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Post by coachcalande on Nov 18, 2005 6:11:10 GMT -6
November 18, 2005 at 07:10:20
WHO ARE THE "WINNINGEST" SPREAD TYPE HS COACHES? HOW MANY WINS?
By: calande
Yknow, i have thought about this alot lately...most of the high school guys who have say 150 plus career victories are run first guys. Id like to know about high school coaches that are throw first guys. I know there are some out there....but who are they and where and what kind of win totals do they have? anyone know?
I am not asking about college or pro coaches because they can recruit or draft/trade etc.
_
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Post by pegleg on Nov 18, 2005 8:41:02 GMT -6
Todd Dodge at Southlake Carrol in Dallas has a ton of rings and is ranked #1 in the USA Today poll right now. Sam Harrell at Ennis, TX is on that list too. Those 2 come to mind immediately but I am sure there are more
Holla
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Post by coachcalande on Nov 18, 2005 8:56:51 GMT -6
are they pass first guys? what kind of records are we talking about?...
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Post by pegleg on Nov 18, 2005 9:17:19 GMT -6
Give me a while and I'll look it up. I know Dodge and Harrell have each won at least 3 rings and are definely pass first guys.
Holla
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Post by pegleg on Nov 18, 2005 9:36:46 GMT -6
Here ya go:
Todd Dodge - 100-47 3 rings 1 mythical national title #1 in USA Today right now
Stats through 11 games - QB 199-294-6 3039 41 TDs; leading rusher 753 yards
Sam Harrell - 158-47 3 rings in 5 years
Stats through 11 games - QB 265-378-7 3358 35 TDs; leading rusher 393 yards
Holla
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Post by coachcalande on Nov 18, 2005 11:14:13 GMT -6
cool, thanks...is this a private school?
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Post by Coach Huey on Nov 18, 2005 11:23:30 GMT -6
does it really matter HOW a team moves the ball? do you get more points for throwing it in as opposed to running it in?
most career win guys have been here quite some time. well, the spread offenses are relatively new so those "pass first" guys will probably not have been coaching as long as some of the others on the career list.
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vtjapes
Sophomore Member
Posts: 173
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Post by vtjapes on Nov 18, 2005 11:47:07 GMT -6
Todd Dodge at Southlake Carrol in Dallas has a ton of rings and is ranked #1 in the USA Today poll right now. Sam Harrell at Ennis, TX is on that list too. Those 2 come to mind immediately but I am sure there are more Holla Actually they are #3, Lakeland, Florida (My wife's alma mater) is still #1. www.usatoday.com/sports/preps/football/poll/2005-super25.htmAlthough I don't have a clue how they decide. Is their anyone that has actually saw both of these teams play. |
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Post by pegleg on Nov 18, 2005 12:30:08 GMT -6
both are public schools.
my bad, thought they were #1
Holla
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Post by groundchuck on Nov 18, 2005 12:39:31 GMT -6
On the passing side don't forget Dennis Dunn at Shrevelport Evangel. But I agree with Coach Huey, the guys with more wins have been coaching longer and since the spread in high school as a mainstream offense is a relatively new concept there will be more "run first" guys around. I will say this. One of the winningest coaches in my state almost always ran. Ran, and ran, and ran. But man when they he did decide to call a pass it was complete and they looked as though they could have been a dandy spread team. Winning coaches are also blessed with good athletes. And many (not all) championship caliber teams do both run and throw well. They may run more, and do it better but they can complete passes when they need to.
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Post by Coach Huey on Nov 18, 2005 12:42:25 GMT -6
with all the "advancements" in the game......more and more, a successful team needs to be more multiple (60-40 at least) in order to win on a regular basis over the long haul.
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Post by coachcalande on Nov 18, 2005 13:15:37 GMT -6
Huey- I am interested in any stories about guys that were pass happy winners. yknow, put in their pass offenses, throw the ball 70-80% of the time and got the rags to riches story...then continued for years...know of any like that? doesnt have to be new fangled spread attacks...just throwing the ball, whatever formations. And im more interested in stories about guys who dont get to recruit from a private school. yknow, the schools that arent loaded with division I and II players and still win with a pass first philosophy...know of any?
and Huey, yes it matters...fans want to see passing, Im wanting to hear from guys that really love to put the ball up in the air and what their successes have been.
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Post by Coach Huey on Nov 18, 2005 14:17:14 GMT -6
several years ago - when we were at our peak - we went into every game with the intent to throw it 70% of the time. EVERY game, we scripted & planned to throw it around all night long. guess how many times we hit that #  ....ZERO.... no defense would let us. we were smart enough to realize that we could do other things. when averaged out - and we were considered a "chunk it" team - even our biggest differential was 59% pass for the season. some reasons it was under 60 (even though we wanted to throw) were: we scored points so needed to run ball to run clock and/or not run up the score defense really left themselves vulnerable to various run schemes (draws/zones vs drop-happy teams or traps/option vs blitz-happy teams) when i interview for jobs, people ask "are you a throw the ball guy or a run the ball guy?"....my answer: "i'm a MOVE the ball guy". i'm not arguing any point here - run or pass offense - merely that it seems to be hard for a team to get to that 70% pass ratio through an entire season, much less over several years. obtaining that high a percentage running the ball would be much easier, because even when you score you will still put in backups and CONTINUE running the ball. but, when games get out of hand, the passing usually stops. likewise, if you aren't scoring throwing the ball 70% of the time, why are you throwing it? now, the team's defense could come into play here, if they can't stop anyone then you may have to keep doing what you do to score points (throw). but, still might want to think about slowing the tempo down some by mixing in more run plays as well. i'm sure you're not one of those guys that gets too caught up in how many times you called a run / pass without looking at the WHY did we call that (defense? time in game? situation? etc.) that's why i'm not really arguing for either side.......merely expressing an opinion on why it would be hard to find too many teams with that 70% pass. even texas tech has hard time reaching 70%: 2005 - 67 % pass 2004 - 69 % pass 2003 - 69 % pass 2002 - 67 % pass |
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Post by groundchuck on Nov 18, 2005 14:40:49 GMT -6
Do you think that eventially we will see the pendulum swing back toward wishbone, triple option, and smashmouth football? It seems like all things in history are cyclical.
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Post by Coach Huey on Nov 18, 2005 15:48:01 GMT -6
chuck..........it is very plausible, yes. think major reason people went to spread stuff (early on, at least) was because it was different, defenses were "behind" defending it so to speak. as defenses have adapted, especially to spread attacks, it stands to reason that we could see the "reverse" where teams are going to wishbone, true triple option, misdirection & that type of thing to be different.
still, i believe that the "future" of football - at least at the higher levels - will stay more balanced. teams needing the ability to be able to both throw & run......offensive attacks being able to incorporate several types of schemes into their game plan.
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Post by coachcalande on Nov 18, 2005 16:51:04 GMT -6
ground chuck....we are gonna just see more and more "spread single wing" marriages. qbs who can count and call the right play. they will be the best athlete and run option, power stuff much like the ol sw and mix it with run and shoot ideas...more and more. but there will always be a "Pittsburgh Steelers" team to show folks the right way to get it done  |
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Post by groundchuck on Nov 18, 2005 20:45:50 GMT -6
Today I saw the WI D-1 title game and Wisconsin Rapids used the shotgun double slot almost the entire 2nd half and ran the triple option from it like DeMeo describes in his book and video (for those of you familiar with it.) Th first half they were all wishbone. Same plays but spread out a little more.
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Post by mitch on Nov 21, 2005 14:19:50 GMT -6
Coach Huey,
Your comment about a team needing to be more diversified to win consistently really dumbfounded me. I know that teams like Ennis and Southlake Carrol are the premier teams in TX right now, and the spread offenses are all the rage. However, I know for every Ennis that throws the ball 60-70% of the time and wins, there are 5 Converse Judsons, Smithson Valleys, Katys, etc. that run the ball 75-80% of the time and are always perennial powers. Do you really believe these type of teams are going to have to change there philosophies to win consitently?
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Post by tog on Nov 21, 2005 15:10:40 GMT -6
I would say that Smithson Valley is more balanced than that. I think one thing to keep in mind is that many teams have the talent to just run all over their opponents throughout district but once they meet someone that is as talented as they or more so, they had better be balanced or they will get beat. If not balanced at least having the appearance of balance to keep the other team from totally stacking the box with defenders.
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Post by Coach Huey on Nov 21, 2005 17:10:09 GMT -6
get a hold of the stats of a team. we all assume southlake throws 70% of the time because they are so good at it. i'm not saying they don't....but, i would like to have a little more factual statistics behind the statements. likewise, does smithson valley actually run it 80% of the time? i don't know, but i would like to have someone post the actual percentages to help support it.
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Post by tog on Nov 21, 2005 17:14:26 GMT -6
Smithson Valley is not 80% run. They aren't 50/50 but they are base oneback two te and throw it around well.
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Post by futurecoach on Nov 21, 2005 18:03:36 GMT -6
Gus Malzahn for sure. Shiloh Christian and Springdale AR. Not the winningest in the state of Arkansas but could be if he stays at the high school level. Of course it will be tough to over take Frank McCellan (ran the wing t) from Barton AR. I'm pretty sure Malzahn is near 150 wins.
Here are some of Malzahn's stats
Record: 110-31-1, 11 years
Coaching experience: Hughes, 1991-96 (28-17);
Shiloh Christian 1997-2000 (63-8-1); Springdale
2001-present (19-5).
Accomplishments: Six state final appearances
Hughes, 1994; Shiloh Christian 1997-2000;
Springdale, 2002), averaged 6,000 yards of
offense per season, two quarterbacks (Rhett
Lashlee and Josh Floyd) have set national passing
records.
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Post by coachcalande on Nov 21, 2005 19:03:07 GMT -6
yeah, i dont think you have to be balanced at all...have seen too many teams that just pound folks with wing-t, wishbone or single wing/double wing attacks. teams that throw the ball less than 5 times a game can win too. but i am looking for that guy that took over an 0-10 team and turned it around quickly not by spreading to run, but by THROWING THE ROCK DANG NEAR EVERY DOWN.
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Post by boblucy on Nov 21, 2005 19:11:47 GMT -6
Mark Whipple(now Steelers QB coach) took over at UMass in 1998 and led them to a 1-AA National Title after a 2-9 1997 season, they threw 50 passes a game that year on the way to the title.
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Post by Coach Huey on Nov 21, 2005 20:47:10 GMT -6
also, don't think that balance is truly 50-50.........anything shy of 60-40 run/pass or vice versa would be (in my mind) a balanced attack.
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Post by Coach Huey on Nov 21, 2005 21:28:08 GMT -6
Coach Huey, Your comment about a team needing to be more diversified to win consistently really dumbfounded me. I know that teams like Ennis and Southlake Carrol are the premier teams in TX right now, and the spread offenses are all the rage. However, I know for every Ennis that throws the ball 60-70% of the time and wins, there are 5 Converse Judsons, Smithson Valleys, Katys, etc. that run the ball 75-80% of the time and are always perennial powers. Do you really believe these type of teams are going to have to change there philosophies to win consitently? from the information i can gather: 2005 Southlake Carroll = 51% Run (1st 10 games = 323 runs / 313 passes) 2005 Smithson Valley = 65% Run (5 games, not in order, all blowouts) now, i ask you......where did you get your percentages? i'm not trying to instigate any type of arguement here.....but, if you "long-timers" of the board remember a discussion we had on here way back about putting validity to our posts rather than throwing out blanket statements you'll know where i'm coming from. southlake (for those in texas) is known as a "chunk it" school - one that passes it all the time all over the place. well, they can do that with the best in the country. but, because they CAN throw it so well, they don't have to......i would say they're pretty balanced. |
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Post by tog on Nov 21, 2005 21:35:59 GMT -6
the appearance of balance or the threat of it is just as good in my mind, so the 60/40 ratio rings true
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Post by Coach Huey on Nov 21, 2005 21:39:17 GMT -6
more facts:
ennis - 62% pass..........so far the the highest percentage i can find for a high school team. this is still below the 70% that has been thrown around. only texas tech & university of hawaii approach 70 (each has had years of 69%)
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Post by tog on Nov 21, 2005 21:56:31 GMT -6
i count the screens as runs though
ha
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Post by boblucy on Nov 21, 2005 22:08:05 GMT -6
I have a copy of the 1999 Texas 5-A Title game between Midland Lee and Aldine Eisnhower. The Lee Rebels won 42-21 by running Cedric Benson left, right, and up the middle on almost every play. A FB dive every so often, and a short crossing route every now and then, but Aldine Eisenhower was a great team and they KNEW Benson was going to get the ball on every play and could'nt stop him!!!! Balance was no factor, doing what they did best was all that mattered. I guess my point is that balance for the sake of balance is useless. In the 1986 Fiesta Bowl, Heisman winner Vinny Testaverde threw 5 ints vs. Penn State, but Miami continued to throw even though they were averaging 6 yards a carry on the ground because they totally believed in balance. It cost them a National Title........
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....ZERO.... no defense would let us. we were smart enough to realize that we could do other things. when averaged out - and we were considered a "chunk it" team - even our biggest differential was 59% pass for the season. some reasons it was under 60 (even though we wanted to throw) were:
