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Post by fantom on Sept 5, 2023 14:52:14 GMT -6
Now that I've been retired for a few years I've had time to reflect about a lot of things. Recently, one topic that I've thought about is the value of the HS playoffs. I'm thinking that the season is just too damn long.
Here in NC they've already played 3 regular season games before Labor Day. PA (Where I grew up) and VA (Where I coached) have played 2. All three states play their championship games in mid-December. Is this all really valuable and necessary?
Your thoughts?
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Playoffs?
Sept 5, 2023 15:20:31 GMT -6
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Post by 44dlcoach on Sept 5, 2023 15:20:31 GMT -6
I like playoffs, because I think they help demonstrate and reward teams that improve over the course of the season. I've been involved in quite a few seasons where we lost a game early on, only to beat that team in the playoffs.
I do agree the seasons are long though, and they are starting earlier and earlier. We are in our 4th game week, though not as bad as the OP scenarios, because our season ends the week before Thanksgiving. Our state champ will play 12-14 games total. A few years ago that could have been as high as 15.
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Post by blb on Sept 5, 2023 15:25:35 GMT -6
Now that I've been retired for a few years I've had time to reflect about a lot of things. Recently, one topic that I've thought about is the value of the HS playoffs. I'm thinking that the season is just too damn long. Here in NC they've already played 3 regular season games before Labor Day. PA (Where I grew up) and VA (Where I coached) have played 2. All three states play their championship games in mid-December. Is this all really valuable and necessary? You thoughts? Michigan is similar. Practice started August 7 (three weeks before most schools opened), played two games before Labor Day. Championship games are Thanksgiving Day weekend because that's when Ford Field is available due to Lions playing on the holiday. Finalists will be playing their 14th game (nine regular season) in a four-month long season, not including Off-Season work. That's a lot for HS kids. |
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Post by fantom on Sept 5, 2023 15:53:05 GMT -6
I like playoffs, because I think they help demonstrate and reward teams that improve over the course of the season. I've been involved in quite a few seasons where we lost a game early on, only to beat that team in the playoffs. I do agree the seasons are long though, and they are starting earlier and earlier. We are in our 4th game week, though not as bad as the OP scenarios, because our season ends the week before Thanksgiving. Our state champ will play 12-14 games total. A few years ago that could have been as high as 15. I've coached state championship teams. It was a wonderful experience BUT..... In my freshman year in HS, 1967, PA didn't have a playoff system. The small school that I "played" for (I was on the roster. That's about it) finished 6-3 and won our district championship. Lost to all the big schools we played; beat the small ones. Do you really think that the kids on the state championship teams were really any happier and prouder than we were? |
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Playoffs?
Sept 5, 2023 19:05:14 GMT -6
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Post by cqmiller on Sept 5, 2023 19:05:14 GMT -6
State championship games here are the week before Thanksgiving. Snow and basketball season make it that early.
In 15 weeks (10 season and 5 post) pretty much only teams with 1st round bye make it that far anyway, and most teams only play 9 regular season with a week off somewhere.
Playing 13 games in 15 weeks isn't horrible, but it's more the inequity of games that's the issue. 90% of games are running clocks at half these days. You get 2 or 3 actual games each Friday. That's what makes it seem forever... hard to get thru week when you have a 70 point win/loss coming Friday night.
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Post by coachwoodall on Sept 5, 2023 19:07:04 GMT -6
Now that I've been retired for a few years I've had time to reflect about a lot of things. Recently, one topic that I've thought about is the value of the HS playoffs. I'm thinking that the season is just too damn long. Here in NC they've already played 3 regular season games before Labor Day. PA (Where I grew up) and VA (Where I coached) have played 2. All three states play their championship games in mid-December. Is this all really valuable and necessary? Your thoughts? Not sure about NC, but SC starts falll camp/practice the week of August that is mostly August..... 18 weeks before the 1st weekend in December -- State Championships weekend. To figure the season, take the 1st weekend in December and then count back 18 weeks. The HSL has allowed the 1st practices to start the Friday before that August week..... because we have a 'week zero' game week. Week zero is in the 3rd week(ish... see above for the early start dates), you lose a scrimmage/jamboree but that allows you to have a 'bye week' depending on how you schedule. Almost everyone has a 'week zero' game to manipulate the schedule to have a week of rest in the middle of the season....... Some of the also rans work their bye to the last week of the season to get done early. We take a week Zero game and are on our 4th game this week. We will have an open week 2 weeks before the playoffs start. Our seasons, and open off seasons, and playoffs getting into the next season, season overlap are a mess. I worked at a small school that shared almost every athlete used to have to cancel basketball scrimmages and even some games when we went deep into the playoffs for football. Is the season too long? IDK...... the kids play the game to play games. Are you asking are there too many teams making the playoffs..... almost always it will be YES. Are you asking if the time for participation that restricts the kids from doing other things.... almost always will be YES. Sometimes the biggest problems with our games is the coaches...... |
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Post by bobgoodman on Sept 6, 2023 8:25:34 GMT -6
Is the season too long? IDK...... the kids play the game to play games. So why not add more games for the also-rans as well? In states that have a legitimate statewide championship based on knock-outs, there are usually more rounds played than would be the mathematic minimum required to determine a champion out of that many teams in the state. I don't see why teams that didn't win their local circuit's championship should be admitted, since one or more other teams have already proven themselves "better". |
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Post by agap on Sept 6, 2023 8:57:34 GMT -6
We our in week 2. State championships are Thanksgiving weekend usually unless the Vikings happen to play one of those days like they did last year. We have 8 regular season games, 3 section games at the most (most sections don't have 8 teams), and 3 state tournament games at the most.
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Post by nicku on Sept 6, 2023 9:52:38 GMT -6
Texas playoffs are too long. We let too many teams in, 4 from each district. When I was a kid, it was 3. Our older coaches were around when it was 2. I think it takes the value out of winning a district championship. If you play in the title game, you are playing the Th-Sat before Christmas. It's a great spectacle and fun to watch, but just way too long. I wish we would just cut it down to one scrimmage, one non-con game, play your district, and go if we aren't gonna cut down the playoffs a little.
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Post by mrjvi on Sept 6, 2023 11:40:23 GMT -6
In NY, except for LI and NYC, We are either in the 1st game this week or the 2nd if you played a zero week game. If you make it to the state final you will have played 13 games. The 4 times we made it to the final were very exciting for the kids and coaches but we were really tired after those seasons. If you don't make your sectional final you end up playing 9 games.
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Post by bobgoodman on Sept 6, 2023 12:41:17 GMT -6
Texas playoffs are too long. We let too many teams in, 4 from each district. When I was a kid, it was 3. Our older coaches were around when it was 2. I think it takes the value out of winning a district championship. Why should it have been more than 1? If the district has a champion, they're already supposed to be better than anyone else from that district, so why not eliminate the rest? Seems at least as good as using single elimination. |
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Post by nicku on Sept 6, 2023 12:46:21 GMT -6
Texas playoffs are too long. We let too many teams in, 4 from each district. When I was a kid, it was 3. Our older coaches were around when it was 2. I think it takes the value out of winning a district championship. Why should it have been more than 1? If the district has a champion, they're already supposed to be better than anyone else from that district, so why not eliminate the rest? Seems at least as good as using single elimination. I don't disagree...but I do think there is normally more than one team in each league that deserves to be in. |
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Post by blb on Sept 6, 2023 13:59:02 GMT -6
Why should it have been more than 1? If the district has a champion, they're already supposed to be better than anyone else from that district, so why not eliminate the rest? Seems at least as good as using single elimination. I don't disagree...but I do think there is normally more than one team in each league that deserves to be in. Devil's advocate: If a team can't win its own league, why does it deserve a spot in a playoff to determine state championship?? |
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Post by fantom on Sept 6, 2023 14:45:38 GMT -6
I don't disagree...but I do think there is normally more than one team in each league that deserves to be in. Devil's advocate: If a team can't win its own league, why does it deserve a spot in a playoff to determine state championship?? Because some leagues are a lot better than some others. It's not always because of something as subjective as quality, either. Years ago only the four district winners in the region made the playoffs. District were determined by district record. Our district had 10 teams, another had five. So, a four-win team could make the playoffs while a 9-1 team was done. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Sept 6, 2023 15:40:46 GMT -6
Devil's advocate: If a team can't win its own league, why does it deserve a spot in a playoff to determine state championship?? Because some leagues are a lot better than some others. It's not always because of something as subjective as quality, either. Years ago only the four district winners in the region made the playoffs. District were determined by district record. Our district had 10 teams, another had five. So, a four-win team could make the playoffs while a 9-1 team was done. So one team has an easier qualification than another. So what? As to the also-rans, whether they were 2nd of 5 or 2nd of 10, there was still a 1st place team in each case. In the various rounds of playoffs, some teams will have an easier time than others too, but if A beats B, why should it matter how good B was? If playoffs are to reward performance in the regular season, why not substitute bowl games for those 2nd place teams? You could probably create some better matchups for them in bowls than in a championship tournament. If playoffs are to determine a champion, keep them simple even if "unfair". I'm not claiming playoffs are reproducible, producing the same outcome each time if you could re-run them. I'm just saying they're definitive, and admitting less-than-champions from the local circuit makes them less than definitive. |
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Post by carookie on Sept 6, 2023 16:38:57 GMT -6
We play our 4th game of the year this Friday. In Southern California everyone plays 10 regular season games, followed by a 16 team (so max 4 round) playoffs; of which about half the teams make it.
This used to be it, but now they add in the the state playoff rounds (an extra two rds possible). I'd be fine if they got rid of those last two rounds, as there is no organized classification, they take all the CIF winners (after 14 weeks) and match them up based on where they think each team is equitably matched.
So say you are in the division 3 state playoff round, you could be going up against a school twice your size just because they think its an even matchup. Kind of takes away the meaning in my eyes.
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Post by tog on Sept 6, 2023 18:37:32 GMT -6
I don't disagree...but I do think there is normally more than one team in each league that deserves to be in. Devil's advocate: If a team can't win its own league, why does it deserve a spot in a playoff to determine state championship?? many have |
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Post by fantom on Sept 6, 2023 18:49:01 GMT -6
Devil's advocate: If a team can't win its own league, why does it deserve a spot in a playoff to determine state championship?? many have In 2005 we were unbeaten until a team that we'd beaten beat us in the playoffs then won states. In 2006 we returned the favor. |
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nndman
Freshmen Member
Posts: 27 
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Post by nndman on Sept 6, 2023 20:49:59 GMT -6
Here in Virginia, you get two preseason scrimmages then 11 weeks to play 10 games, then 3 rounds of regional playoffs followed by 2 rounds of state playoffs. In the way back when era of small school football in Va (that's what I grew up on and still follow) it was rare for teams in the eastern part of the state to have a bye week during the season. They played 10 straight weeks. However, small schools in Southwest Virginia played that week 0 game. Today, all of the small schools in Eastern Virginia have a bye week with the exception of one. Plus we have six classifications. The region that I follow has 11 teams with 8 making the postseason. There's another region that has seven or eight teams that play football and they take only 6 to the postseason.
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Post by bobgoodman on Sept 6, 2023 21:15:23 GMT -6
We play our 4th game of the year this Friday. In Southern California everyone plays 10 regular season games, followed by a 16 team (so max 4 round) playoffs; of which about half the teams make it. So they play 10 games to knock out half the teams, and then they play single games to each knock out half the teams? What sense does that make? Still not as bad as the setup nndman described in Virginia, where between 2 regions they had 18 or 19 regions and knocked out only 4 or 5 teams by season play. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Sept 6, 2023 21:19:31 GMT -6
In 2005 we were unbeaten until a team that we'd beaten beat us in the playoffs then won states. In 2006 we returned the favor. So each of those years you played them twice, and the first game didn't knock either of you out but the second game did. Why should the second game count and the first one not? If you counted the games equally, wouldn't you then need a rubber game to decide between you? |
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Post by bobgoodman on Sept 6, 2023 21:27:43 GMT -6
We play our 4th game of the year this Friday. In Southern California everyone plays 10 regular season games, followed by a 16 team (so max 4 round) playoffs; of which about half the teams make it. So they play 10 games to knock out half the teams, and then they play single games to each knock out half the teams? What sense does that make? Still not as bad as the setup nndman described in Virginia, where between 2 regions they had 18 or 19 regions and knocked out only 4 or 5 teams by season play. I meant 18 or 19 teams. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 6, 2023 22:47:02 GMT -6
In 2005 we were unbeaten until a team that we'd beaten beat us in the playoffs then won states. In 2006 we returned the favor. So each of those years you played them twice, and the first game didn't knock either of you out but the second game did. Why should the second game count and the first one not? If you counted the games equally, wouldn't you then need a rubber game to decide between you? Well Bob, that just isn't how tournaments (which is what a playoff system is) work. |
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RnS-OC
Sophomore Member
Posts: 117
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Post by RnS-OC on Sept 7, 2023 0:10:58 GMT -6
Due to scheduling, playoff format, and varying success, I've had seasons anywhere from 8-14 games long. I think the sweet spot is 9-12 games for a season. An ideal season for me would be 8-9 games plus 2-3 playoff games. In my State, the length of the season is 16 game weekends including the state playoffs and pre-season (out of conference games). If it were up to me, I wouldn't change much except push the first game week back a week to require more padded practice days.
Week 1 - Out of Conference
Week 2 - Out of Conference
Week 3 - Out of Conference
Week 4 - Conference
Week 5 - Conference
Week 6 - Conference
Week 7 - Conference
Week 8 - Conference
Week 9 - Conference
Week 10 - Conference
Week 11 - Conference Semi-Final (if necessary, 2 vs. 3 seed)
Week 12 - Conference Championship
Week 13 - State Semi-Final
Week 14 - OFF
Week 15 - State Championship
Mix in a couple byes and you're looking at 8 games if you don't make playoffs and a maximum of 12 if you get to the state title game and have to play a conference semi-final.
Truthfully, my biggest gripe is requiring a conference title game if one team goes undefeated and plays everyone in the conference during the regular season. I get it for large leagues where you have multiple divisions, but for smaller leagues it just seems unnecessary. We've had multiple seasons where our conference title game was against a team we had already beaten twice during the regular season.
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Post by CS on Sept 7, 2023 4:10:56 GMT -6
In 2005 we were unbeaten until a team that we'd beaten beat us in the playoffs then won states. In 2006 we returned the favor. So each of those years you played them twice, and the first game didn't knock either of you out but the second game did. Why should the second game count and the first one not? If you counted the games equally, wouldn't you then need a rubber game to decide between you? In our conference playoff last season the 1,2,3 team in our district were all in the semi finals. The 2nd place team in our district won state |
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Post by bobgoodman on Sept 7, 2023 6:24:16 GMT -6
So each of those years you played them twice, and the first game didn't knock either of you out but the second game did. Why should the second game count and the first one not? If you counted the games equally, wouldn't you then need a rubber game to decide between you? Well Bob, that just isn't how tournaments (which is what a playoff system is) work. I know, so why is there so much reliance on elimination tournaments to find a champion, instead of round robin play? There are too many entrants at the base of the playoff pyramid, and it doesn't have to be this way. |
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Post by fantom on Sept 7, 2023 13:34:06 GMT -6
Here's my point and maybe it's just an old guy who wants everybody off of my lawn but I don't see how having a playoff is better for anybody than just having a football season then moving on to the next season. Know what nobody ever talked about? "Meaningless" games." You played each game just to play a game.
We were perfectly happy to play nine or ten games them maybe one regional "bowl" type of game. Was college football really worse when they played 11 games then maybe a bowl game?
And the irony is that we play all of these extra games at a time when the safety of the game is a huge issue.
Well, I doubt anything will change but that's how I feel.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Sept 8, 2023 10:19:46 GMT -6
Here's my point and maybe it's just an old guy who wants everybody off of my lawn but I don't see how having a playoff is better for anybody than just having a football season then moving on to the next season. Know what nobody ever talked about? "Meaningless" games." You played each game just to play a game. We were perfectly happy to play nine or ten games them maybe one regional "bowl" type of game. Was college football really worse when they played 11 games then maybe a bowl game? And the irony is that we play all of these extra games at a time when the safety of the game is a huge issue. Well, I doubt anything will change but that's how I feel. fantom I'm with you... "Get off my lawn!"
My football experience was better 30 years ago. We played our conference... we had about 4 classifications represented... every game was big; every game was a rivalry. Playoffs were tough to make- and if you lost a game or two... or lost the wrong game, you didn't make it.
We won the state championship one year as the #3 seed from our region (we had a 3 way tie for #1... stupid tie-breaker). If we would have been denied a playoff spot, I would have been upset, but life would go on (as it did in 1998 when that exact thing happened to us... we started 0-2 losing to the state champ and state runner-up then ran the table over a semi-final team and a quarterfinal team... but didn't get in the playoffs. I am still alive though- so it didn't kill me after all and I still have great memories of that team.)
Now- we are traveling all over, past 10 towns we could play but never do because we have 20 more or less boys in our school.
We are playing our 4th game tonight. 4th. Years ago, Sept. 8 would be a week 1 game (maybe week 2).
I love football still... still love coaching after 33 years in it. But it is getting harder to enjoy. Half of our season is in ridiculous heat (relative, I know... but for us, it is hot), kids are not coming out because: we start practice 3 weeks before school and they want to keep their pretty well paying job longer... or because AAU coaches have convinced out 5'9 sophomore shooting guard he had D2 basketball potential... or because all kids who play hockey need to do so year round to make the NHL (side note: our hockey team has won ONE varsity game in four years), or because e-sports... etc.
Our game is dying and we continue to do things that hinder, rather than help it.
But maybe I'm just old and cranky and frustrated... and we play the #3 team in the state tonight (we played #1 and #5 already) and I don't see us stopping them since they have 4 WRs and a back faster than anyone we have in our school.
End of rant (sorry... but it was very cathartic for me at least).
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Post by paydirt18 on Sept 8, 2023 10:43:25 GMT -6
In Wisconsin, we start practice first week of August and play a nine game reg season schedule. If you were to make it to the Finals, you end up with 14 total games and they schedule the championships to be done the night before deer season begins - yes you read that right.
I think 14 total is perfect, however I would love to push for a later start and for the season to go later in the fall.
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Post by coachwoodall on Sept 8, 2023 12:28:04 GMT -6
Our state divides the playoff brackets into Up State and Low state. Four teams from all regions/conferences qualify (kind of..... have a couple of really large regions/conferences that will have five from the different divisions).
In 2016 all four of our region/conference teams were playing each other in the quarterfinals of our side of the bracket.
Traditionally the teams that make up our region/conference are some of the best teams in our division.
I still think that we let too many teams in the playoffs.
By the way we lost in the Semis, the most frustrating game of my career.....
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