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Post by CanyonCoach on Oct 25, 2023 12:07:13 GMT -6
Is there a standard means that your conference/state has adopted for keeping track of tackles, assited tackles and sacks.
A team in our conference always has 5 guys with around 100 tackles. They always get all conference and all state selections based to some extent off of stats.
Again this season our leaders are all in the 60's for tackles. We chuck it around a bit so our opponents get plenty of chances with the ball, they are ground pound team that chews up clock.
I would love to see a more realistic stats.
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Post by 44dlcoach on Oct 25, 2023 12:11:26 GMT -6
We do not have a standard, and we have exactly the same scenario that you've described.
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Post by blb on Oct 25, 2023 12:24:29 GMT -6
Is there a standard means that your conference/state has adopted for keeping track of tackles, assited tackles and sacks. A team in our conference always has 5 guys with around 100 tackles. They always get all conference and all state selections based to some extent off of stats. Again this season our leaders are all in the 60's for tackles. We chuck it around a bit so our opponents get plenty of chances with the ball, they are ground pound team that chews up clock. I would love to see a more realistic stats. Teams with five guys with 100 tackles either are bad on defense or (more likely) have stat keepers that don't know what a tackle is. Solo = one player stops BC's forward progress. Assisted = two (no more than that) stop BC's forward progress together. That has been the standard forever. Jumping on the pile doesn't count. I was always amazed at All-League meetings at how the worst teams in our league nominated defensive players with more tackles than the best defensive teams. Some of those kids would have to have been in on not only most tackles on defensive plays but also kickoff, punt returns - and incomplete passes. But interestingly enough they didn't against us. My teams were typically pretty good on defense and we rarely had one player over 100 tackles (Solos and Assists combined) much less five. |
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Post by Defcord on Oct 25, 2023 13:06:34 GMT -6
We had a kid on our schedule register 151 tackles through nine games. Our top tackler had 63 and our next two had 45 and 44.
Some guys just stat out everyone on the pile.
My second year coaching we had a kid that has 134 tackles in 11 games he’s still one of the top 5 defenders I have ever seen play the game.
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Post by cqmiller on Oct 25, 2023 13:19:17 GMT -6
Unless everyone agrees, the defensive stats are the most ridiculous stats I've seen. There was a team around here that was counting a tackle of a QB on a zone-read behind the LOS as a sack. They would play a team that only had 20 pass plays called in a game and have like 16 sacks.
I always use the official stat rules and only give 1 solo or up to 2 assisted tackles only. If you want to check the math, you should always have:
Total Defensive Snaps - Touchdowns - Penalties = solo + .5*assisted
Nothing makes me laugh harder than a team with only 75 defensive snaps in a game and has like 185 tackles between solos and assisted.
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Post by cqmiller on Oct 25, 2023 13:24:00 GMT -6
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Post by silkyice on Oct 25, 2023 14:36:08 GMT -6
Agreed.
And this is not what this thread is about, but shouldn't the worse teams have MORE tackles. If you are a good LB on a bad team with a bad DL and bad offense, there is a good chance that you can make a lot of tackles every game. Maybe not a lot of actual plays, but a lot of tackles.
If you play on a good defense, your defense gets off the field and you have limited opportunities to make a tackle because someone else has already done it while your good offense doesn't just go three and out.
But yes, there are some ridiculous defensive stats.
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Post by carookie on Oct 25, 2023 15:44:18 GMT -6
I agree with the general premise here, but I will write this.
I had a kid a few years ago finish in the top 10 nationally in tackles. We made it to the championship, so we played 14 games which is an advantage, but this kid had a legit 200+ tackles (Total, Solo + Assist) that season.
After every game his dad, or someone else close, would come up and say, "had 17 tackles that game." I'd doubt them, and say, "I'll check the film". I'll be darned if it wasn't on point every time.
Now mind you, we were double digits better than every team we played (except for one), so he was often out by the 4th quarter. Moreover, we had two other D1 kids on that defense, and one whose still in the league, so he wasn't the only kid out there who could play. But he was just an animal. I'll admit, lots of stat padding goes on, but sometimes the numbers are right...
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Post by blb on Oct 25, 2023 15:45:59 GMT -6
Agreed. And this is not what this thread is about, but shouldn't the worse teams have MORE tackles. If you are a good LB on a bad team with a bad DL and bad offense, there is a good chance that you can make a lot of tackles every game. Maybe not a lot of actual plays, but a lot of tackles. If you play on a good defense, your defense gets off the field and you have limited opportunities to make a tackle because someone else has already done it while your good offense doesn't just go three and out. But yes, there are some ridiculous defensive stats. You have a point but the worse teams seldom have a good LB or they wouldn't be the worse teams. Their safeties make a lot of tackles if anyone. And the offense can score just as quickly (three plays and strike up the band) as the bad team's offense can go three and out. |
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Post by coachwoodall on Oct 26, 2023 6:59:44 GMT -6
Unless everyone agrees, the defensive stats are the most ridiculous stats I've seen. There was a team around here that was counting a tackle of a QB on a zone-read behind the LOS as a sack. They would play a team that only had 20 pass plays called in a game and have like 16 sacks. I always use the official stat rules and only give 1 solo or up to 2 assisted tackles only. If you want to check the math, you should always have: Total Defensive Snaps - Touchdowns - Penalties = solo + .5*assisted Nothing makes me laugh harder than a team with only 75 defensive snaps in a game and has like 185 tackles between solos and assisted. it ain't just defense. Unless somebody takes the time to double check, the numbers are just what they say they are. Years ago when I first started coaching and our rival had a pair of brothers in the backfield, and there was a big deal made of how many games in a row the TB had 100 yard rushing games. The game before we played each other was for the conference championship and our rival lost a tough, low scoring game. Watching the film as defensive prep, the TB didn't seem to gain a lot yards -- no long runs/big plays but lots of carries. After watching it several times and being bored with trying to figure out how to slow them down, I decided to tally the gains the TB had from the film. Instead of the 107 'hard fought' yards to gain his 19th 100+ yard rushing game in a row, it actually was 87 yards gained. |
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mc140
Sophomore Member
Posts: 220
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Post by mc140 on Oct 26, 2023 8:46:15 GMT -6
Unless everyone agrees, the defensive stats are the most ridiculous stats I've seen. There was a team around here that was counting a tackle of a QB on a zone-read behind the LOS as a sack. They would play a team that only had 20 pass plays called in a game and have like 16 sacks. I always use the official stat rules and only give 1 solo or up to 2 assisted tackles only. If you want to check the math, you should always have: Total Defensive Snaps - Touchdowns - Penalties = solo + .5*assisted Nothing makes me laugh harder than a team with only 75 defensive snaps in a game and has like 185 tackles between solos and assisted. it ain't just defense. Unless somebody takes the time to double check, the numbers are just what they say they are. Years ago when I first started coaching and our rival had a pair of brothers in the backfield, and there was a big deal made of how many games in a row the TB had 100 yard rushing games. The game before we played each other was for the conference championship and our rival lost a tough, low scoring game. Watching the film as defensive prep, the TB didn't seem to gain a lot yards -- no long runs/big plays but lots of carries. After watching it several times and being bored with trying to figure out how to slow them down, I decided to tally the gains the TB had from the film. Instead of the 107 'hard fought' yards to gain his 19th 100+ yard rushing game in a row, it actually was 87 yards gained.
There are a number of people who love to inflate tackle stats by including anyone on or near the pile. I think that is more common than people doing it the right way.
Someone showed me a facebook post earlier in the year of a Mom on our team claiming her son had six sacks in one of our games. The team we played attempted 9 passes in total and we didn't even hit the qb six times. Also he officially had 3 tackles in the game and one for a loss.
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Post by wolverine55 on Oct 26, 2023 9:19:59 GMT -6
Our stats, I think, got called into question at our district meeting earlier this week. I try my hardest to make the tackles as accurate as possible. Sometimes you're at the mercy of your filmer. In Iowa and apparently elsewhere, it's supposed to be 1 tackle for a solo and 0.5 for an assist with no more than two assists per play. But...I have a hard time not giving guys an assist when it legitimately takes 3 or 4 guys to get a ball carrier down. That doesn't happen very often though. I would like to think my stats are pretty accurate.
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Post by blb on Oct 26, 2023 9:35:59 GMT -6
Our stats, I think, got called into question at our district meeting earlier this week. I try my hardest to make the tackles as accurate as possible. Sometimes you're at the mercy of your filmer. In Iowa and apparently elsewhere, it's supposed to be 1 tackle for a solo and 0.5 for an assist with no more than two assists per play. But...I have a hard time not giving guys an assist when it legitimately takes 3 or 4 guys to get a ball carrier down. That doesn't happen very often though. I would like to think my stats are pretty accurate. You do the best you can in your situation. I didn't want to have spend more time watching film to do stats. But it can be difficult to find reliable people to do it (really takes two do it right) even if you use coaches. Football stats are much harder to do than basketball or baseball, especially in a game where one or both teams are "Up Tempo." |
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Post by wolverine55 on Oct 26, 2023 9:48:36 GMT -6
I've actually done live stats during our varsity basketball games. I was worried about the pace. And you're right: it wasn't very hard at all.
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Post by carookie on Oct 26, 2023 13:10:26 GMT -6
I've actually done live stats during our varsity basketball games. I was worried about the pace. And you're right: it wasn't very hard at all. Basketball is a piece of cake, as are most offensive stats, because their is little subjectivity. The issue at play here is determining who made a tackle when multiple people were involved in making the tackle. Its rare that you see multiple basketball players from the same team all grab them same rebound; I see it happen at least several times a game in football where multiple defenders will have a part in bringing a ball carrier down. |
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Post by blb on Oct 26, 2023 13:33:39 GMT -6
I see it happen at least several times a game in football where multiple defenders will have a part in bringing a ball carrier down. Statisticians are tasked with determining who was PRIMARILY responsible for stopping BC's Forward Progress - not necessarily "bringing him down" although the two aren't mutually exclusive. It is unlikely that it takes more than two players to do so. One tackler on the right side of BC's body, one on the left. Or one in front, one behind. Would take a pretty big-strong BC to have more than two actually stop his advancing the ball. But again - the question would be, who was PRIMARILY responsible for stopping him, not coming in and grabbing cloth or jumping on the pile. |
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Post by silkyice on Oct 26, 2023 13:52:41 GMT -6
So how is this recorded.
44 comes in a and wraps up ball carrier and holds on to his leg for a good couple of yards but never stops his progress. Ball carrier spins and 44 keeps hanging on the his leg. 20 comes in and hits bc pretty good stopping his progress, but knocking 44 off of the bc. 52 comes in and brings the guy down.
Does 44 get nothing? Cause if so, I don't like it. Especially if 44 was going to get the bc down if 20 and 52 never showed up. Of course that is subjective, but let's say it is true in the case.
or maybe a simpler case.
Same thing, 44 holds on for 5 seconds and the bc eventually breaks free and then the whole freaking team tackles the bc because 44 held on for so long. Again, does 44 get nothing?
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Post by blb on Oct 26, 2023 14:23:47 GMT -6
So how is this recorded. 44 comes in a and wraps up ball carrier and holds on to his leg for a good couple of yards but never stops his progress. Ball carrier spins and 44 keeps hanging on the his leg. 20 comes in and hits bc pretty good stopping his progress, but knocking 44 off of the bc. 52 comes in and brings the guy down. Does 44 get nothing? Cause if so, I don't like it. Especially if 44 was going to get the bc down if 20 and 52 never showed up. Of course that is subjective, but let's say it is true in the case. or maybe a simpler case. Same thing, 44 holds on for 5 seconds and the bc eventually breaks free and then the whole freaking team tackles the bc because 44 held on for so long. Again, does 44 get nothing? 44 gets an "atta boy" from you his coach for the effort. But you yourself said he never stopped BC's progress in either case. Also - in your first scenario, how does 44 "wrap up" the BC if he's "hold(ing) on to his leg"? In your second, if 44's "hold(ing) on for 5 seconds" if he stopped BC's progress whistle would've been blown. He just went for a ride waiting for the Thundering Herd to arrive. Slowing a BC down is not stopping his forward progress and therefore not making a tackle. |
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Post by silkyice on Oct 26, 2023 14:53:33 GMT -6
So how is this recorded. 44 comes in a and wraps up ball carrier and holds on to his leg for a good couple of yards but never stops his progress. Ball carrier spins and 44 keeps hanging on the his leg. 20 comes in and hits bc pretty good stopping his progress, but knocking 44 off of the bc. 52 comes in and brings the guy down. Does 44 get nothing? Cause if so, I don't like it. Especially if 44 was going to get the bc down if 20 and 52 never showed up. Of course that is subjective, but let's say it is true in the case. or maybe a simpler case. Same thing, 44 holds on for 5 seconds and the bc eventually breaks free and then the whole freaking team tackles the bc because 44 held on for so long. Again, does 44 get nothing? 44 gets an "atta boy" from you his coach for the effort. But you yourself said he never stopped BC's progress in either case. Also - in your first scenario, how does 44 "wrap up" the BC if he's "hold(ing) on to his leg"? In your second, if 44's "hold(ing) on for 5 seconds" if he stopped BC's progress whistle would've been blown. He just went for a ride waiting for the Thundering Herd to arrive. Slowing a BC down is not stopping his forward progress and therefore not making a tackle. Right. So 44 is the one who really made the plays, and got nothing. Which is all ok really in my book. I dislike stats, especially football defensive stats. This is also why college coaches don't care about high school stats. AT ALL. |
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Post by Defcord on Oct 26, 2023 15:47:13 GMT -6
44 gets an "atta boy" from you his coach for the effort. But you yourself said he never stopped BC's progress in either case. Also - in your first scenario, how does 44 "wrap up" the BC if he's "hold(ing) on to his leg"? In your second, if 44's "hold(ing) on for 5 seconds" if he stopped BC's progress whistle would've been blown. He just went for a ride waiting for the Thundering Herd to arrive. Slowing a BC down is not stopping his forward progress and therefore not making a tackle. Right. So 44 is the one who really made the plays, and got nothing. Which is all ok really in my book. I dislike stats, especially football defensive stats. This is also why college coaches don't care about high school stats. AT ALL. Doesn’t the stat definition for a tackle allow for rare cases to have a third player to be credited with an assist. Your situation may warrant that. Guys hopping on the pile late not so much and a guy grabbing but not making the play or setting up the play not so much either. Defensive stats do suck overall, in regards to tackles specifically. Legitimate tackling stats do help gauge defensive production though so I see some benefit in them as a coach. |
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Post by blb on Oct 26, 2023 15:49:51 GMT -6
44 gets an "atta boy" from you his coach for the effort. But you yourself said he never stopped BC's progress in either case. Also - in your first scenario, how does 44 "wrap up" the BC if he's "hold(ing) on to his leg"? In your second, if 44's "hold(ing) on for 5 seconds" if he stopped BC's progress whistle would've been blown. He just went for a ride waiting for the Thundering Herd to arrive. Slowing a BC down is not stopping his forward progress and therefore not making a tackle. Right. So 44 is the one who really made the plays, and got nothing. Which is all ok really in my book. I dislike stats, especially football defensive stats. This is also why college coaches don't care about high school stats. AT ALL. You can argue whether 44 made the play or not. Or perhaps deserves an Assisted tackle in stat book. In either scenario BC could have drug 44 into EZ while scoring if his teammates didn't arrive in time, correct? |
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Post by 44dlcoach on Oct 26, 2023 16:58:33 GMT -6
A few years ago we had a team in our league that had something like 3 kids listed in the top 20 in the nation on maxpreps tackles. And the coach was pumping it up in the papers like it was legit amd deserved major publicity.
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Post by carookie on Oct 27, 2023 13:27:55 GMT -6
I see it happen at least several times a game in football where multiple defenders will have a part in bringing a ball carrier down. Statisticians are tasked with determining who was PRIMARILY responsible for stopping BC's Forward Progress - not necessarily "bringing him down" although the two aren't mutually exclusive. It is unlikely that it takes more than two players to do so. One tackler on the right side of BC's body, one on the left. Or one in front, one behind. Would take a pretty big-strong BC to have more than two actually stop his advancing the ball.But again - the question would be, who was PRIMARILY responsible for stopping him, not coming in and grabbing cloth or jumping on the pile. So I guess you saw our defense trying to tackle last night.... |
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Post by blb on Oct 27, 2023 13:41:50 GMT -6
Statisticians are tasked with determining who was PRIMARILY responsible for stopping BC's Forward Progress - not necessarily "bringing him down" although the two aren't mutually exclusive. It is unlikely that it takes more than two players to do so. One tackler on the right side of BC's body, one on the left. Or one in front, one behind. Would take a pretty big-strong BC to have more than two actually stop his advancing the ball.But again - the question would be, who was PRIMARILY responsible for stopping him, not coming in and grabbing cloth or jumping on the pile. So I guess you saw our defense trying to tackle last night.... No, just my own over the years. |
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