2 look would pop up again. It was frustrating to watch.
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Post by MICoach on Dec 12, 2023 9:32:44 GMT -6
If they are using different personnel to still teach the same core techniques (gap runs, MOFC coverages, whatever you do) then I don't think it matters much.
I think you can give a longer leash to the freshmen team than the JV too...with freshmen I really just hope they're having fun and are gonna come back and play JV the next year, hopefully they're learning core techniques (ILB's can read guards, OL can pull and down block/double team, etc). I think in an ideal world the JV is just running the varsity's base O and D.
With that said, most often there's usually going to be some philosophical differences between who's calling the plays which may also lead to some different personnel groupings and such. We had one JV OC who loved to chuck it all over the place (and he was pretty good at coaching it) so as long as they were doing that while teaching things that were transferable to varsity then that's fine. More recently we had a JV OC who was more of a ground and pound type guy...he probably got into double tight I a little more than we'd ever do on varsity but he was still running power, counter, and iso.
Where you get into trouble is entirely different schematic stuff...you wouldn't want your JV running flexbone and varsity being spread-to-run...if you're a 4-2-5 quarters team the JV probably shouldn't be running 5-3 cover 0, etc.
I've never experienced that, but I have seen it in other places. I think if you're the varsity head coach you need to make sure the JV and freshmen coaches understand what you want out of them, and they can freelance some, but the core philosophies probably shouldn't be up to their discretion.
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Post by Defcord on Dec 12, 2023 9:37:25 GMT -6
I am a head coach. I don't care what the youth and junior high runs. I ask them to do three things.
1. Make sure kids love football.
2. Make sure every kid that is at ever practice plays and make sure any kid that misses practice can't start/play (have a consistet policy)
3. Make sure kids are working out twice a week and when you workout make sure all squats are parallel.
Other than that I don't care what they do.
The JV practices with us both coaching and player wise so they run what we run. I tell the coaches they can add some trick plays or a special blitz but overall they need to be running what we run. If they didn't, I would have a conversation before it got any further. If it continued after conversation, the guys running the stuff outside of expectation would no longer be making those calls.
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Post by blb on Dec 12, 2023 11:10:16 GMT -6
I told our Sub-Varsity coaches these are the plays and formations you are to run. Vertical Continuity in teaching OUR system was vital to Program Development. Like Defcord if they wanted to add a Gadget (HB Pass for ex.) I didn't have a problem with that. If a Sub-Varsity coach was running something other than what they were told to that would amount to Insubordination and grounds for termination. |
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Post by larrymoe on Dec 12, 2023 12:30:49 GMT -6
Was a freshman coach in a program where the fresh team and the varsity ran Double Wing with at least 1 WR most of the time. Fresh played Thurs and varsity Fri. The next Monday our JV comes out in triple I double tight. I was sitting in the booth next to the camera and pretty loudly said "What the hell is this?" I meant it as, what the hell are they running? Apparently during film the JV coaches turned the sound up and made fun of me as if I wasn't smart enough to figure out their mastermind scheme.
The JV coach eventually got fired/resigned before the season was over. He applied for the HC job that winter when I ended up getting it. Needless to say, I had a lot of problems with those JV kids in my 1 year as a HC there. That coach continued to hang around the program while his kids were in school and cause problems until even his wife had enough of him and divorced him.
Guy used to have kids over to his house to show them highlight films of him playing in HS and college. He was that guy.
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Post by CS on Dec 12, 2023 12:53:34 GMT -6
Was a freshman coach in a program where the fresh team and the varsity ran Double Wing with at least 1 WR most of the time. Fresh played Thurs and varsity Fri. The next Monday our JV comes out in triple I double tight. I was sitting in the booth next to the camera and pretty loudly said "What the hell is this?" I meant it as, what the hell are they running? Apparently during film the JV coaches turned the sound up and made fun of me as if I wasn't smart enough to figure out their mastermind scheme. The JV coach eventually got fired/resigned before the season was over. He applied for the HC job that winter when I ended up getting it. Needless to say, I had a lot of problems with those JV kids in my 1 year as a HC there. That coach continued to hang around the program while his kids were in school and cause problems until even his wife had enough of him and divorced him. Guy used to have kids over to his house to show them highlight films of him playing in HS and college. He was that guy. And then he became famous as 3 year letterman |
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Post by coachtua on Dec 12, 2023 13:16:47 GMT -6
As the JV OC for a number of years at a previous school I prided my self in having my JV kids ready to be called up to varsity if needed. We ran the base stuff and executed it well. But we would also run some stuff to show our HC that our fit into our overall scheme offensively. Eventually some of that stuff would filter up to varsity.
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Post by silkyice on Dec 12, 2023 14:03:39 GMT -6
If no direction is given to the coach, whatever.
If they are told to do something and they don't, then meeting. If it continues, fired.
Personally, not real worried about the lower levels other than what @defcord said, but if I directed a grown man who I am in charge of to do something reasonable and he doesn't, there will be an issue.
BUT, I tend to stay away from most anything like that. Don't die on a stupid hill or whatever the saying is. The better saying is "don't build stupid hills". But if you build it, ...
PS - not saying that having younger teams run your stuff is stupid.
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CoachR
Freshmen Member
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Post by CoachR on Dec 13, 2023 8:31:15 GMT -6
Never really been a huge deal to me that the lower level groups run the exact same scheme as the high school. The most important thing to me is that they enjoy the game and learn to win. If they can do that inside of your high school scheme then great, but not every group can. This year our JV started the season running our high school offense (10/11 personnel spread) but lost both quarterbacks after the first game. They spent the rest of the season in a hybrid single wing and went undefeated. Had they stayed in the high school offense they might have won one game. They had fun and grew as football players.
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Post by MICoach on Dec 13, 2023 8:46:06 GMT -6
As the JV OC for a number of years at a previous school I prided my self in having my JV kids ready to be called up to varsity if needed. We ran the base stuff and executed it well. But we would also run some stuff to show our HC that our fit into our overall scheme offensively. Eventually some of that stuff would filter up to varsity. This is the way! When I called our lower level O I ran all the base stuff...we couldn't chuck it around very well so I asked the HC/OC if they cared if I added a few wrinkles to the run game (aka things I thought the varsity should also be running). Unsurprisingly, when it became evident that they were worthwhile additions, they made their way into the varsity offense. |
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Post by IronmanFootball on Dec 13, 2023 9:30:40 GMT -6
I coached freshman ball for ~5 years.
I saw the guys who ran 0% of what varsity did (I and 3-5 vs spread and 4-4)
Guys who did 1/2 what varsity did (same offense, diff defense)
Guys who were forced to run only "these five exact pages" from the playbook
and guys who did a scaled down version of V, so closer to 100% but allowed to make tweaks
Best program of the 4 was the last one. Everyone wants SOME autonomy
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Post by Down 'n Out on Dec 13, 2023 9:50:32 GMT -6
Scaled down with some tweaks is the way to go imo.
There needs to be some cohesion, especially in terms of terminology but also scheme. I did JV this past season and our Varsity was 3 or 4 wide, we kept a TE and a HBack in as it fit our talent better. Our kids are also comfortable with running Bucksweep and I like it so I kept it but it went from the backbone of our offense to something we ran 4-5 times a game when the Defense gave it to us.
Some of the smoothest offenses Ive seen are a Wing-t/Double Wing team and a Single Wing team(been doing it for 60+ years). They run their stuff from Little League on up, adding a little more every year.
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Post by coachks on Dec 13, 2023 11:48:53 GMT -6
I think you want 80/20. 80% of what they do should be based on the varsity. 20% can be “JV Ball” stuff so that they can play competitive football.
By JV ball I mean that sometimes those kids don’t have the skills to play some situations. They might need to add in a wildcat package to use in short yardage or goalline, or add a screen pass because they can’t convert a 4th and 10 passing the ball downfield, or add a Jet sweep / Reverse / End Around because they can’t throw the ball to their best WR enough. Or add a speed option because the OL isn’t skilled enough to block pin and pull or stretch or whatever. Or they might need a 6 OL look because receiver 2 is terrible, but OL 6 is better.
Basically, ways to overcome talent shortcomings because the best players are on varsity…. So you might be missing an piece.
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Post by IronmanFootball on Dec 13, 2023 12:43:46 GMT -6
I think you want 80/20. 80% of what they do should be based on the varsity. 20% can be “JV Ball” stuff so that they can play competitive football. By JV ball I mean that sometimes those kids don’t have the skills to play some situations. They might need to add in a wildcat package to use in short yardage or goalline, or add a screen pass because they can’t convert a 4th and 10 passing the ball downfield, or add a Jet sweep / Reverse / End Around because they can’t throw the ball to their best WR enough. Or add a speed option because the OL isn’t skilled enough to block pin and pull or stretch or whatever. Or they might need a 6 OL look because receiver 2 is terrible, but OL 6 is better. Basically, ways to overcome talent shortcomings because the best players are on varsity…. So you might be missing an piece. One stop we were a WCO I team but midline was in the 150 page book so I asked the HC if I could use it, he was all for it. Play was a MONEY play for us bc our QB could dunk, gun you out from RF, and would moss guys for fun in blowouts at WR. It was cool to have 'our play' even though it was in the big book. |
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Post by IronmanFootball on Dec 13, 2023 12:46:08 GMT -6
Scaled down with some tweaks is the way to go imo. There needs to be some cohesion, especially in terms of terminology but also scheme. I did JV this past season and our Varsity was 3 or 4 wide, we kept a TE and a HBack in as it fit our talent better. Our kids are also comfortable with running Bucksweep and I like it so I kept it but it went from the backbone of our offense to something we ran 4-5 times a game when the Defense gave it to us. Some of the smoothest offenses Ive seen are a Wing-t/Double Wing team and a Single Wing team(been doing it for 60+ years). They run their stuff from Little League on up, adding a little more every year. If I was in an area with football pride, but not so much football skill; I would encourage the pistol-gun wing-t at HS and the wing-t in the youth program and constantly scale closer to the varsity model every level. MS team runs some gun, some under. Maybe give them a pre-snap RPO look to play with. |
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mc140
Sophomore Member
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Post by mc140 on Dec 13, 2023 13:20:59 GMT -6
Terminology is the most important thing to stay consistent with. Skill sets vary by age and group. If your varsity has a run first QB and your lower level qbs are more stationary and pass first, there has to be some difference in what is called.
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Post by groundchuck on Dec 13, 2023 14:03:09 GMT -6
I used to hand them the O playe and formations and said do this. I did have an assistant who dicked around and did his own thing and after a few years he decided to quit. WHich is funny because then we started enjoying our most success.
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Post by Down 'n Out on Dec 13, 2023 14:27:36 GMT -6
Scaled down with some tweaks is the way to go imo. There needs to be some cohesion, especially in terms of terminology but also scheme. I did JV this past season and our Varsity was 3 or 4 wide, we kept a TE and a HBack in as it fit our talent better. Our kids are also comfortable with running Bucksweep and I like it so I kept it but it went from the backbone of our offense to something we ran 4-5 times a game when the Defense gave it to us. Some of the smoothest offenses Ive seen are a Wing-t/Double Wing team and a Single Wing team(been doing it for 60+ years). They run their stuff from Little League on up, adding a little more every year. If I was in an area with football pride, but not so much football skill; I would encourage the pistol-gun wing-t at HS and the wing-t in the youth program and constantly scale closer to the varsity model every level. MS team runs some gun, some under. Maybe give them a pre-snap RPO look to play with. This is the way |
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Post by coachscdub on Dec 13, 2023 15:17:51 GMT -6
I dont believe in running the same stuff on Frosh ball as you do on varsity, not saying you shouldn't or cant, but saying instead i don't think you should force it.
Speaking on Frosh Football, to me it is all about teaching fundamentals, Blocking/Tackling, Ball carrying/Catching, etc, having fun, and retention.
Scheme does not matter. When i coached JV ball we ran a formation that our Varsity ran but we ran it full time. The biggest thing i could or would argue is to utilize similar names if possible.
Power on varsity = Pittsburgh, so lets call it Pittsburgh on Frosh, ACE/DEUCE/TREY are the DBL teams so lets use the same terms.
But i don't believe in having the Frosh/JV run the exact same offense because most times it just doesn't work well.
Let the lower levels call plays that work for them, but ensure that the players are being taught fundamentals so when they do advance you as a varsity coach can talk about scheme and not how to block/tackle etc.
I should mention one personal experience that led me to this was when we folded our JV program and made a frosh-soph team. All my returning sophomores from the year before all asked if we were running the same offense as before and when i told them no, they all said "cool, i don't remember it anyways".
Kids don't spend all year thinking about the names of plays and all the stuff we think about. They show up for practice and will learn it, so it doesn't matter what it was called their frosh/soph/junior year, it just matters what you call it now.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Dec 13, 2023 17:05:23 GMT -6
I am kind of with silkyrice here. A lot depends on what the head coach dictates. Recently, I haven’t had to worry about it as we have so few kids out it is one level. JH kind of does our stuff… but as long as they call things the same (blocking calls, plays, etc.), I don’t really care how they line up because we vary that year to year. When I was in a 5A school, I wanted our JV/sophs to kind of mirror our stuff. We practiced together some anyway (team time was usually separate), so it was kind of natural. Freshmen were in a different location and I just wanted kids to play. I remember being asked jokingly by the freshman head coach once, “How many games do I need to win to keep my job, coach?” “None. But if a little weak kid suddenly becomes 6’1 and 195# and athletic and quit playing football after his freshman year because he never played, you’re out of a job.” Not real jokingly, by the way. I go back to this a lot, but when I was in a small school in Nebraska, I was the varsity HC and JH HC. We practiced the last period of the day for the JH kids. We ran our stuff, but very scaled back… and we did some things on the JH level that we didn’t do on varsity (mainly a little more under C, some simpler passes). That gave me a better perspective on what the needs are at the lower level… probably made me a better HS coach too as we scaled back some things there. There are many camps on this, and I am not arguing for any particular way… but whatever the HC says is “right” and must be followed. |
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Post by tog on Dec 13, 2023 18:01:02 GMT -6
they would be gone by dawn
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Post by bobgoodman on Dec 13, 2023 18:35:42 GMT -6
Scaled down with some tweaks is the way to go imo. There needs to be some cohesion, especially in terms of terminology but also scheme. I did JV this past season and our Varsity was 3 or 4 wide, we kept a TE and a HBack in as it fit our talent better. Our kids are also comfortable with running Bucksweep and I like it so I kept it but it went from the backbone of our offense to something we ran 4-5 times a game when the Defense gave it to us. Some of the smoothest offenses Ive seen are a Wing-t/Double Wing team and a Single Wing team(been doing it for 60+ years). They run their stuff from Little League on up, adding a little more every year. What if it turns out the little league has success with their own thing, and as they grow the higher levels see it and adopt it? |
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Post by nicku on Dec 13, 2023 20:17:42 GMT -6
Short answer: do what you are told. If you aren't told, well, I can't relate to that. We have always had some fun little wrinkles on the subvarsity, but it has always been "our" offense and defense.
What I will say is one of the most annoying things as a sub-varsity coach, and specifically if you call the plays, is when your HC is opposite side of the ball of what you are, and your OC/DC is constantly trying to stick their beak in with no regard for you personnel. "Can we run (deep dropback pass with a double-move)?" Like he didn't just watch our QB 7-hop a key screen.
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Post by Down 'n Out on Dec 14, 2023 5:39:21 GMT -6
Scaled down with some tweaks is the way to go imo. There needs to be some cohesion, especially in terms of terminology but also scheme. I did JV this past season and our Varsity was 3 or 4 wide, we kept a TE and a HBack in as it fit our talent better. Our kids are also comfortable with running Bucksweep and I like it so I kept it but it went from the backbone of our offense to something we ran 4-5 times a game when the Defense gave it to us. Some of the smoothest offenses Ive seen are a Wing-t/Double Wing team and a Single Wing team(been doing it for 60+ years). They run their stuff from Little League on up, adding a little more every year. What if it turns out the little league has success with their own thing, and as they grow the higher levels see it and adopt it? The varsity's system should be flexible enough to accommodate variances in talent from year to year. If the Little League is so sophisticated that it outpaces the varsity id say there are bigger issues within the program. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Dec 14, 2023 5:50:27 GMT -6
What if it turns out the little league has success with their own thing, and as they grow the higher levels see it and adopt it? The varsity's system should be flexible enough to accommodate variances in talent from year to year. If the Little League is so sophisticated that it outpaces the varsity id say there are bigger issues within the program. Is it a matter of sophistication and pace? I think that by now practically all differences in system in football are matters of fashion and taste; it's all been done, but institutions and people change from time to time. When that program was doing one thing one year and another the next, how/why does that change come about? Could it never happen that they went with the flow from below, rather than importing the ideas from who-knows-where, or what the new staff were doing elsewhere? Not like the kids were "ahead" or sophisticated, just that this is what their coaches happened to be doing and what they've become used to. |
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Post by Down 'n Out on Dec 14, 2023 7:51:50 GMT -6
I just dont see "you know what, those little league coaches were completely right and we need to do what they were doing" as being the case. If it is the LL coaches may be more knowledgeable than the varsity coaches(hence my comment about being more sophisticated and outpacing them).
Imo the varsity shouldn't change their scheme because the kids coming up are used to something different. The LL should conform to what the Varsity is doing that way everything lines up vertically. Imo that's the best scenario. Now, LL coaches who want to do their own thing happens, changes in varsity coaches happen, etc. All of that derails what is best for the kids development, and in my experience that's a systematic approach from the time the kids put on pads until they graduate.
Again, that doesn't mean that the upper level coaches shouldn't adapt somewhat to fit the talent they have and if the LL coaches are worth their salt they have played to those strengths all along.
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Post by coachks on Dec 14, 2023 8:28:21 GMT -6
Additional .02,
Most kids don't play the same position for his 4 years of HS. Some do, but I would say most don't. There are always a ton of kids who come up as skill players, who are really lineman by the time they finish puberty. Just as many guys who played offense who get moved to defense. Guys bounce between RB, WR, DB - move from DL to LB, Safety and LB ect.
Let alone from middle school. I've had a lot of middle school centers become skill position players because they thinned out going into high school.
I think being too rigid with the younger groups is a mistake. Ideally you want some consistency, but being successful and having fun is probably more important.
I've seen many a middle school team in gun, 4 wide because that is what the high school does - but they can't snap or throw a screen pass.... so when they run into a 6-2 front they can't even throw and catch the uncovered stuff, and it's just miserable.
JV wise, well, those kids could become varsity players at any moment so you need something closer to what the varsity runs because they are depth for the program. Below that? Try and use the same terminology (Power is called Power, Counter is called Counter ect...)
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Post by spartan on Dec 14, 2023 8:36:17 GMT -6
I say we have to overlap on these two plays and this defense the rest is yours. Don't be a control freak on volunteers JEsus
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Post by bobgoodman on Dec 14, 2023 9:56:59 GMT -6
I just dont see "you know what, those little league coaches were completely right and we need to do what they were doing" as being the case. If it is the LL coaches may be more knowledgeable than the varsity coaches(hence my comment about being more sophisticated and outpacing them). The lower the level, the more coaches (and players) there are, so just by the law of averages you'd expect more to percolate up from below than to filter down from above. The only countervailing factor is money, since at higher levels you can make money from coaching and therefore have that incentive to stay ahead of the field. However, my observation is that this late in the development of football, the game is pretty mature, and practically all changes are just recycling. Doesn't matter whether it comes from pee-wees or pros, they read/saw/heard about it somewhere, they didn't invent it. |
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Post by Down 'n Out on Dec 14, 2023 11:55:12 GMT -6
Theres definitely nothing new in football, if you study the game then you know its all been done before.
I guess my line of thought is more in terms of player development. lets make sure the lower levels are developing WRs, TEs, RBs, lead blockers, etc. For example we had a RB several years back who was (for our level and area) pretty special. The kids dad had coached him all the way up to be a Jet Sweep back, get to the sideline and get up field. It took us several years to develop him into a complete back as a ball carrier, not to mention his blocking(very humble, team first kid so getting him to block wasn't an issue but teaching him technique was. Same thing happened to me this past season: the Middle School HC/OC ran 4 wide gun, liked to run his most physical kid on Jet. Well that kid is a Guard going forward. Made for a long season for me: no other players developed to carry the offense, and I had to deal with the physical kid and his parents, explaining why he really wasnt a outside runner, why I had "demoted him" to the line. Would have been much easier if the MSHC would have been more concerned with development than chasing wins.
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