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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 23, 2023 16:22:15 GMT -6
Does anyone think that the current state of business affairs regarding the RB position is going to filter down/impact HS kids? Kids not wanting to play RB because the position is significantly less valuable at higher levels...which will likely filter down to college levels...which then may filter to HS?
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Post by irishdog on Jul 23, 2023 16:44:55 GMT -6
Call me old school. I don't give a rat's @$$ what the pros do. Professional football is a business. Big-time college football is a business. And unfortunately...some high schools are now in that very same business.
I was a HIGH SCHOOL football coach. It was my responsibility to build a program that enabled my athletes to be competitive with other HIGH SCHOOL football programs. A program that promoted teamwork, sportsmanship, respect, responsibility, accountability, and build character. NOT to develop D1 or professional athletes. A program the athletes, students, parents, school, and school community could be proud of. My responsibility as the coach was to provide an environment where the athletes had the best chance at achieving success. Long story short...I believed we had to be able to run the football on offense. You need a good O Line and RB's to pull it off. That said, I always placed a premium on the RB position, and frankly, I believe a number of boys ended up in my program because of it.
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Post by blb on Jul 23, 2023 16:46:25 GMT -6
Does anyone think that the current state of business affairs regarding the RB position is going to filter down/impact HS kids? Kids not wanting to play RB because the position is significantly less valuable at higher levels...which will likely filter down to college levels...which then may filter to HS? Yes.
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Post by 19delta on Jul 23, 2023 16:50:15 GMT -6
Does anyone think that the current state of business affairs regarding the RB position is going to filter down/impact HS kids? Kids not wanting to play RB because the position is significantly less valuable at higher levels...which will likely filter down to college levels...which then may filter to HS? Yeah. I think it's a real possibility. I would think that many of those kids who are Power 5 type athletes will not want want to play RB in college, even if that is their best position. I can see most of these kids wanting to play LB in college, assuming that is the defensive position of most HS RBs.
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Post by 19delta on Jul 23, 2023 16:53:23 GMT -6
Call me old school. I don't give a rat's @$$ what the pros do. Professional football is a business. Big-time college football is a business. And unfortunately...some high schools are now in that very same business. I was a HIGH SCHOOL football coach. It was my responsibility to build a program that enabled my athletes to be competitive with other HIGH SCHOOL football programs. A program that promoted teamwork, sportsmanship, respect, responsibility, accountability, and build character. NOT to develop D1 or professional athletes. A program the athletes, students, parents, school, and school community could be proud of. My responsibility as the coach was to provide an environment where the athletes had the best chance at achieving success. Long story short...I believed we had to be able to run the football on offense. You need a good O Line and RB's to pull it off. That said, I always placed a premium on the RB position, and frankly, I believe a number of boys ended up in my program because of it. Generally agreed with this. Here in NW Illinois, most HS have an enrollment between 200-400 kids. Handful of D3 guys. Maybe a D1 guy who is a genetic freak once a generation. But we are WAY off the recruiting path for Power 5 conferences. Lots of schools still running Wing T, Wishbone, and Power I offenses. At those schools, the RBs are typically the guys who are Prom King...
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 23, 2023 16:58:20 GMT -6
Call me old school. I don't give a rat's @$$ what the pros do. Professional football is a business. Big-time college football is a business. And unfortunately...some high schools are now in that very same business. I was a HIGH SCHOOL football coach. It was my responsibility to build a program that enabled my athletes to be competitive with other HIGH SCHOOL football programs. A program that promoted teamwork, sportsmanship, respect, responsibility, accountability, and build character. NOT to develop D1 or professional athletes. A program the athletes, students, parents, school, and school community could be proud of. My responsibility as the coach was to provide an environment where the athletes had the best chance at achieving success. Long story short...I believed we had to be able to run the football on offense. You need a good O Line and RB's to pull it off. That said, I always placed a premium on the RB position, and frankly, I believe a number of boys ended up in my program because of it. I don't disagree with any of your sentiments. But right now, I can easily see kids NOT wanting to play the RB position. I have witnessed this recently with basketball... Steph Curry has fundamentally changed the way basically is played/enjoyed, and I have seen kids decide not to play basketball because they would not play that way. It doesn't make the coach wrong for playing in the style that he is most accustomed to. But kids not playing would still impact the HS game.
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Post by irishdog on Jul 23, 2023 19:09:43 GMT -6
Call me old school. I don't give a rat's @$$ what the pros do. Professional football is a business. Big-time college football is a business. And unfortunately...some high schools are now in that very same business. I was a HIGH SCHOOL football coach. It was my responsibility to build a program that enabled my athletes to be competitive with other HIGH SCHOOL football programs. A program that promoted teamwork, sportsmanship, respect, responsibility, accountability, and build character. NOT to develop D1 or professional athletes. A program the athletes, students, parents, school, and school community could be proud of. My responsibility as the coach was to provide an environment where the athletes had the best chance at achieving success. Long story short...I believed we had to be able to run the football on offense. You need a good O Line and RB's to pull it off. That said, I always placed a premium on the RB position, and frankly, I believe a number of boys ended up in my program because of it. I don't disagree with any of your sentiments. But right now, I can easily see kids NOT wanting to play the RB position. I have witnessed this recently with basketball... Steph Curry has fundamentally changed the way basically is played/enjoyed, and I have seen kids decide not to play basketball because they would not play that way. It doesn't make the coach wrong for playing in the style that he is most accustomed to. But kids not playing would still impact the HS game. Not familiar with the way Steph Curry plays basketball because I don't watch pro basketball. Haven't watched since the 80s. What is it that he has fundamentally changed about the way the game is played/enjoyed?
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 23, 2023 20:08:22 GMT -6
I don't disagree with any of your sentiments. But right now, I can easily see kids NOT wanting to play the RB position. I have witnessed this recently with basketball... Steph Curry has fundamentally changed the way basically is played/enjoyed, and I have seen kids decide not to play basketball because they would not play that way. It doesn't make the coach wrong for playing in the style that he is most accustomed to. But kids not playing would still impact the HS game. Not familiar with the way Steph Curry plays basketball because I don't watch pro basketball. Haven't watched since the 80s. What is it that he has fundamentally changed about the way the game is played/enjoyed? Long range shooting. To put in some perspective for you, Larry Birds best season with regards to 3 pt shots saw him attempt an average of 3.1 attempts a game, connecting on 41.4%. Larry's career 3pt attempt average was less than 2 a game, with 37.6% accuracy. In contrast, Curry's most prolific season with regards to 3 point shooing saw him attempt 12.7 a game, making 42.1% League wide, the NBA has witnessed 3pt shooting explode and become the arguably the predominant weapon in the game since Curry's arrival in 2009. Prior to Curry, the league averaged 18 3pt attempts a game. Since Curry (and more importantly, the players who have grown up modeling their play after his) that average has jumped to over 34 attempts per game for each of the last 4 years (including a record high 35 a game in 2022) at well over a 35% accuracy rate compared to below 30% when Bird was in his prime. At the NBA level, his influence has changed the style of play with players who have "limitless range" now having the green light to let if fly anywhere on the court. The influence can be seen at all levels. For example it was on display during the NCAA Women's Basketball season, and the Div 1 tournament in particular, where player of the year Caitlyn Clark attempted over 9 3 point shots a game for the season, and shot 8-19 for 30 points in the NCAA championship game. In the context of this discussion, basically kids want to run up and down the court and shoot. If they aren't going to do that, some just won't play. Regardless of what we as coaches may think about that decision, is does impact things, and I was wondering if the football coaches here thought the same may happen regarding running backs.
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Post by nhsehs on Jul 23, 2023 20:28:20 GMT -6
The sentiment will filter down but will be counter-balanced by the relative inability of HS QB’s to make the throws WRs depend on. RBs at the HS level is and will remain the most impactful offensive skill position because of the simplicity with which he can take over a game.
RBs in the NFL are marginalized because of rule changes, which were changed because of revolutionary QB play.
HS football, on the whole, doesn’t have that, so the changes as far as positional impact are mitigated.
Now, HS players aren’t rational so yes, even with all that, the sentiment will filter down and we’ll have to deal with it.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 23, 2023 20:42:03 GMT -6
The sentiment will filter down but will be counter-balanced by the relative inability of HS QB’s to make the throws WRs depend on. RBs at the HS level is and will remain the most impactful offensive skill position because of the simplicity with which he can take over a game. RBs in the NFL are marginalized because of rule changes, which were changed because of revolutionary QB play. HS football, on the whole, doesn’t have that, so the changes as far as positional impact are mitigated. Now, HS players aren’t rational so yes, even with all that, the sentiment will filter down and we’ll have to deal with it. The last sentence is what I believe will happen as well. Even though from 14-18 year old RBs will still likely be the most impactful position on the vast majority of teams, kids will say--nah I want to be OBJ. I want to be Devonte etc. Last year I returned to coaching to help a friend with a JR High Club. He is a dbl te dbl wing guy, and there were some kids who are not coming back this year because to them, that wasn't fun. Years ago, I probably would have thought differently, but in my current "old man" state, I get it. Heck, I quit coaching football at the Div 1 College level because I didn't enjoy it. Then I stopped coaching HS ball for the same reason. Doesn't matter that others did/do.
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Post by agap on Jul 23, 2023 21:22:09 GMT -6
Short answer: no. Receivers aren’t winning many awards in high school here in Minnesota.
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Post by 3rdandlong on Jul 23, 2023 21:58:19 GMT -6
It’s already happening. I kind of reference this issue in the Moving a WR to OL thread. Guys don’t want to play RB as much as they wanted to in previous years.
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Post by echoofthewhistle on Jul 24, 2023 4:18:11 GMT -6
I guess you could see it. The problem is RB and WR don't have as much carryover in body types as people think, especially as you climb levels. I agree with the QB issue in HS effecting this.
My counter point to those saying these kids will quit if they don't play the position they want. Is it good for your team or even the individual to cater to them? Football has lots of less desirable roles that need to be filled. How do you ask other kids to fill these jobs if you can't make a kid play RB?
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Post by groundchuck on Jul 24, 2023 5:41:39 GMT -6
1. Don't care. 2. No. Running the ball in HS football is still king.
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Post by irishdog on Jul 24, 2023 7:09:04 GMT -6
Not familiar with the way Steph Curry plays basketball because I don't watch pro basketball. Haven't watched since the 80s. What is it that he has fundamentally changed about the way the game is played/enjoyed? Long range shooting. To put in some perspective for you, Larry Birds best season with regards to 3 pt shots saw him attempt an average of 3.1 attempts a game, connecting on 41.4%. Larry's career 3pt attempt average was less than 2 a game, with 37.6% accuracy. In contrast, Curry's most prolific season with regards to 3 point shooing saw him attempt 12.7 a game, making 42.1% League wide, the NBA has witnessed 3pt shooting explode and become the arguably the predominant weapon in the game since Curry's arrival in 2009. Prior to Curry, the league averaged 18 3pt attempts a game. Since Curry (and more importantly, the players who have grown up modeling their play after his) that average has jumped to over 34 attempts per game for each of the last 4 years (including a record high 35 a game in 2022) at well over a 35% accuracy rate compared to below 30% when Bird was in his prime. At the NBA level, this his influence has changed the style of play with players who have "limitless range" have the green light to let if fly anywhere on the court. The influence can be seen at all levels. For example it was on display during the NCAA Women's Basketball season, and the Div 1 tournament in particular, where player of the year Caitlyn Clark attempted over 9 3 point shots a game for the season, and shot 8-19 for 30 points in the NCAA championship game. In the context of this discussion, basically kids want to run up and down the court and shoot. If they aren't going to do that, some just won't play. Regardless of what we as coaches may think about that decision, is does impact things, and I was wondering if the football coaches here thought the same may happen regarding running backs. Thanks for sharing that. Tell you what. If this is what the future looks like for the game we have known and loved, and if I were still coaching today, I would be looking high and low for a 6 man football coaching gig where every kid on the field is eligible to catch a pass and score.
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Post by tripsclosed on Jul 24, 2023 7:49:38 GMT -6
I guess you could see it. The problem is RB and WR don't have as much carryover in body types as people think, especially as you climb levels. I agree with the QB issue in HS effecting this. My counter point to those saying these kids will quit if they don't play the position they want. Is it good for your team or even the individual to cater to them? Football has lots of less desirable roles that need to be filled. How do you ask other kids to fill these jobs if you can't make a kid play RB? At the end of the day, I lean toward: call their bluff if they want to play WR and not RB. If everyone wants to play WR, CB, and LB, tell em the best guys at each spot will play those positions. If they dont like their positioning, they can sit on the bench. If they have legitimate talent and could get a scholarship at the FBS level playing RB in HS, they are an idiot for turning that opportunity down...Yeah I get them being an idiot could hurt you, but with HS still being run dominant, what can you really do? Run 5 wides every play? Lol
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 24, 2023 8:05:45 GMT -6
Thanks for sharing that. Tell you what. If this is what the future looks like for the game we have known and loved, and if I were still coaching today, I would be looking high and low for a 6 man football coaching gig where every kid on the field is eligible to catch a pass and score. Do you mean that? I certainly respect that kind of foresight, and it shows your true love for COACHING the kids. I think most would be saying they would rather not coach than have to coach something that "isn't there style". Kudos for taking the 180 approach and saying - let me go meet the kids where they are.
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Post by irishdog on Jul 24, 2023 8:37:41 GMT -6
Thanks for sharing that. Tell you what. If this is what the future looks like for the game we have known and loved, and if I were still coaching today, I would be looking high and low for a 6 man football coaching gig where every kid on the field is eligible to catch a pass and score. Do you mean that? I certainly respect that kind of foresight, and it shows your true love for COACHING the kids. I think most would be saying they would rather not coach than have to coach something that "isn't there style". Kudos for taking the 180 approach and saying - let me go meet the kids where they are. I meant every word.
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Post by Down 'n Out on Jul 24, 2023 10:42:56 GMT -6
Does anyone think that the current state of business affairs regarding the RB position is going to filter down/impact HS kids? Kids not wanting to play RB because the position is significantly less valuable at higher levels...which will likely filter down to college levels...which then may filter to HS? In my experience it's already happening. Every Back I've got wants to be a Reciever. Even the kids that we want to throw the occasional Bubble and have run Jet want to be WRs that carry the ball, not RBs that catch the ball.
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Post by carookie on Jul 24, 2023 14:16:25 GMT -6
I think there is an important variable to account for here, positional numbers. If a kid wants to be a WR as opposed to a RB maybe its because they want a greater opportunity to play. Most teams around here rotate through about 5-6 WRs per game, but at most 3 RBs.
Twice the chance to see the field regardless of whats going on in the NFL.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Jul 25, 2023 8:39:51 GMT -6
I think there is an important variable to account for here, positional numbers. If a kid wants to be a WR as opposed to a RB maybe its because they want a greater opportunity to play. Most teams around here rotate through about 5-6 WRs per game, but at most 3 RBs. Twice the chance to see the field regardless of whats going on in the NFL. Possibly... but by that logic we wouldn't have the amount of kids who want to play "wide receiver" in a program that is largely 3 back and 2 TE on offense...
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 25, 2023 8:53:44 GMT -6
I think there is an important variable to account for here, positional numbers. If a kid wants to be a WR as opposed to a RB maybe its because they want a greater opportunity to play. Most teams around here rotate through about 5-6 WRs per game, but at most 3 RBs. Twice the chance to see the field regardless of whats going on in the NFL. I think that is a different discussion. You are talking about kids whose primary ambition is to get on the field. I am talking about kids whose primary ambition would be to play WR. Also, for the vast majority of HS, if you are good enough to get on the field somewhere, the COACHES will generally move you into that position. The 15 year old kid doesn't need to say "hmm.. if I am a WR, I might get to play more". The COACH will say "Hey Jimmy is one of our top 14-15 guys. He needs to get on the field. Lets look at him at _____".
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Post by tog on Jul 26, 2023 22:51:40 GMT -6
Does anyone think that the current state of business affairs regarding the RB position is going to filter down/impact HS kids? Kids not wanting to play RB because the position is significantly less valuable at higher levels...which will likely filter down to college levels...which then may filter to HS? it certainly will "my boy aint playing rb" bs for this very reason, thus making coaches turn to sling it offenses even if it is not what is best for their teams, just sad what has shaped our game
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Post by coachjm on Jul 27, 2023 4:54:53 GMT -6
We are testing your theory and TBH I have no idea how it will end up but I do have some data points....
Took over a school that had struggled to win many games the last 10 years. The previous HC was here for 2 years had played in the NFL, ran a spread offense that was very open and had 2 qbs transfer in each of his two years one of which came from Oregon (we are in Michigan, he had come from Oregon..... Ironically...) we are in Metro Detroit just west of the city in a lower social economic area. Many Football players have been transferring out of our District (2 HS) for some time to some of the more successful programs in the state...
Anyhow, we have installed the Power T/Double Wing and this is what we will be doing here during my tenure.... When I first met the kids I joked that I had 49 WR, 1 OL, 2 QBs, and 1 RB when I asked what position they want to play. Although that isn't completely accurate it is close... I had kids with OL bodies telling me they wanted to be a WR and almost all the current RBs had the same view....
Our approach was we are gonna focus on making you the best football player we can, this means tackling, coverage, fitting, ball carrying techniques, catching, throwing, blocking ect.
We are heading into our second year, our numbers are very good better then they have been in a long time, our retention has been good as we have been fortunate to not have kids transfer out (also nobody has transferred in either) since we got here (that might change tomorrow... Never know in this area as their is heavy movement on all fronts)..... The local youth program that goes up through 8th grade has asked to implement our schemes and work with us learning them... We have lots of guys that want to be running backs and tight ends.....
I do think much of this is we have some really good men and mentors coaching in our program, and a district that is working hard to make sure kids needs are met, the district is ensuring there are meals after practice and transportation home if needed..... I'm certain we have some kids who wish we spread it out and I know we have some dads that feel that way, I have no idea how that will end however, the one thing I do know is the vast majority of the kids in our program are wanting to learn how to be BETTER football players, improve their skills, and play for each other and really don't talk much about our scheme or position much on either side of the ball...
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Post by sweep26 on Jul 27, 2023 7:16:32 GMT -6
We are testing your theory and TBH I have no idea how it will end up but I do have some data points.... Took over a school that had struggled to win many games the last 10 years. The previous HC was here for 2 years had played in the NFL, ran a spread offense that was very open and had 2 qbs transfer in each of his two years one of which came from Oregon (we are in Michigan, he had come from Oregon..... Ironically...) we are in Metro Detroit just west of the city in a lower social economic area. Many Football players have been transferring out of our District (2 HS) for some time to some of the more successful programs in the state... Anyhow, we have installed the Power T/Double Wing and this is what we will be doing here during my tenure.... When I first met the kids I joked that I had 49 WR, 1 OL, 2 QBs, and 1 RB when I asked what position they want to play. Although that isn't completely accurate it is close... I had kids with OL bodies telling me they wanted to be a WR and almost all the current RBs had the same view.... Our approach was we are gonna focus on making you the best football player we can, this means tackling, coverage, fitting, ball carrying techniques, catching, throwing, blocking ect. We are heading into our second year, our numbers are very good better then they have been in a long time, our retention has been good as we have been fortunate to not have kids transfer out (also nobody has transferred in either) since we got here (that might change tomorrow... Never know in this area as their is heavy movement on all fronts)..... The local youth program that goes up through 8th grade has asked to implement our schemes and work with us learning them... We have lots of guys that want to be running backs and tight ends..... I do think much of this is we have some really good men and mentors coaching in our program, and a district that is working hard to make sure kids needs are met, the district is ensuring there are meals after practice and transportation home if needed..... I'm certain we have some kids who wish we spread it out and I know we have some dads that feel that way, I have no idea how that will end however, the one thing I do know is the vast majority of the kids in our program are wanting to learn how to be BETTER football players, improve their skills, and play for each other and really don't talk much about our scheme or position much on either side of the ball... Excellent post Coach!! Good luck to you and your squad this year!!
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Post by pitt1980 on Jul 27, 2023 8:15:50 GMT -6
I think there is an important variable to account for here, positional numbers. If a kid wants to be a WR as opposed to a RB maybe its because they want a greater opportunity to play. Most teams around here rotate through about 5-6 WRs per game, but at most 3 RBs. Twice the chance to see the field regardless of whats going on in the NFL. Yeah, the numbers on RBs have never been great, typically 1 guy get a huge fraction of the carries/rep (some places are more democratic than other places). In contrast you almost always have 7 DBs/ LBs (Depending on a guys bodytype, what D is being played) on the field at a time. There are just a lot more snaps to go around.
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Post by wingtol on Jul 27, 2023 11:57:04 GMT -6
It may at some places but for the vast majority of HS football teams RB is still a position of glory. Especially when you think that 94ish percent of kids will never play in college. Most levels of HS running the ball is king. Kids still want that glory. Now maybe if you're dealing with tons of college caliber players a year then maybe it will come in to play
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 27, 2023 12:03:58 GMT -6
It may at some places but for the vast majority of HS football teams RB is still a position of glory. Especially when you think that 94ish percent of kids will never play in college. Most levels of HS running the ball is king. Kids still want that glory. Now maybe if you're dealing with tons of college caliber players a year then maybe it will come in to play Well, that is why I worded my topic as I did. I agree I don't think it will have any significant instantaneous impacts. But in 7 years, if NFL RBs continue the path toward anonymity, and you see guys like Derek Henry and Saquon Barkley (focal points of teams) making a fraction of what WR and QBs on their own teams are making? I think that is going to result in some changes. Maybe not.
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